Saiga 12 Tactics and Techniques: Combat Reloads

[x_man586 7]

I am hoping that the bad guy is so awestruck by the rapid fire of the shotgun that I have all the time in the world to fumble with the mags. In all honesty I just figured the trick to loading with the bolt closed. I was able to get the 5 round mag to load first and then it was pretty easy to do the 10 rd agp's. The BEST method is the one you can do quickly and have the least chance of messing up.

[GTwannabe 1]

Is there a trick or technique to loading full mags on a closed bolt reliably? I always end up stovepiping the top round or fussing with it for a second or two...I figured I was saving time and doing a more reliable reload by locking the bolt to the rear.

 

Thanks!

 

Yes. Hook the front lip of the mag on the front of the magwell. Push hard forward while rocking the mag into place. The top shell will cam downward against the bolt.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

y'all need to check out Gabe Suarez's Combat Shotgun video......

Some pretty cool techniques used on reload...

[Saleig 0]

I must not be practicing enough. It seems like I can never load on a close bolt.

 

I was having trouble with the bolt actually hanging up and having FTE's. I took out the dremel today and after following the advice of others here in this forum and filing and polishing there are no more hangs ups. I will have to try and see if my tinkering has made it easier to load on a closed bolt and fixed the FTE's.

I cleaned, polished, lubed and checked the gas ports too. Tomorrow I will have to test 'er out..

 

I have been lurking on this forum since 2005, learning the ins and outs regarding the Saiga 12. I finally joined the board as a member recently and have started to have more confidence doing work on the gun. Generally I am pretty dangerous with anything more sophisticated than a screwdriver, but that is slowly changing. Maybe I am becoming more patient or just don't worry as much if I screw something up. Anyway, this board and its step by step instructions with pics is very helpful. Thanks to all!

[corbin 621]

I've often wondered why the Army didn't teach reaching over the receiver (Israeli style) compared to the Russian style of reaching under. I was told that it was because it would be harder to do if you had optics mounted, but most Kalashnikov weapons I'd seen in the Military (except the SVD) didn't have optics mounted. To me, it seemed reaching over would be easier when prone and when the weapon was at the shoulder. Still, If I had to reload right handed, I'd probably reach under, just because that's how I was trained.

 

Perhaps it might be easier for most folks reaching under when it's at high port-arms (diagonally in front of you with the barrel tilted up), but that's it, IMO. Of course, now that I'm a lefty, the charging handle is right there to grab with my right hand. So it's a bit of a moot point for me now.

 

Still, the BHO vs. the no BHO reload is something I'm currently debating with myself. I'm probably going to do the bolt mod Tony showed. If that's enough to make up for my limited use of my right thumb, I'll likely go the no BHO route. Time will tell.

 

 

Corbin

[second shooter 22]

"Except for 3 gun matches, I haven't seen anyone that could accurately keep track of "was that 18 or 19 rounds?" while being shot at and or having to kill others and possibly deal with buddies that got wounded, or being hurt yourself. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying that nobody in my Ranger unit was able to do it under the stress of actual combat...."

 

 

Corbin,

 

I think you're right on the mark. Under fire and with SHtF, round count is the last thing you're ganna be concentrating on. This is why I also suggested a "Next to last round" Tracer or Whislter round. For you guys shooting Hi Caps maybe the 5th and 4th from last round. Downside to the tracer is that the "tangos" may be able to trace it back to you. A Whistler can give you away, but if you're already shooting....? Question is, Will YOU hear it?

 

I realize the LRBHO has been the standard for decades, but there has to be something better. How many people have been shot, trying to shoot with an empty chamber and open bolt?

 

I am trying to come up with a simple mod that can be done to most any gun/mag. One thought being a "Smart mag" with a sensor strip that plugs into a gun mounted lead to a light, just under the rear sight, that changes from (as you mentioned) green to yellow to red as you empty the mag. Downside is.....That itty bitty LED light can be picked up by a sniper several hundred yards away. Hmmm, perhaps we need a rheostat(sp), lol.

 

My Taurus PT-145 has a mechanical "Round in the Chamber" Indicator, but that doesn't tell me when I'm down to my last couple of rounds. A mechanical indicator would be nice and I'm working on that too. Think OLD Loony Tunes, with a flag sticking up telling you "Hey dumb A$$, You're bout out of Ammo!!!",

LOL.

 

Thanks for the feedback,

Mikel

Hi Mikel, do you have any more info on those whistler rounds?, can they be made up or are they a factory bought round ? sounds interesting and might scare the opposition at the 3 gun comp.

[G O B 3,516]

I'm a huge lover of a hasty sling so heres how i do it...

 

1: Use thumb to rack bolt back with right hand, use middle finger to hold BHO while moving bolt foward with thumb.

2: Release mag with right hand

3: Grab new mag with right hand and rock and lock.

 

if you don't care about your mags you can smack the old one out with the new one. But for what its worth this weapon, along with many others was made for your left hand to be in a sling supporting the weapon. Having your hand on the grip finger on the trigger does you no good with no ammo. use your off hand to do the easy job of suporting the weapon, and use your strong hand to do everything it should do anyway.

 

Suprise! it works! I even use a hasty sling with my AR and get funny looks at the range... its crazy...

 

I do all AK's that way, but I'm not a run around shoot 'em up guy. I'm a stand my ground and go down fighting type. Mainly because I can't run worth a damn. I just keep a 'combat' grip with my left and do the rest right handed. If you were actually in a shooting back situation, you would be best served changing mags with your left shoulder firmly pressed behind a tree or door jamb!

[Patriot12 11]

I've been playing with different ways of doing speed reloads (reload w/o retention/combat reload/emergency reload/whatever you want to call that). I think I have settled on the following method:

 

1-Left hand hits mag release with thumb

2-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt back (right holds BHO)

3-Left hand grabs new mag and loads it

4-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt (now ready to fire)

 

I'm trying to do it as fast as possible, minimize movements, and keep it simple enough that your "inner monkey" can do it when you're under pressure, while trying to use the support hand for support and keeping the firing hand on the pistol grip. Without LRBHO, and because it's really tough to get a full mag in on a closed bolt, there are a few movements that you wouldn't have with something like an AR-15, so...

 

How do you do it?

 

-MoF

 

Here's what I THINK it should look like (this is NOT me):

 

Recommended change to #2 and #4. Instead of reaching under, reach over with left hand and rack the bolt with left pinky finger.

I really think that it is quicker to reach over the weapon than under as noted above.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Patriot12

[Patriot12 11]

I've often wondered why the Army didn't teach reaching over the receiver (Israeli style) compared to the Russian style of reaching under. I was told that it was because it would be harder to do if you had optics mounted, but most Kalashnikov weapons I'd seen in the Military (except the SVD) didn't have optics mounted. To me, it seemed reaching over would be easier when prone and when the weapon was at the shoulder. Still, If I had to reload right handed, I'd probably reach under, just because that's how I was trained.

 

Perhaps it might be easier for most folks reaching under when it's at high port-arms (diagonally in front of you with the barrel tilted up), but that's it, IMO. Of course, now that I'm a lefty, the charging handle is right there to grab with my right hand. So it's a bit of a moot point for me now.

 

Still, the BHO vs. the no BHO reload is something I'm currently debating with myself. I'm probably going to do the bolt mod Tony showed. If that's enough to make up for my limited use of my right thumb, I'll likely go the no BHO route. Time will tell.

 

 

Corbin

I do have a Kobra Red Dot on mine and it still seems quicker to reach over and use my left pinky to rack the bolt. I do have to tilt the weapon slightly, but it seems the best way. Especially firing from the prone. Note: I am right handed.

[Gunfixr 76]

As for trying to fire a weapon with an open bolt and empty chamber, every one I've used has a noticeably different feel to the recoil on the last shot when the bolt locks open. To me, that's the "your gun is empty" indicator.

 

As for round counting, I forget most of the time in 3-gun comp, I can only imagine trying to do it under fire.

 

I have a drum now, so I'm working on an easy way to load w/ bolt closed, as it's follower isn't likely to work with a LRBHO. My mag fence helped greatly with loading on a closed bolt, but won't work with a drum either. I have a couple guns with a forward mag catch, might play with that. It allows a reverse rock, inserting the rear end of the mag first, and rocking up the front end, pushing the top cartridge straight down instead of camming it the way normal rocking works. The sahpe of the bolt will probably not even matter with a reverse rock.

[jdtravers 637]

To be able to reload fast and efficiently on a closed bolt, you HAVE to have the bolt on the Saiga 12 undercut, blended and polished to allow a smooth reload on a closed bolt. When it is done properly, a full mag will load just the same as loading an empty magazine. I also open up the sheet metal on the stock Saiga 12 magwell so the magazine will have a slip fit and drop free.

 

The one video I saw of the guy reloading very fast was with an AK-47, not a Saiga 12. Not the Same.

 

Here is how I reload on an empty chamber, "Rock N Lock" on a closed bolt. Note: I have an extended magazine release which I can activate with my trigger finger and that way I do not take my firing hand off of the grip and I keep the weapon shouldered and pointed in the direction of travel/engagement of targets.

 

1. Activate the extended mag release with the trigger finger releasing the expended magazine. NOTE: The next two steps are being done at the same time you are reaching for the new magazine.

 

a. At the same time as (1) above, reach with the non firing hand and secure the new magazine.

 

b. One of two ways to clear the old mag: either rock the gun forward/back to make it drop (while reachine for the new mag) or knock it out of the way with the new mag.

 

2. Rock and lock the new mag in place and reach OVER THE TOP and charge the bolt.

 

This breaks down to three (3) steps.

 

1. Clear the old mag

2. Insert the new mag

3. Charge the bolt

 

The big difference is NOT to shoot the gun dry. In competition you will time your reload and try to do it during movement in between target engagement (if possible). If you have to charge the gun while standing static engaging targets, you definitely will not win that particular stage/course of fire.

 

Back in the days when we used a .45 as a primary weapon system for CT/clearing operations, we got very good at counting rounds. I still find myself counting other shooters rounds as they shoot but no longer count my own as all I shoot are high caps (can't count that high).

 

Will be heading back to Louisiana in two weeks to prep for a big match coming up (MGM Ironman) and will make a video of this technique and a video comparing it to making a mag change using the magwell. Will post it on the Carolina Shooters Supply website when the video is finished.

 

Regards,

 

Jack Travers

JT Engineering

[Saleig 0]

As for trying to fire a weapon with an open bolt and empty chamber, every one I've used has a noticeably different feel to the recoil on the last shot when the bolt locks open. To me, that's the "your gun is empty" indicator.

 

As for round counting, I forget most of the time in 3-gun comp, I can only imagine trying to do it under fire.

 

I have a drum now, so I'm working on an easy way to load w/ bolt closed, as it's follower isn't likely to work with a LRBHO. My mag fence helped greatly with loading on a closed bolt, but won't work with a drum either. I have a couple guns with a forward mag catch, might play with that. It allows a reverse rock, inserting the rear end of the mag first, and rocking up the front end, pushing the top cartridge straight down instead of camming it the way normal rocking works. The sahpe of the bolt will probably not even matter with a reverse rock.

 

 

Thanks for the advice Jack I will have to get a try.