AK86 1 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) Yesterday was my first day at the range. I wanted to do everything right,, so I read over the manuel about 4 times and prepared the rifle according to the manual (wiped the libricant from the barrel bore and chamber by pushing 4-5 pieces of cleaning pads through it). The Ammo I was shooting was Silver Bear .308 145g. Now, keep in mind that my friend shoots the same ammo from his .308 with no problem. I on the other hand, had about 5-6 jams (in 40 rounds that I fired) with that same ammo form the same store. And I only had the ammo in my closet for 2 days, so no way did it get wet or anything. When it jammed, it seemed like the casing had trouble doing in and put of the chamber... I stripped the rifle down at home yesterday and found no damage and everything seems ok. O cleaned everything out, put it back together and everything is working properly... Is there a place that i need to lubricate to prevent future jams or is that a problem with ammo, I mean I thougt I was buying an AK-type weapon that should have virtually no jams and having 5 or 6 of them through only 40 rounds was embarrasing... Thanks in advance. Edited January 26, 2009 by AK86 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
747mech 1 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Sounds like a buildup of preservative or something in the chamber. Sometimes the bolt carrier hangs up going over the hammer. Polishing the mating surfaces and a little oil might work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I think you might have had more cosmoline to clean off. I didn't bother to read the intructions when I bought my .308 new but the first thing I did was strip it down and clean all the preservative off it. There was a LOT of it inside the receiver and the bolt carrier group. I used a judicious amount of CLP, pipe cleaners, and I think at one point I resorted to WD-40 to flush some of it off. If I had not done that prior to shooting it (or even with just going with the recommended 4-5 patches down the bore) it would have jammed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I think you might have had more cosmoline to clean off. I didn't bother to read the intructions when I bought my .308 new but the first thing I did was strip it down and clean all the preservative off it. There was a LOT of it inside the receiver and the bolt carrier group. I used a judicious amount of CLP, pipe cleaners, and I think at one point I resorted to WD-40 to flush some of it off. If I had not done that prior to shooting it (or even with just going with the recommended 4-5 patches down the bore) it would have jammed. Oh, I see, thank you. So basically the best way to prevent this from ever happening is to take the rifle apart entirely again and clean the living **** out of it? p.s. Is motor oil ok to lubricate the barrel bore? Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loki0629 55 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 AK86, I think someone here had posted that motor oil is a good preventative on steel parts. Something about doing a better job soaking into the material. Personally, I stick with CLP because I'm more familiar with it. I'm not saying that the preservative was what caused your jam, however it sounds like it might be given that you just bought the rifle and had only run a few patches through it. If you take a closer look at the bolt and the parts in the receiver, look for some small gooey clumps, especially in the small crevices. If they are there, then that might be the problem. Take a light down into the bore too and see if you can spot any potential problems there. Alternatively, try buying a different brand of ammo and see if that works better. My rifle isn't a finicky eater though so I'd be surprised if it was the Silver Bear. I should also add that since that initial cleaning, I don't clean the weapon as much or as thoroughly and I haven't had any failures to feed, fire, or eject. I shoot mostly Wolf and Winchester White Box. I've shot Federal and Silver Bear too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 One thing you might check is the fired cases themselves. When I got my first 308 saiga a few months ago I took it out and fired 145gr silver bear through it. I had several james and one time it jammed so bad the top of the case was gouged and powder was pouring out. I contacted RAAC and they told me the bottom of some of the 308 bolts were not polished/ground correctly. This caused the bolt to cycle very roughly and even damage the top of rounds in the magazine. Do a search of round gouging and the topic should come up. look at some of the fired round cases or try to hand cycle some rounds through your firearm and look for excessive drag marks or gouging on the rounds. I had to send my firearm back to RAAC for repair. It works perfect now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 One thing you might check is the fired cases themselves. When I got my first 308 saiga a few months ago I took it out and fired 145gr silver bear through it. I had several james and one time it jammed so bad the top of the case was gouged and powder was pouring out. I contacted RAAC and they told me the bottom of some of the 308 bolts were not polished/ground correctly. This caused the bolt to cycle very roughly and even damage the top of rounds in the magazine. Do a search of round gouging and the topic should come up. look at some of the fired round cases or try to hand cycle some rounds through your firearm and look for excessive drag marks or gouging on the rounds. I had to send my firearm back to RAAC for repair. It works perfect now. OMG!!! I think I have the exact same problem that you are describing. When I manually ejected one round, I took a look at adn and there was a little dent (very tiny) near the narrowere neck where casing meets the bullet... Also, when I move the "cocking handle" (sorry for lack on terms), back and forth, it is somewhat tight... Should I start contacting RAAC or is it safe to clean the rifle thoroughly and try to fire it again? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 When my first Saiga 308 was jamming the charging handle was difficult to move back and forth while manually loading or unloading cartridges. This was due to the third locking lug on the bottom of the bolt dragging the top cartridge in the magazine. I bought a second 308 Saiga and although I have not measured them the bottom locking lug on that bolt looks shorter than the first one (meaning it does not protrude down as far). Now, both rifles do leave faint drag marks on the top cartridge of the magazine but they do not dent them. The first 308 Saiga, before being sent back to RAAC, did nick the cartridges where the bullet meets the case neck and it would deeply gouge the shoulder of the cartridge. Sometimes to the point of riping the case open. And my rifle was not the only one doing this. I spoke with "Clyde" at RAAC and he explained this has been a problem area with some 308 Saiga firearms. RAAC sent me a shipping number which paid for S&H to them. The firearm was returned within about 1 week, fixed, with an extra magazine, a couple of drink holders and a $20.00 coupon from RAAC. They were very professional. I would contact them first before any more cleaning or firing. I'm sure most people on this forum are good people and well intentioned but RAAC are the professionals and should know their product better than anyone else. Good luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 By the way AK86...where the red arrow is pointing to in your illustration is where my first saiga 308 was denting and occasionally ripping open the cartridge cases. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 By the way AK86...where the red arrow is pointing to in your illustration is where my first saiga 308 was denting and occasionally ripping open the cartridge cases. Grr... I knew there was going to be something wrong, as usual... I will give thema call first thing in the morning. Thank you for your help, t165!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 BTW, t165, you mentioned that the bolt or w/e was actually dragging on the rounds in the magazine and that's what was causing some resistance in travel. The thing is that my rifle's action is not that smooth even with magazine out and no rounds in the chamber... :-( Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 That is different from my Saiga's. With no cartridges loaded in mine the bolt cycles pretty smooth. Much smoother than my Romanian WASR. I have (2) Yugo AK underfolders and both my Saiga's feel more like them. The Romanian has sticking points. I'm certainly no expert and I was only relaying my own personal experience with my Saiga 308. I'm sure the good folks at RAAC will be able to tell you how to remedy the problem or fix your firearm for you. I hated to part with my 308 but it was back in no time at all. I have a lot of firearms and I have been a bolt guy forever but I must admit my 16' 308 Saiga's are way cool! My new favorite toys! 308 power and not a pain in the a** to clean like my CETME. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 That is different from my Saiga's. With no cartridges loaded in mine the bolt cycles pretty smooth. Much smoother than my Romanian WASR. I have (2) Yugo AK underfolders and both my Saiga's feel more like them. The Romanian has sticking points. I'm certainly no expert and I was only relaying my own personal experience with my Saiga 308. I'm sure the good folks at RAAC will be able to tell you how to remedy the problem or fix your firearm for you. I hated to part with my 308 but it was back in no time at all. I have a lot of firearms and I have been a bolt guy forever but I must admit my 16' 308 Saiga's are way cool! My new favorite toys! 308 power and not a pain in the a** to clean like my CETME. Yeah, so today, i went to the gun store, bought a bunch or chemicals for cleaning guns. Cleaned the hell out of that thing so that I would not even hesistate to feed newly born children milk out of it. Then i lubricated the bolt and the rails that the whole action rides on. Put the main string in and the thing was cyclingback and forth smoother than anyone could hope for... Until i filled my magazine with 4 dummy rounds, clicked it in and tried to locka dn load it... You can CLEARLY see the scratch marks on the top cartridge in the magazine from the bolt. And if you get licky and get to move the bolt back all the way, it get the cartridge out of the mag and doesn;t go in entirely into the chamber... There is stilla bout 1/2" to go... I called RAAC today and left a message describing my problem. I am getting mighty irritated at this point because I thought I was buying a firearm that it bred from the most reliable assault rifle in the world... If god forbid and my gun jams when the bear is running at me... you get the point... This is complete BS!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 That is different from my Saiga's. With no cartridges loaded in mine the bolt cycles pretty smooth. Much smoother than my Romanian WASR. I have (2) Yugo AK underfolders and both my Saiga's feel more like them. The Romanian has sticking points. I'm certainly no expert and I was only relaying my own personal experience with my Saiga 308. I'm sure the good folks at RAAC will be able to tell you how to remedy the problem or fix your firearm for you. I hated to part with my 308 but it was back in no time at all. I have a lot of firearms and I have been a bolt guy forever but I must admit my 16' 308 Saiga's are way cool! My new favorite toys! 308 power and not a pain in the a** to clean like my CETME. You cn clearly see the damage/scratches on the cartridges where the bolt hits them... p.s. dummy rounds were brand new out of the bow with NO damage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I understand your frustration. It's disappointing. From vehicles, to computers, to firearms and everything in between, I've had brand new products that needed repairing. It's that Murphy's Law thing! I hope RAAC repairs your firearm to your satisfaction. It sure appears that your Saiga is suffering from the same ailment mine had. The remedy is easy and re-boxing the firearm was only a 5 minute job. These keep going up in price and one member on this forum predicts this time next year these rifles may cost upwards of $1000.00. I tend to agree with him. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 The dents from fired cases are from extraction... NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHAMBER! See the stickied section in the X39 section... It explains it all... NO WORRIES!!!! Dented cases are TYPICAL OF AN AK PLATFORM!!!! Also, you will get a minor scuffing from the bolt carrier sliding over rounds in the magazine... Its NORMAL!!!! NO WORRIES there either... what you have to worry about is WILL THE ROUND chamber fully??? I would say test fire some more... It seems to me that you are over reacting to a minor problem that will most likely go away... Are you using FACTORY 308 mags? Or a different magazine? That too could be the problem... if the magazine has a hiccup on the front edge... that could affect feed geometry and cause jamming... Yall need to relax, and think about the problem before jumping all over the "my rifle is broke" bandwagon. The sky is NOT falling! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yugritin 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) my 308 has a similar problem i just finished converting it this past weekend. now it is gouging the case(right where the casing necks down) deeper than before and jamming!when I work the bolt by hand the action seems stiffer than before like something is catching on something. explanation please? and since it has been converted I assume there goes the warranty? Edited January 28, 2009 by yugritin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 The dents from fired cases are from extraction... NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHAMBER! See the stickied section in the X39 section... It explains it all... NO WORRIES!!!! Dented cases are TYPICAL OF AN AK PLATFORM!!!! Also, you will get a minor scuffing from the bolt carrier sliding over rounds in the magazine... Its NORMAL!!!! NO WORRIES there either... what you have to worry about is WILL THE ROUND chamber fully??? I would say test fire some more... It seems to me that you are over reacting to a minor problem that will most likely go away... Are you using FACTORY 308 mags? Or a different magazine? That too could be the problem... if the magazine has a hiccup on the front edge... that could affect feed geometry and cause jamming... Yall need to relax, and think about the problem before jumping all over the "my rifle is broke" bandwagon. The sky is NOT falling! no, the round does NOT chamber fully and I am using the factory 8rd magazine that we are allowed to ahve here in cali... :-( Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yugritin 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 same here Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 With the rifle field stripped, can you see anything that causes the round to hang up in the chamber? Can you take any pics by chance of the chamber area? These are the problems I wish I could hold in my hand to look at and actually SEE whats going on in there, cause descriptions just dont do justice when you have problems... kinda like calling the mechanic for your car and saying " I hear a clunk"... Is there a small burr from machining? Some rounds will chamber, as you said you fired off 40 rounds but had like 4 or 5 jams that felt like they wouldnt feed properly... This my REALLY sound UNUSUAL... however... Is it possible that those rounds got damaged in shipping??? If that ammo was DROPPED in shipping... And we are talking about a 40 pound box here... it is very possible that some rounds got SLIGHT DEFORMATIONS on them and were not truly round... and that would cause them to not feed or chamber properly... I used to do shipping where I work... It's VERY likely some poor sap dropped the box on the floor, or it was tossed onto a conveyor and a few of the rounds on the bottom got messed up... That is the only thing I can think of, if you were able to fire off 35 out of 40 rounds with no problems in the 35... but the other 5 wouldnt chamber... Check your ammo... see if any of the ones you have left arent concentric... If you can differentiate between the boxes, maybe you will see if some are out of round, and that would be the problem right there... Do the snap caps CHAMBER fine? Yes, they may get a scrape from the bolt, but thats not unusual... If they chamber fine, I would suspect the ammo is the culprit... I cant imagine why most would work fine, unless it was an AMMO problem, instead of a chamber/rifle problem. Check and see... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 With the rifle field stripped, can you see anything that causes the round to hang up in the chamber? Can you take any pics by chance of the chamber area? These are the problems I wish I could hold in my hand to look at and actually SEE whats going on in there, cause descriptions just dont do justice when you have problems... kinda like calling the mechanic for your car and saying " I hear a clunk"... Is there a small burr from machining? Some rounds will chamber, as you said you fired off 40 rounds but had like 4 or 5 jams that felt like they wouldnt feed properly... This my REALLY sound UNUSUAL... however... Is it possible that those rounds got damaged in shipping??? If that ammo was DROPPED in shipping... And we are talking about a 40 pound box here... it is very possible that some rounds got SLIGHT DEFORMATIONS on them and were not truly round... and that would cause them to not feed or chamber properly... I used to do shipping where I work... It's VERY likely some poor sap dropped the box on the floor, or it was tossed onto a conveyor and a few of the rounds on the bottom got messed up... That is the only thing I can think of, if you were able to fire off 35 out of 40 rounds with no problems in the 35... but the other 5 wouldnt chamber... Check your ammo... see if any of the ones you have left arent concentric... If you can differentiate between the boxes, maybe you will see if some are out of round, and that would be the problem right there... Do the snap caps CHAMBER fine? Yes, they may get a scrape from the bolt, but thats not unusual... If they chamber fine, I would suspect the ammo is the culprit... I cant imagine why most would work fine, unless it was an AMMO problem, instead of a chamber/rifle problem. Check and see... no, snap caps are chambering A LOT worse than the actual ammo (I was shooting silver bear that has steel casing). I will upload a few images in about 15 min... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 With the rifle field stripped, can you see anything that causes the round to hang up in the chamber? Can you take any pics by chance of the chamber area? These are the problems I wish I could hold in my hand to look at and actually SEE whats going on in there, cause descriptions just dont do justice when you have problems... kinda like calling the mechanic for your car and saying " I hear a clunk"... Is there a small burr from machining? Some rounds will chamber, as you said you fired off 40 rounds but had like 4 or 5 jams that felt like they wouldnt feed properly... This my REALLY sound UNUSUAL... however... Is it possible that those rounds got damaged in shipping??? If that ammo was DROPPED in shipping... And we are talking about a 40 pound box here... it is very possible that some rounds got SLIGHT DEFORMATIONS on them and were not truly round... and that would cause them to not feed or chamber properly... I used to do shipping where I work... It's VERY likely some poor sap dropped the box on the floor, or it was tossed onto a conveyor and a few of the rounds on the bottom got messed up... That is the only thing I can think of, if you were able to fire off 35 out of 40 rounds with no problems in the 35... but the other 5 wouldnt chamber... Check your ammo... see if any of the ones you have left arent concentric... If you can differentiate between the boxes, maybe you will see if some are out of round, and that would be the problem right there... Do the snap caps CHAMBER fine? Yes, they may get a scrape from the bolt, but thats not unusual... If they chamber fine, I would suspect the ammo is the culprit... I cant imagine why most would work fine, unless it was an AMMO problem, instead of a chamber/rifle problem. Check and see... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ArcFault 4 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Out of curiosity, do you have your gas tube properly in place with the locking lever all of the way down while you are hand cycling? Is your gas block severely canted? Sometimes the piston can catch on the gas block. Otherwise see if you can hand feed a cartridge into the chamber with the bolt and carrier removed. It should go in most of the way with just enough of the rear of the case protruding for the extractor claw to hold the rim. The dents and dings aren't really uncommon and shouldn't be a problem unless they are severe enough to tear the brass, but if you can't solve this, warranty work in in order. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Did you say this was a NEW rifle??? From the looks of it, the finish on the bolt carrier looks to be rather worn in spots! I dunno... Maybe thats just me... I wish I could tell from the pics of the chamber area... but I cannot... can you maybe post one or two... of how far the snap cap will chamber before it hangs up? Thats just weird... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Out of curiosity, do you have your gas tube properly in place with the locking lever all of the way down while you are hand cycling? Is your gas block severely canted? Sometimes the piston can catch on the gas block. Otherwise see if you can hand feed a cartridge into the chamber with the bolt and carrier removed. It should go in most of the way with just enough of the rear of the case protruding for the extractor claw to hold the rim. The dents and dings aren't really uncommon and shouldn't be a problem unless they are severe enough to tear the brass, but if you can't solve this, warranty work in in order. When hand feeding with magazine NOT installed, everything workds fine, chambers the round and throws it out almost to Nevada... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Did you say this was a NEW rifle??? From the looks of it, the finish on the bolt carrier looks to be rather worn in spots! I dunno... Maybe thats just me... I wish I could tell from the pics of the chamber area... but I cannot... can you maybe post one or two... of how far the snap cap will chamber before it hangs up? Thats just weird... with 2 snap caps in the magazine, the rifle SOMETIMES grab the top one and chambers it until it has about 1/2" to go... The rifle seemed brand new. When i took it out of the box, there was no scratch where the safely travels, so i was the first one to scratch it. AND when i took out the piston, the face of it was like a mirror. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Mooseman started a thread back in December titled "round gouging on 308". The last post was December 23rd. Look back a couple of pages on this forum and you will find the thread. He included pictures of a damaged cartridge. He also included pictures of the bolt and what he polished/ground to make the firearm run smoothly. My Saiga was doing the exact same thing his was. He chose to fix his firearm himself and I chose to send mine back to RAAC for repair. RAAC has admitted some 308 Saiga firearms have a problem with an unfinished bolt. This may or may not be the problem with your firearm. Perhaps looking at the pictures mooseman posted and reading his posts may help you in solving the problems you are having with your firearm. Indyarms is correct that the sides of the cases will be dented when fired...at least in my rifles. I believe they are hitting the sides of the dust cover when ejecting. And both of my Saigas will leave a faint drag mark on the top cartridge in the magazine. That is normal. Ripping brass and steel case ammunition open so the powder pours out is not normal. While most people on this forum are well meaning and trying to be helpful there comes a time when an actual professional needs to be contacted before the firearm is damaged further or a dangerous situation occurs. The question I posed to RAAC was...since I was shooting steel cased Silver Bear when the round was ripped open...could the steel of the bolt carrier ripping open the steel cased ammo cause a spark which might ignite the exposed powder and cause an out of battery explosion? I carried a gun on my hip for a living. I saw many injuries and death from the misuse and mishandling of firearms. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do or come off like a jerk but I also don't wish to see anyone injured from a faulty weapon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=31277 Mooseman started a thread back in December titled "round gouging on 308". The last post was December 23rd. Look back a couple of pages on this forum and you will find the thread. He included pictures of a damaged cartridge. He also included pictures of the bolt and what he polished/ground to make the firearm run smoothly. My Saiga was doing the exact same thing his was. He chose to fix his firearm himself and I chose to send mine back to RAAC for repair. RAAC has admitted some 308 Saiga firearms have a problem with an unfinished bolt. This may or may not be the problem with your firearm. Perhaps looking at the pictures mooseman posted and reading his posts may help you in solving the problems you are having with your firearm. Indyarms is correct that the sides of the cases will be dented when fired...at least in my rifles. I believe they are hitting the sides of the dust cover when ejecting. And both of my Saigas will leave a faint drag mark on the top cartridge in the magazine. That is normal. Ripping brass and steel case ammunition open so the powder pours out is not normal. While most people on this forum are well meaning and trying to be helpful there comes a time when an actual professional needs to be contacted before the firearm is damaged further or a dangerous situation occurs. The question I posed to RAAC was...since I was shooting steel cased Silver Bear when the round was ripped open...could the steel of the bolt carrier ripping open the steel cased ammo cause a spark which might ignite the exposed powder and cause an out of battery explosion? I carried a gun on my hip for a living. I saw many injuries and death from the misuse and mishandling of firearms. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do or come off like a jerk but I also don't wish to see anyone injured from a faulty weapon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Thanks cma g21! I'm not smart enought to figure out how to do that! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cma g21 3 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Thanks cma g21! I'm not smart enought to figure out how to do that! I still had that page open in another window when I saw your post (so I figured I'd post the link before I forgot where I found it). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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