Twinsen 86 Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Don't worry about it, there are so many .308 loadings, it's been around so long. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Okay vbrtrmn!.... As I said, draw your own conclusions and I'm not taking your word, for anything, since you didn't site any references. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oxyehho 8 Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Anyone here heard of CUP vs PSI? How about SAAMI or NATO EPVAT?The fact is .308 Winchester is not 52,000 psi, it is 52,000 CUP. CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) is not the same as psi (Pounds Per Square Inch)...... Vrbtrmn - thank you for this post - I spent time going through the info - it is very educational. I agree with you on source citing as well. Although a couple of times I got nailed because my sources such as wikipedia were wrong :-( Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Which 308 ammo is actually 7.62x51 NATO that you guys know of? I think some like wolf just throw the 308 win label on there and dont care. A lot of people think theyre the same, but the .308 Win actually has up to 12,000 pounds more pressure than nato 7.62x51. Could this possibly lead to feed issues with the gas systems in the saigas? I would recomend not using hot loads like the .308Win light magnum ammo. Even if you do not have a failure of the bolt, lugs, or barrel, you verywell could have a problem with your reciever cover getting short. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 I could do as you did and post link after link but the authority would be no more creditable than the ones you posted. You state "it is time to stop spreading misinformation" and then link to sites a 15 year old kid could have posted. I still haven't figured out where you got the 52,000 psi number for a commercial 308. If I have missed that argument on this thread then please point out the member who posted it for me. I have publications which draw no distinctions between the NATO 7.62x51 and commercial 308. The 11th Edition of CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD states "the 308 is nothing more than the NATO 7.62x51mm military round". But then other sources start citing differences. Hornady's website comes right out and says their Light/Heavy magnum commercial 308 ammunition is not intended for semi-automatic or gas powered firearms. I have never seen any NATO 7.62x51 come with a warning not to shoot in a semi-automatic/gas powered firearm. If there is some NATO 7.62x51 loaded so hot that it comes with a warning not to shoot in semi-automatic/gas operated firearms then I would ask that you please point it out to me. If you cannot find any then obviously there is a difference between the NATO 7.62x51 and commercial 308. That or Hornady is so concerned they would sell too much of the light/heavy magnum ammunition and put the warning in place to scare off potential buyers who shoot semi-automatic/gas powered firearms. If I had a scanner I guess I could scan pages and then post them. I certainly have no reason to just lie about this stuff. I thought I explained in my posts that the information I typed was gleaned over the years from various publications. I would not advise anyone to stake their life on what I have put forth...or on what you have put forth because neither of us is truly qualified to speak with authority. Its amazing how quick these discussions go from friendly to adversarial. It always seems to start with snide remarks and the same old I'm right and you're wrong. I had to stop myself...I almost actually quoted Rodney King. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 I have never seen any NATO 7.62x51 come with a warning not to shoot in a semi-automatic/gas powered firearm. If there is some NATO 7.62x51 loaded so hot that it comes with a warning not to shoot in semi-automatic/gas operated firearms then I would ask that you please point it out to me. Are we all sure there isn't any? Maybe some African country pumped out some +P stuff for MG use 40 years ago. Who knows? Just because we haven't seen it before doesn't mean anything. So far, it seems none of us knows for sure. I've seen too many sources claim FOR SURE one way or the other. And they both show data that is in no way definitive. Without some NATO document giving SAAMI max pressure, we're not going to know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wolfox 0 Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 (edited) Gentlemen, if I may? There are minor differences in the internal volume between NATO and Commercial .308 Winchester cartridges. The case walls and necks are thicker in the NATO round, reducing overall internal volume of the cartridge in a very small amount. But like incorrect headspacing and bullet COAL can reduce internal volume of the cartridge to the point that gas pressures become dangerous; reloading NATO brass to .308 Winchester powder and bullet weight can create a gas pressure spike that will explosively disrupt your firearms and hands. THAT is the main difference between the two. Though they can both be chambered and fired in a weapon double stamped like my Saiga 308-1, if I fired 7.62mmx51 LOADED like it were .308 Winchester, I would not be writing this with my fingers. Also, super lightweight loading should be avoided. There is a lot of theory out there on why it happens, but a cartridge loaded with a light load of powder tends to have the powder shift around either to the nose of the cartridge or lay flat in a thin covering in the bottom of cartridge. The flame jet from the primer ignites both sides of the powder "carpet" and you get a double shockwave from both ends of the powder charge that meet in the center. The effect is a lot like detonation in a gasoline engine that is brought on by a dirty piston head where pre-ignition of the gasoline/air from the face of the piston meets the flamefront of the spark plug. The two shockwaves similarly meet in a firearm, roughly in the center of the cartridge, spike the pressure and the cartridge ruptures in half, blowing the works open. Modern powder formulations though powerful, are intended to burn at an even rate. Mess with that rate and gas generation goes skyrocketing and you know the rest. Am I an expert? No, but I let my cat sit on me and sleep last night at the Motel 8. What I have stated here is not something I have experienced nor I am schooled in, but painstakingly understood after a lot of reading on the subject to keep myself safe as a reloader and hobbyist. There is also a quick glossing over of the subject in my reloading manual (Speer #14) that was paraphrased in my first paragraph. Carry on my friends. EDIT: I will need to go and look it up but there are SAMI and CUP parameters I am sure I read in that reloading manual. (I got to find it in my messy garage) Typically though, NATO spec. ammunition generates less gas pressure about what was stated earlier (50000 CUP - I *think*, exact recall is fuzzy) and the commercial Winchester is a hotter, higher pressure loading. .308 Winchester was the response to make a ballistically equivalent munition in place of the longer .30-06 so that one could mass produce smaller, shorter action carbines and automatic rifles. Edited March 7, 2009 by Gentle Wolfox Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rssfndly 14 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Military surplus. Anything 7.62x51 with the "NATO cross" head stamp. +1 on that. LC for Lake City as well on the head stamp. NATO cartridges also have crimps around the primer and the sometimes the primer and projo are is sealed with a red or green water proofing glue of some sort. I have been told not to use commercial 308 in a military weapon, bolt or semi auto. The commercial 308 has higher pressures than NATO 7.62. In my reloading books it states if using military brass reduce the start charge by 10% due to the thicker brass in NATO cartridges. This is to avoid the higher pressures that may cause catastrophic gun failures and serious injury. FWIW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zambon291 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Has anyone asked RAAC or Izhmash if the Saiga 308/7.62 is specificaly designed to fire commercial .308? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rssfndly 14 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Has anyone asked RAAC or Izhmash if the Saiga 308/7.62 is specificaly designed to fire commercial .308? I was wondering that myself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
t165 30 Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Has anyone asked RAAC or Izhmash if the Saiga 308/7.62 is specificaly designed to fire commercial .308? I was wondering that myself. I have (2) 308-1 Saigas. Both are marked 308 Win and 7.62x51. I added a picture but quality is low. My owners manual states both 308 Win and 7.62x51mm are safe to fire. Specifically, No...I have not asked RAAC directly concerning the use of commercial 308 ammunition in these firearms. Since the firearm was marked and the manual stated it was okay I just assumned. The Saiga owners manual does not forbid Hornady Light Magnum and Federal High Energy anywhere I can see but the two ammunition manufacturers caution against using these products in semi-automatic/gas operated firearms. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jasecloud4 2 Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) Edited March 11, 2009 by jase Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 You can Shoot .308 Win in your guns. You can shoot 7.62x51mm in your guns. I've shot 147, 150, 165, 175, 180gr through my .308. 150gr 7.62x51mm 147, 165, 175, 180gr .308 Win. In fact, Federal Gold Match 175gr Factory Ammo shoots the best out of my .308v21 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mstranglr 9 Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 You can Shoot .308 Win in your guns. You can shoot 7.62x51mm in your guns. I've shot 147, 150, 165, 175, 180gr through my .308. 150gr 7.62x51mm 147, 165, 175, 180gr .308 Win. In fact, Federal Gold Match 175gr Factory Ammo shoots the best out of my .308v21 Have you set up paper targets at longer ranges? At 300 yards, 175gr Federal Gold Match key-holes out of my long BBL Saiga 308. Just too heavy for the twist rate in my gun IMO. NATO ball goes through cleanly, even at 500 yards (East German DAG). I have been trying to find the perfect balance between low cost and accuracy in a 308 round for the Saiga. I am going to take a designated marksman course with a .308 Saiga that requires 500 rounds minimum, so very expensive match ammo is out of the question. Some of the NATO ammo I have tried, has done better then handloads. I have a batch of East German DAG ammo that just groups awesome. I also have a batch of British surplus that does very good at long ranges, but lacks the round-to-round consistency of the German stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jasecloud4 2 Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 I use 147gr steel core penetrator, South African Surplus. Works like a charm. "Some people say I have issues." ~ME Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.