Which 308 ammo is actually 7.62x51?

[segasaiga 0]

Which 308 ammo is actually 7.62x51 NATO that you guys know of? I think some like wolf just throw the 308 win label on there and dont care.

 

A lot of people think theyre the same, but the .308 Win actually has up to 12,000 pounds more pressure than nato 7.62x51. Could this possibly lead to feed issues with the gas systems in the saigas?

Edited March 2, 2009 by segasaiga

[mstranglr 9]

Military surplus. Anything 7.62x51 with the "NATO cross" headstamp.

[WardenWolf 6]

It's called a Saiga .308, not a Saiga 7.62x51. I think it was designed for all the sane loadings of .308. Check your barrel's twist rate, and that should tell you what it was designed for. Don't put bullets through it that it can't optimally stabilize, and you won't be overloading it.

[mstranglr 9]

It's called a Saiga .308, not a Saiga 7.62x51. I think it was designed for all the sane loadings of .308. Check your barrel's twist rate, and that should tell you what it was designed for. Don't put bullets through it that it can't optimally stabilize, and you won't be overloading it.

 

The Saiga .308 twist rate favors lighter bullets (140-155 gr), so military 7.62x51 is PERFECT for the Saiga because NATO 7.62x51 bullets are lighter than most commercial bullets. Cheap Russian ammo tends to copy the NATO weights also. Stay away from the heavier "target" loads in the Saiga. Under 300 yards it doesnt seem to matter much, but the difference is profound at longer distances. It is perfectly safe to shoot 7.62x51 in a .308 rifle, but the opposite is not always true (commercial ammo tends to bend op rods on M142, M1As, and Garands).

[elvis christ 451]

It's called a Saiga .308, not a Saiga 7.62x51. I think it was designed for all the sane loadings of .308. Check your barrel's twist rate, and that should tell you what it was designed for. Don't put bullets through it that it can't optimally stabilize, and you won't be overloading it.

 

My saiga .308 says .308win and 7.62x51 on the receiver.

[oxyehho 8]

It's called a Saiga .308, not a Saiga 7.62x51. I think it was designed for all the sane loadings of .308. Check your barrel's twist rate, and that should tell you what it was designed for. Don't put bullets through it that it can't optimally stabilize, and you won't be overloading it.

 

My saiga .308 says .308win and 7.62x51 on the receiver.

 

Here is is the rate of twist for the barrels - according to the source, it's the same for all barrel lengths: Valery Shilin's Gun Club - check table 1.

 

On Izhmash official site, max weight is 11.7g and max energy is ~3,700J See Cartridge Spec table. I also looked on Wikipedia on what that number means and it looks like Saiga can handle almost upto the max 308 cartridge can deliver: look at ballistic performance table on the right.

 

To summarize, besides all 7.62x51 cartridges, for 308 round, it can handle 150-175gr bullets (but not 180gr).

[Jpnorris87 3]

The only real difference between the NATO 7.62 round and .308 win is the the NATO round is set up for guns with a floating firing pin. Kinda like the round that you chamber every time you lock and load your M4. After chambering that round 5 or 6 times you will see a pretty good indention in the primer. All NATO rounds are set up for this type of abuse. The .308 win is basically the same round just the primer and casing arent set up to take this kind of abuse. The NATO rounds are different to prevent the weapon going off when you slam the bolt closed. I guess this could possible happen chambering a .308win in a weapon with a floating firing pin, but I have never heard of this happening.

[mstranglr 9]

The only real difference between the NATO 7.62 round and .308 win is the the NATO round is set up for guns with a floating firing pin. Kinda like the round that you chamber every time you lock and load your M4. After chambering that round 5 or 6 times you will see a pretty good indention in the primer. All NATO rounds are set up for this type of abuse. The .308 win is basically the same round just the primer and casing arent set up to take this kind of abuse. The NATO rounds are different to prevent the weapon going off when you slam the bolt closed. I guess this could possible happen chambering a .308win in a weapon with a floating firing pin, but I have never heard of this happening.

 

Dont forget the most significant difference; commercial .308 is loaded MUCH hotter than NATO 7.62x51. So much so that .308 will damage some military rifles. Same goes for 30-06, commercial 30-06 will destroy a Garand.

[Deadeye 325]

It's called a Saiga .308, not a Saiga 7.62x51. I think it was designed for all the sane loadings of .308. Check your barrel's twist rate, and that should tell you what it was designed for. Don't put bullets through it that it can't optimally stabilize, and you won't be overloading it.

 

My saiga .308 says .308win and 7.62x51 on the receiver.

 

Here is is the rate of twist for the barrels - according to the source, it's the same for all barrel lengths: Valery Shilin's Gun Club - check table 1.

 

On Izhmash official site, max weight is 11.7g and max energy is ~3,700J See Cartridge Spec table. I also looked on Wikipedia on what that number means and it looks like Saiga can handle almost upto the max 308 cartridge can deliver: look at ballistic performance table on the right.

 

To summarize, besides all 7.62x51 cartridges, for 308 round, it can handle 150-175gr bullets (but not 180gr).

[Deadeye 325]

so is 180gr to much for the saiga308. i got a box for christmas are they saif to shoot

[Marc 147]

so is 180gr to much for the saiga308. i got a box for christmas are they saif to shoot

 

180gr bullets will not hurt your Saiga. The only reason to avoid certain weight bullets is if YOU find that that weight bullet is not stabilized from YOUR gun. If you shoot your 180 gr bullets and find keyholes in your target then you know that those bullets are not stabilized by your gun and shooting anymore of them is pointless if your trying to be accurate on paper, continuing to shoot them WILL NOT, however, harm your gun in anyway.

 

The 12,000 or so psi difference between 308Win and 7.62NATO ammo means absolutely nothing, SAAMI pressures and NATO pressures are measured on different areas of the pressure test barrels...NATO pressures are taken at the chamber, SAAMI pressures are taken further down the bore. Pressures are different in both areas of the barrel, even with the same ammo.

 

THE main difference between 308Win and 7.62NATO is the maximum allowable case length which effects headspace. 308 Win only guns are chambered with a SAAMI spec chamber reamer and headspaced to SAAMI specs with an acceptable amount of playroom to allow the slight variances in commercial ammo to work safely. 7.62NATO guns are chambered with greater clearances to allow safe use of all NATO spec ammo...of which the specs are also very loose because many countries are using old machines with loose tolerances to produce the ammo. The Saiga 308s have a hybrid chamber with a headspace set somewhere between SAAMI specs and NATO specs that make is safe to shoot most commercial and military ammo without having to much or to little headspace with either.

 

Another difference between 7.62NATO and commercial 308 ammo is the thickness of the brass. Because of the loose specs of NATO chambers the brass is thicker so that there is more material to expand to fill the chamber upon firing, commercial 308 doesn't need the extra thickness because the chamber is tighter and the brass doesn't need to expand as much.

 

Military primers are harder to prevent out-of-battery slam fires in machine guns.

[oxyehho 8]

so is 180gr to much for the saiga308. i got a box for christmas are they saif to shoot

 

According to Izhmash factory spec, 180gr round exceed it's maximums on both weight and energy. I would NOT recommend.

[Marc 147]

so is 180gr to much for the saiga308. i got a box for christmas are they saif to shoot

 

According to Izhmash factory spec, 180gr round exceed it's maximums on both weight and energy. I would NOT recommend.

 

Again, the reason to not shoot heavy bullets is if the barrels rifling has to slow a twist rate to stabilize them...the only way to know if your barrel will not stabilize a particular bullet is to shoot them at paper. Your barrel is going to be different then your buddies seemingly identical barrel, therefore, your barrel may stabilize the heavy bullets that your buddies barrel will not.

 

How exactly do 180gr bullets exceed recommended energy maximums? Energy is a product of mass and velocity, heavy bullets cannot be loaded to the same velocities that lighter bullets can be loaded at, they can only be loaded at reduced velocity and the reduction in velocity with heavier bullets produce either similar energies or (actually) lower energies.

 

Go hear http://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle.aspx

 

Select 308 Win and compare 150 gr loads to 180 gr loads or others if you want.

 

Taken from the above sight.

rifle_compare.aspx.htm

 

You can see that the 180 gr load actually produces 8ft-lbs LESS energy then the 150 gr load.

 

Any commercial ammo you can buy is going to be safe to shoot in your Saiga, but if your gun doesn't stabilize the bullets then it is pointless to shoot them. If you load your own ammo then as long as you stick to safe and known recipes for your particular bullet and powder then it will be safe to shoot in your Saiga.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Barnett3006

[oxyehho 8]

so is 180gr to much for the saiga308. i got a box for christmas are they saif to shoot

 

According to Izhmash factory spec, 180gr round exceed it's maximums on both weight and energy. I would NOT recommend.

 

Again, the reason to not shoot heavy bullets is if the barrels rifling has to slow a twist rate to stabilize them...the only way to know if your barrel will not stabilize a particular bullet is to shoot them at paper. Your barrel is going to be different then your buddies seemingly identical barrel, therefore, your barrel may stabilize the heavy bullets that your buddies barrel will not.

 

How exactly do 180gr bullets exceed recommended energy maximums? Energy is a product of mass and velocity, heavy bullets cannot be loaded to the same velocities that lighter bullets can be loaded at, they can only be loaded at reduced velocity and the reduction in velocity with heavier bullets produce either similar energies or (actually) lower energies.

 

Go hear http://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle.aspx

 

Select 308 Win and compare 150 gr loads to 180 gr loads or others if you want.

 

Taken from the above sight.

rifle_compare.aspx.htm

 

You can see that the 180 gr load actually produces 8ft-lbs LESS energy then the 150 gr load.

 

Any commercial ammo you can buy is going to be safe to shoot in your Saiga, but if your gun doesn't stabilize the bullets then it is pointless to shoot them. If you load your own ammo then as long as you stick to safe and known recipes for your particular bullet and powder then it will be safe to shoot in your Saiga.

 

Here is an example of 180 gr round exceeding factory energy maximum: Federal Nosler High Energy

 

And no matter whether the round exceeds the energy maximum or not, 180 gr bullet exceeds the factory weight maximum. Now, I am not a weapons whiz for sure, but if the Russians say something is over the limit of their weapon, I gotta trust their word, so let's not throw words like ANY commercial ammo is safe, come on guys!

[Marc 147]

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/det...fle.aspx?id=304

[WardenWolf 6]

A Saiga .308 is similar to a PSL, only slightly more tolerant. A PSL shouldn't shoot more than 155-grain ammo. A Saiga .308 probably shouldn't shoot 180-grain ammo, but it's good up to 170 grain or so.

[Marc 147]

Ok, anyone care to explain why a Saiga 308 is good to shoot any bullet up to but not including 180gr? I mean, other then the rifling's twist rate may be to slow to stabilize 180gr or heavier bullets.

[t165 30]

Ok, anyone care to explain why a Saiga 308 is good to shoot any bullet up to but not including 180gr? I mean, other then the rifling's twist rate may be to slow to stabilize 180gr or heavier bullets.

 

 

This is a subject which has been argued since Winchester developed the experimental T65 from the 300 Savage. Both 308 Saigas I own are badged both 308 Winchester and 7.62x51 so I assume both should function and be safe to fire. That is not the case for all gas operated firearms. I have seen factory notices posted relating to Federal High Energy and Hornady Light magnum that this ammunition should not be used in gas operated firearms. It had something to do with the pressure curve of the ammunition. Much like the reason many 22 magnum and 22 long rifle gas operated firearms could not be simply be rebarreled to 17 HMR and 17 MK2. The science is complicated and I would trust the experts. The firing of a firearm is nothing more that a controled directional explosion and I am fond of my vision and like my fingers intact.

 

Bullet grain and rate of twist is another science altogether. Its not as simple as comparing rate of twist to bullet weight. Velocity and the shape of the bullet (length) also plays a large part of stabilization. Again, the science get rather complicated but in the end it best to trust the experts. If the firearm manufacturer states not to use certain ammunition in their firearm then I'm going to abide by them. Same goes for the ammunition manufacturers.

[t165 30]

Can my spelling get any worse? Typos . Maybe SAIGA-12 should get a spellchecker.

[netpackrat 566]

On Izhmash official site, max weight is 11.7g and max energy is ~3,700J See Cartridge Spec table. I also looked on Wikipedia on what that number means and it looks like Saiga can handle almost upto the max 308 cartridge can deliver: look at ballistic performance table on the right.

 

To summarize, besides all 7.62x51 cartridges, for 308 round, it can handle 150-175gr bullets (but not 180gr).

 

I looked at the specs on that site, and did the grams to grains conversion myself. You need to check your math, because the 11.7 grain bullet listed as max, converts out to 180.558 grains, so clearly they meant that the Saiga .308 is good for bullet weights up to 180 grains. .308 being a US round, they probably derived the 11.7 gram value from 180 grains, and rounded it off. That's actually the industry standard maximum for the .308 cartridge in general, which is prone to excessive pressure if you try to load bullet weights greater than 180 grains (which is not the same as saying it can't be done safely). This is why factory .308 ammo generally tops out at 180 grains, max, and why if you want to use heavier bullets in a .30 cal you need to use a .30-06 or some other caliber.

 

But don't take my word for it, do the conversion for yourself:

 

http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/grams-to-grains.htm

 

Edit to add: I don't think I've ever even seen a 175 grain weight bullet in .308 caliber, whether loaded ammo or component.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Netpackrat

[segasaiga 0]

I saw this in a different thread and thought I would add this here for people searching the forum for the topic:

 

Exterior case dimensions of the commercial .308 Winchester and military 7.62x51 are reported to be identical. Interior dimensions of the.308 Winchester and military 7.62x51 are reported to be a bit different in some publications I have read. The important difference is in the pressure generated upon firing. Again, publications state the 308 Winchester has about a 62,000 psi upper limit and the military 7.62x51 has a 50,000 psi upper limit. Either will chamber and fire in firearms marked exclusively or in tandem. Firing a commercial 308 Winchester in a firearm badged for the military 7.62x51 may cause damage to the firearm or shooter. Firing a military 7.62x51 in a badged commercial 308 Winchester firearm will not damage a firearm but it may not cycle some gas operated firearms properly.

[mstranglr 9]

I saw this in a different thread and thought I would add this here for people searching the forum for the topic:

 

Exterior case dimensions of the commercial .308 Winchester and military 7.62x51 are reported to be identical. Interior dimensions of the.308 Winchester and military 7.62x51 are reported to be a bit different in some publications I have read. The important difference is in the pressure generated upon firing. Again, publications state the 308 Winchester has about a 62,000 psi upper limit and the military 7.62x51 has a 50,000 psi upper limit. Either will chamber and fire in firearms marked exclusively or in tandem. Firing a commercial 308 Winchester in a firearm badged for the military 7.62x51 may cause damage to the firearm or shooter. Firing a military 7.62x51 in a badged commercial 308 Winchester firearm will not damage a firearm but it may not cycle some gas operated firearms properly.

 

This is correct, especially the part about not shooting commercial 308 in a military firearm chambered for 7.62x51. Go to the M14 or garand forums and read about all the destroyed guns where people thought that interchanging ammo of the same weight was OK. The saiga can handle both no problem, but as stated before, and through my extensive shooting experience with different weight bullets in my Saiga 308s, you are pretty much wasting money paying for expensive heavy target rounds.

[vbrtrmn 167]

Anyone here heard of CUP vs PSI? How about SAAMI or NATO EPVAT?

The fact is .308 Winchester is not 52,000 psi, it is 52,000 CUP. CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) is not the same as psi (Pounds Per Square Inch).

 

I've seen the 52,000 psi vs. 60,000 psi argument all over the internet, it is time to stop spreading incorrect information. The worst thing about the internet is that people believe things they read even though there are no sources listed. Where did you get the 52,000 psi vs. 60,000 psi information? Probably, just copied and pasted from some other source who copied and pasted it from some other source.

 

Awhile back I was extremely interested in the 308 vs 7.62 NATO debate, I had just purchased an Ishpore Enfield and was wondering if I could use 308 and/or NATO ammo in it. I came across a bunch of arguments stating you could or you couldn't, may people quoting the "hot load" theory and listing the pressures. I could NOT find any instances of people who had blown up their 308 or 7.62 NATO weapon firing "hot" ammo in it, not even the Ishpore Enfields which there is a considerable amount of disinformation on. This made me even more interested, so I did some research for myself; since there was so much conflicting information from various essentially anonymous sources. What did I find? I'm not going to tell you, if you want to know research it for yourself, my sources are actually listed below.

 

Do you have any actual sources for your information?

I'd be very very interested in reading them; if you don't, sorry I can't believe anything you say, for either side of the argument. Sources are actual references or articles siting references, I don't really care what you read in some other forum or someone told you.

 

Sources:

7.62x51 mm NATO/.308 Win pressures

http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/lee-enfield...ames;read=59791

 

Article: 308 Win vs 7.62 NATO

Read the entire thread, especially the PDF, the author actually sites references.

https://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326877

 

SAAMI - UNSAFE ARMS AND AMMUNITION COMBINATIONS

http://www.saami.org/Unsafe_Combinations.cfm

 

Edit..

Winchester now labels all their white box .308 ammo as 7.62mm.

http://ltdammo.com/images/win%2013130.jpg

Edited March 5, 2009 by vbrtrmn

[Bullsquid 2]

So .308 WIN BALL(7.62X51MM) Mfg. Sellier & Bellot, Czech,1980-1983 production FMJ will be safe for my Saiga 308? Not sure about the grain though. Thanks in advance.

[t165 30]

Okay vbrtrmn! I read this thread again and unless I'm missing something nobody said the commercial 308 is 52,000 psi. Also vbrtrmn, I saw no mention of anyone stating an argument about 52,000 psi v 60,000 psi as it applies to the 7.62x51 and commercial 308. I did not see any statements on this thread which would lead a reasonable man to conclude anyone has confused CUP with PSI. As far as I can see on this thread you are the first poster to even mention the CUP method of measuring pressure. This little bit of bad information put forth by you needs to be cleaned up first. Perhaps you confused this thread with another and accidently posted your rebuttal on the wrong one. If I am wrong then please show me my error.

 

What most posters on this thread have done is ask questions and put forth information in a friendly mannner which they have heard and read. Which, by the way ,is exactly what you have done. I doubt that any of us are ballistic scientists. If you are one then post a copy of your credentials or I have to doubt anything you say and the articles you posted as reference are no better than the ones which I have read that state the direct opposite.

 

The truth is even the experts do always agree what is safe and what is not. Your Ishpore Enfield and 7.62x51/308 ammunition. Spanish Mausers and 7.62x51/308 ammunition. My 45/70 Gibbs Enfield and hot loads...the arguments go on and on. The advice I follow is that of qualified reputable experts. I will always err on the side of safety when in question but ultimately it is up to the individual.

 

I am not a know-it-all. I wish I could buy a reference book detailing all firearms that was 100% correct answering all conceivable questions one could ask. I cannot buy one because there is none. Now, if we can get Hornady's Dave Emery to jump into this discussion I would listen closely.

[t165 30]

The truth is even the experts do NOT always agree what is safe and what is not.

 

MY BAD

[Twinsen 86]

I've read that 7.61x51 NATO is hotter than .308 Winchester, and the other way around too many times. I don't know what the deal is, and I have no proof of knowing either way. I like guns that say either or. DSA says use either of them, they both work in their FALs. My CETME is stamped 7.62x51 NATO, and so that's all I ever put in it.

 

I can tell you one thing though, do not go by energy, go by pressure. Energy calculations always favor lighter bullets! Don't think that muzzle energy works just like chamber pressure. You can increase pressure and decrease muzzle energy just by going to a heavier bullet with the same powder. There are strict guidelines when determining what is safe in your gun, and they deal with pressure, as that is what the steel of your chamber is built to handle, a certain amount of pressure. Lots of other things effect muzzle energy, such as barrel length, weight of projectile, diameter of projectile, size of chamber, shape of the catridge (different from .308 to 7.62), etc.

[oxyehho 8]

On Izhmash official site, max weight is 11.7g and max energy is ~3,700J See Cartridge Spec table. I also looked on Wikipedia on what that number means and it looks like Saiga can handle almost upto the max 308 cartridge can deliver: look at ballistic performance table on the right.

 

To summarize, besides all 7.62x51 cartridges, for 308 round, it can handle 150-175gr bullets (but not 180gr).

 

I looked at the specs on that site, and did the grams to grains conversion myself. You need to check your math, because the 11.7 grain bullet listed as max, converts out to 180.558 grains, so clearly they meant that the Saiga .308 is good for bullet weights up to 180 grains. .308 being a US round, they probably derived the 11.7 gram value from 180 grains, and rounded it off. That's actually the industry standard maximum for the .308 cartridge in general, which is prone to excessive pressure if you try to load bullet weights greater than 180 grains (which is not the same as saying it can't be done safely). This is why factory .308 ammo generally tops out at 180 grains, max, and why if you want to use heavier bullets in a .30 cal you need to use a .30-06 or some other caliber.

 

But don't take my word for it, do the conversion for yourself:

 

http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/grams-to-grains.htm

 

Edit to add: I don't think I've ever even seen a 175 grain weight bullet in .308 caliber, whether loaded ammo or component.

 

I stand corrected. I took Wikipedia's numbers on faith - my bad - thank you for checking it. Bullet weight of 180 grains is indeed within factory range.

[Twinsen 86]

On Izhmash official site, max weight is 11.7g and max energy is ~3,700J See Cartridge Spec table. I also looked on Wikipedia on what that number means and it looks like Saiga can handle almost upto the max 308 cartridge can deliver: look at ballistic performance table on the right.

 

To summarize, besides all 7.62x51 cartridges, for 308 round, it can handle 150-175gr bullets (but not 180gr).

 

I looked at the specs on that site, and did the grams to grains conversion myself. You need to check your math, because the 11.7 grain bullet listed as max, converts out to 180.558 grains, so clearly they meant that the Saiga .308 is good for bullet weights up to 180 grains. .308 being a US round, they probably derived the 11.7 gram value from 180 grains, and rounded it off. That's actually the industry standard maximum for the .308 cartridge in general, which is prone to excessive pressure if you try to load bullet weights greater than 180 grains (which is not the same as saying it can't be done safely). This is why factory .308 ammo generally tops out at 180 grains, max, and why if you want to use heavier bullets in a .30 cal you need to use a .30-06 or some other caliber.

 

But don't take my word for it, do the conversion for yourself:

 

http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/grams-to-grains.htm

 

Edit to add: I don't think I've ever even seen a 175 grain weight bullet in .308 caliber, whether loaded ammo or component.

 

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?ite...;dir=18|830|848

 

It's common enough that I have some.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Twinsen

[netpackrat 566]

Edit to add: I don't think I've ever even seen a 175 grain weight bullet in .308 caliber, whether loaded ammo or component.

 

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?ite...;dir=18|830|848

 

It's common enough that I have some.

 

Duh, yeah. Now that my memory is jogged, I remember that Sierra makes a Matchking of that weight, IIRC. I just had hunting weights on the brain, which typically run 150-165-180. I was doing okay until I hit the edit button.