WHY convert?? Not HOW...

[Rolyasm 0]

Hello.

My 308 is in on the way. I have seen HOW to convert, but not so many reasons as to WHY? Is it ergonomically better with the handle, and if so, does the skeleton stock give you about the same feel? Is the tapco trigger better than the original? thanks for any ideas.

Roly

[bayonet lug 1]

because we can.................................at least for now.

[mstranglr 9]

Yep, your hunch was right, much better ergonomics - and a 1,000,000 times better trigger than the factory abortion. But, check the stickys in the 308 board because the Tapco has problems in the 308 reciever - I use the RSA trigger in my 308s.

 

Benefits of converting:

 

1) Better ergonomics converted

2) Converting opens the door for using a vastly improved trigger and getting far better accuracy

3) The rifle looks BAD-AZZ converted, and kind of cheesy unconverted

4) Converteing shortens the overall length of the rifle, making it easier to handle in confined environments

5) You really can not do rapid mag changes without a pistol grip

6) Converting opens the door for using the thousands of different AK accesories that are on the market

7) Converting gives you the mechanical knowlege and a better overall understanding of the AK system

8) Converting increases the value of the gun, should you decide to sell it later

 

Nagatives of converting:

 

1) You keep buying more Saigas to convert!

Edited January 13, 2009 by desert dog

[KySoldier 2]

First time you pull the trigger you'll want to convert; the 308 has the worst trigger of the whole Saiga series.

[mollysman420 19]

308 deffinetly has the worst trigger any after market trigger would be 1000 x better. DesertDog pretty well sums it up!

[22_Shooter 1,560]

1) Handles much better (for probably 99% of users anyway)

 

2) Trigger gets WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY better

 

3) To return the Saiga to what it (and most buyers) want it to be

 

4) Will probably net you more money, if you ever decide to sell it

 

5) Because its a fun little project, and when you're done, you can say "I did that"

 

6) Because for every Saiga that is bought, and not converted, 1 kitten and 1 puppy are killed...........brutally

[Rolyasm 0]

Thanks for all the replies. Good info. 2 more questions. Is RSA- Red Star Arms? Does using a skeleton stock give you about the same feel as the converted pistol grip? It looks like the Tapco's with the grips are at an awkward angle, but the skeletons are more perpendicular.

[nalioth 405]

Thanks for all the replies. Good info. 2 more questions. Is RSA- Red Star Arms? Does using a skeleton stock give you about the same feel as the converted pistol grip? It looks like the Tapco's with the grips are at an awkward angle, but the skeletons are more perpendicular.

RSA is Red Star Arms.

 

Using the Russian skeleton stock or other "no mods" solution does not enhance the ergonomics. The pistol grip is still aft of the receiver, instead of under it - where it belongs.

[cellsworth 21]

Desert Dog summed it up very well. I just wanted to mention that there is another excellent FCG option. Dinzag offers an FCG made specifically for the Saiga .308 that addresses all of the common FCG issues. You can look for it here.

[texasaktriggers 0]

Dinzag offers an FCG made specifically for the Saiga .308 that addresses all of the common FCG issues.

Our trigger set is a recent design and avoids the 'common FCG issues', as well.

[cellsworth 21]

Dinzag offers an FCG made specifically for the Saiga .308 that addresses all of the common FCG issues.

Our trigger set is a recent design and avoids the 'common FCG issues', as well.

 

The "common FCG issues" I am referring to are those peculiar to the Saiga .308. Your FCG looks great, but I don't see how it addresses the safety functioning, lateral trigger play, and BHO clearance issues like Dinzag's does. Also, since your FCG is a double hook design, it would be slightly more difficult to install. Again, I'm not knocking your fine product. I look forward to your introducing more AK products.

[mstranglr 9]

Dinzag offers an FCG made specifically for the Saiga .308 that addresses all of the common FCG issues.

Our trigger set is a recent design and avoids the 'common FCG issues', as well.

 

The "common FCG issues" I am referring to are those peculiar to the Saiga .308. Your FCG looks great, but I don't see how it addresses the safety functioning, lateral trigger play, and BHO clearance issues like Dinzag's does. Also, since your FCG is a double hook design, it would be slightly more difficult to install. Again, I'm not knocking your fine product. I look forward to your introducing more AK products.

 

Texas AK Triggers,

 

Make sure you do some testing with the .308 before you advertise your trigger for it (308 is different reciever and trigger system than other saigas). Many AK triggers are downright deadly in the Saiga 308. The first 308 I converted gave me a scary "oh sh!t" moment with a G2 trigger. The RSA trigger we use in the .308 is the Vepr model, not the AK model. If your trigger does work safely in the 308, that would be a great option for us on this board.

 

One of the links to this subject:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=11427

[Dunedain 44]

In the opinions of you fellows here on the forum, which FCG replacement (trigger, etc.) for a Saiga .308 AK military conversion is the best kind to get? And what is it about that specific brand of FCG that you think makes it the best for a Saiga .308 conversion? I'm talking about triggers that come as, or can be set to operates as, two-stage triggers, for a proper AK military two-stage trigger setup.

 

I've seen these Red Star Arms triggers/FCG's mentioned in several places as being good, what's the reason that so many like the FCG's made by them? I think I read all their FCG parts were milled, is that correct?

 

As to the question of why to convert a Russian Saiga; because the mere sight of an AK-47 (or variant) that's been put into some idiotic "sporting" setup for the sole purpose of complying with unconstitutional rules put in place by commie trash, makes me feel ill. Thus it must be put back into a proper military configuration at the first opportunity. And I know many others feel the same way. Hey, you asked.

[CR1 0]

I don't see what's so great about the original AK set-up. I don't like pistol grips, they give me worse handling.

 

Moisin-Nagants, Lee-Enfields, M1903's, M1917's, M1 Garands, M1 carbines, M14 and M1A's, BAR's; all these weapons functioned perfectly fine with straight and semi-pistol grip stocks in killing massive numbers of Nazis. I personally think that when running across a street or crawling in mud that old-fashioned stocks work much better than pistol grip long guns.

 

People in the late 1800's didn't seem to have much of a problem operating lever action carbines either.

 

The Army made me use an M16A2, and it was OK at best. It was a little annoying at times, especially because it moves your wrist in funny angles when marching with body armor. For the pistol grip to be any good in handling you need a very light weapon, a very light round (i.e. 5.56) with very light recoil, and have the best reason: body armor that pretty much requires the adjustable stock of the M4 system.

 

And aside from all the NATO length after-market AK stocks, the original Russian ones are short and annoying, they remind me of this annoying French bolt-action I once fired; very uncomfortable. The original stocks were made for underfed communist soldiers wearing thick heavy wool coats.

 

When I first fired the Saiga 7.62x39 I let out a sigh of relief that somebody thought of the idea of putting a sporter stock onto the AK design. But with all this I'm still open to the idea of a NATO-length butt stock and a rubber-coated pistol grip on my .308, if I didn't have to put down money for something I really don't need.

[mstranglr 9]

I don't see what's so great about the original AK set-up. I don't like pistol grips, they give me worse handling.

 

Moisin-Nagants, Lee-Enfields, M1903's, M1917's, M1 Garands, M1 carbines, M14 and M1A's, BAR's; all these weapons functioned perfectly fine with straight and semi-pistol grip stocks in killing massive numbers of Nazis. I personally think that when running across a street or crawling in mud that old-fashioned stocks work much better than pistol grip long guns.

 

People in the late 1800's didn't seem to have much of a problem operating lever action carbines either.

 

The Army made me use an M16A2, and it was OK at best. It was a little annoying at times, especially because it moves your wrist in funny angles when marching with body armor. For the pistol grip to be any good in handling you need a very light weapon, a very light round (i.e. 5.56) with very light recoil, and have the best reason: body armor that pretty much requires the adjustable stock of the M4 system.

 

And aside from all the NATO length after-market AK stocks, the original Russian ones are short and annoying, they remind me of this annoying French bolt-action I once fired; very uncomfortable. The original stocks were made for underfed communist soldiers wearing thick heavy wool coats.

 

When I first fired the Saiga 7.62x39 I let out a sigh of relief that somebody thought of the idea of putting a sporter stock onto the AK design. But with all this I'm still open to the idea of a NATO-length butt stock and a rubber-coated pistol grip on my .308, if I didn't have to put down money for something I really don't need.

 

Comparing a Garand, Mosin, and SMLE to an assault rifle is like comparing a bus to a mini-van. The AK is an asault rifle and handles 10 times better for function and length in PG configuration. Even modern sniper rifles and shotguns are going the way of the pistol grip for better ergonomics, recoil reduction, shorter rifle length and length of pull, and handling.

 

The Warsaw length stock was decades ahead of its time. Notice that stocks on modern military carbines are getting close to Warsaw length. Notice all those M4s in Iraq, being used with the stock fully compressed - making it shorter than a warsaw stock. Sure gear, clothing and body armor favor a short stock, but short assault rifles in intermediate calibers have revolutionized Close quarters combat to the point where they have even taken over the pistol's role in many respects. Folks can be stuck in the days of the M14 and Ganrand if they want, but other than specialized purposes (DMR), the dont fit the needs of the modern battlefield.

[CR1 0]

Desert dog, doesn't this whole body armor and gear thing bring up a further gap between civilian and military weapons? Semiautomatic submachine guns are almost completely useless as a civilian when compared to full-sized handguns. We also can't use 3 round burst or fully automatic anything, except if you have a lot of money or live out in the country.

 

In civilian life I don't see myself wearing tons or body armor and heavy gear comparable to what a soldier wears on a patrol. I see myself as hunting, home defense, or in some weird situation having to defend the streets. I think the idea of a personal defense weapon is good, but I'd only use it for backup, not as a main rifle as a civilian. These personal defense weapons are all nice and good, but I don't think they would work very well for anything more than close quarters battles, which in case I'd use a shotgun as a civilian. We have a large choice of weapons while soldiers have only a small handful of infantry weapons, the M4, M249, M9, Super 90, and M203 being the only ones I can think of right now for regular close quarters battles.

 

Also with the whole rock and lock placement of the AK mag, especially with something as heavy as the saiga .308, chances are you're going to put the end of the butt stock under your armpit while you load another magazine, so that wouldn't change with or without a pistol grip.

 

But as I said before, I'm still open to the idea. It could be that I'm just completely not used to pistol long guns other than the AR-15 design. Last time I fired a semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun with a pistol grip I didn't like it because it put annoying amounts of pressure on my wrist. And last time I fired an original AK-47 I didn't like it because the butt was too short. It's not that the semi-pistol and straight stocks are outdated, it's that they are for different people, different purposes, and different weapons.

[mstranglr 9]

Desert dog, doesn't this whole body armor and gear thing bring up a further gap between civilian and military weapons? Semiautomatic submachine guns are almost completely useless as a civilian when compared to full-sized handguns. We also can't use 3 round burst or fully automatic anything, except if you have a lot of money or live out in the country.

 

In civilian life I don't see myself wearing tons or body armor and heavy gear comparable to what a soldier wears on a patrol. I see myself as hunting, home defense, or in some weird situation having to defend the streets. I think the idea of a personal defense weapon is good, but I'd only use it for backup, not as a main rifle as a civilian. These personal defense weapons are all nice and good, but I don't think they would work very well for anything more than close quarters battles, which in case I'd use a shotgun as a civilian. We have a large choice of weapons while soldiers have only a small handful of infantry weapons, the M4, M249, M9, Super 90, and M203 being the only ones I can think of right now for regular close quarters battles.

 

Also with the whole rock and lock placement of the AK mag, especially with something as heavy as the saiga .308, chances are you're going to put the end of the butt stock under your armpit while you load another magazine, so that wouldn't change with or without a pistol grip.

 

But as I said before, I'm still open to the idea. It could be that I'm just completely not used to pistol long guns other than the AR-15 design. Last time I fired a semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun with a pistol grip I didn't like it because it put annoying amounts of pressure on my wrist. And last time I fired an original AK-47 I didn't like it because the butt was too short. It's not that the semi-pistol and straight stocks are outdated, it's that they are for different people, different purposes, and different weapons.

 

Agreed that personal preference and comfort are big considerations.

 

Facts show that the overwhelming majority of all civilian denfenive use of the rifle have occured in the home. I would rather be "slicing the pie", taking corners, and clearing rooms with that warsaw stocked AK or short shotgun than with a Garand or Mosin any day. Ive done a lot of work training in shoot-houses, and those long non-PG guns are at a huge disadvantage both in execution and in retention.

 

You are very wrong in assuming that these modern carbines are only good for close qarters battle. I sugest you take a tactical carbine class, as all of them will teach you to shoot accurately out to at least 200 yards, even with an AK, and even beginers are doing it by the end of class. I hit the 400 yard gong regularly with all of my M4 clones, and those in the military do it every time with boring regularity.

 

If you are interested in the AK platform, I highly suggest you learn to do mag changes - under the arm is not how you do it. One of the strengths of the PG is much faster mag changes. There are lots of videos, books, and media explaining how to run the AK system available if you don't have access to training.

 

If the gun is for hunting or target shooting - all of the weapons mentioned in this thread are poor choices.

[CR1 0]

Desert dog, I practiced some mag changes with my saiga .308 and found that I ended up doing them like the tactical M1A mag changes. As for pistol against semi-pistol grips, my experience has shown me that with practice I can do the same room clearing exercises with any firearm with a barrel 18 inches and under. I've been a big fan of carbines ever since having to carry and do room clearing exercises with the M16.

 

My wording was pretty bad in that I said the modern US weapons are ONLY good for close quarters battles. It's more that I'm not wearing a MICH helmet and an IBA in the civilian world and happen to be more partial towards traditional stocks. Now I'm convinced that both stock styles are pretty much the same. With more practice I can probably get the same fast target acquisition and accurate first and follow up shots with an M4 and S308 regardless of the stock; and just as fast and accurate a first shot with a nagant carbine.