Gunman kill 3 Pittsburgh cops with AK47

[GPalmer 1]

I guess the police need to lay of the hardball shit when the economy is bad and the lowlifes have got nothing to lose,eh? ...

I'm not sure how you get that moral from this particular story. If there was anything hardball going on in this case, I missed it. I read it as two officers show up for domestic, get shot before they contact the perp, third LEO gets it trying to save fallen officers.

 

The point you raise is an interesting one though, no matter if it applies here or not. I'm not sure that the Police's behavior is really going to be the difference in these cases. In both this case and the one in Oakland you have a walking time bomb who is contacted and goes off before how the LEO behaves is really a factor. Generally speaking, I've heard more officers get hurt by not using the correct amount of force early enough. So if anything, if would seem that the officers need to react more strongly than they are now. In both cases it would require the officers to be a lot more aggressive from the beginning of the contact.

 

 

Appropriate Level of force in this instance is either ask him to step out and talk with them or show up with an APC and a SWAT Team.There is no in between when dealing with desperate people but often you can diffuse this kind of this by putting the ball in their court.Taking away choices and threatening force from the getgo applies pressure where it isn't going to do any good and you will see more cops die from this practice.

 

Back in 1992 I listened to a rural Oklahoma deputy recount a domestic violence call where a woman called the police because she was pissed at her husband who was yelling but hadn't laid a finger on anyone and the cops instead of storming in talked to the woman on the front step and then the older officer said "alright boss,let's hear your side of the story" to the husband.The guy came out and placed a long object against the wall as he came out the screen door and proceeded to tell the cops about his wife spending them in the hole.When the younger officer shined the light in the doorway while this conversation was going on he saw the 12ga shotgun the man had previously been holding and propped against the wall on his way out to tell "his side of the story" the older officer when asked if he knew if there was a shotgun replied "out hear in McClain County there's always a shotgun" and when asked why he asked the man to come outside and talk instead of going inside and throwing his weight around responded "I gave him a choice between fighting and getting to speak his piece,a man without choices is a lot more dangerous than a man who thinks you want to hear what he has to say"

 

I have have referred back to that story probably a hundred times since then using it's example with my kids,with employees and even with people who needed to be "sorted out" and never regretted it once.

 

That is the missing link in force continuum Glocker and that is why 2009 is going to be the bloodiest year in US Law Enforcment History by the time it's over is because the Nanny State and it's method of enforcement encroach on sanctity of other people's lives over very minor bullshit and then take away choices from desperate people but I guarantee the answer from LE and Gov will be MORE force just like you advocate and it will only result in dead cops and dead citizens and ZERO resolution or improvement.

 

Natural Selection Anyone?

Well, understand that I'm not advocating anything here. I pretty much agree with your assessment that it's gonna be a big shit sandwich that the LEO community is going to be snacking on in these times.

 

First though, in this incident and the Oakland one, the officers never had a chance to give the perp his say. They made contact and the perp responded at the high end of the force continuum. I think these are isolated acts that we'll be seeing lots more of for exactly the reasons you outline. the only way the LEO could have addressed these would be to be doing their all their traffic stops and domestics with a SWAT team and armored cars. That's not a practical approach. So I don't really see cracking down hard as a viable alternative. In this case, it wouldn't have mattered if the officers had shown up with full battle gear and automatic weapons when they're facing a perp who is willing to die so long as he takes others with him.

 

Will shootings like this tend to provoke a knee jerk reaction from the LEO community with harsher reactions? I would think so, it's in the nature of humans that the more strongly you believe you will be injured or killed by someone the more harshly you are going to react. Will that inevitably mean that some folks on both sides who would have been unscathed in less troubled times will be badly injured or die? I think that's also true. Unfortunately I just don't see how you avoid that when you are increasing the number of contacts between strangers who are making split-second decisions with firearms, emotions and adrenaline in the mix. You don't know what's in the other person's mind, you can only guess based on your training and the training is going to increasingly assume the worst.

 

Anyway, on the core premise of your argument we agree completely, this is going to be an ugly year.

[Bvamp 604]

I would like to say it again -

 

dont shoot the cops, or any other of our "boys", you will be making a mistake......

 

-Ben V.

[Azrial 1,091]

I guess the police need to lay of the hardball shit when the economy is bad and the lowlifes have got nothing to lose,eh? ....

There is honestly something wrong with you, isn't there? There is never a story posted about a officer getting hurt here without you expressing your joy, here over their deaths. You have issues and need to seek treatment, your manic hyperbole does no one any good, specially this site.

 

That is my opinion.

[saigafan12345 21]

I guess the police need to lay of the hardball shit when the economy is bad and the lowlifes have got nothing to lose,eh? ....

There is honestly something wrong with you, isn't there? There is never a story posted about a officer getting hurt here without you expressing your joy, here over their deaths. You have issues and need to seek treatment, your manic hyperbole does no one any good, specially this site.

 

That is my opinion.

 

I thought SOPMOD was a very intelligent political thinker, but the more and more I read his posts, it just seems like he's some crazy zionist fanatic conspiracy theorist living out in bumblefuck. I dont like the anti-cop talk either. My dad's cousin was a NJ State Trooper, highly distinguished and a marine viet nam vet. He was gunned down on the roadside during a routine traffic stop. Go ahead, laugh at that one SOPMOD. I know some LEO are harsh and disrespectful and some of the policies POLITICIANS order them to do, there is no reason to disrespect an honest, hard working cop, and certainly no excuse to EVER take pleasure in their injury or death.

[SOPMOD 254]

I guess the police need to lay of the hardball shit when the economy is bad and the lowlifes have got nothing to lose,eh? ....

There is honestly something wrong with you, isn't there? There is never a story posted about a officer getting hurt here without you expressing your joy, here over their deaths. You have issues and need to seek treatment, your manic hyperbole does no one any good, specially this site.

 

That is my opinion.

 

I'm not cheering Azrial,I'm watching a train wreck in extreme slow motion(30 years) and you're on that train and don't even know it.I got off that train before it left the station because I saw that the engineer was drunk(with power) and high(on coerced unconstitutional privileges) and don't want any part of it.

 

Was this guy crazy?Yes Was he a Neo-Nazi and would have rather shot bad old SOPMOD the Zionist than these cops?Yes but did he actually violate anyone's civil or constitutional rights prior to that day?Not that we know of.Did anyone ever hear of this nincompoop before that day?Not for anything major and the truth is some people just aren't to be coerced and trifled with and this kid was one of those people.

 

These are the last days of civilian law enforcement Azrial and you don't even realize it and that very blindness and self righteous hypocrisy is a big part of why you will be replaced with US Troops in the next 5 years.That bullyboy shit over jaywalking,curfew and window tint is setting the stage to get you boys killed later on down the line at an alarming rate because these people already think you are the "bad guys" and frankly I am not glad to see it and I'm wondering who is going to do your job when a cruiser can't drive down a suburban road without getting nailed by potshots from the people you screwed with a week before.4 teenagers in a HMMWV aren't going to do anything but "hurt people and break shit"

 

You could be the perfect cop for all I know,1/2 Andy Griffith and 1/2 Serpico when the situation demands it but look at what just happened with vehicle searches.Know why that happened?

 

ABUSE OF POWER AZRIAL, They trusted you guys with "Reasonable Suspicion" for a few years and you all went on innumerable "fishing trips" and flooded our prisons with non-violent nuisance offenders to the point where 28% of Americans have now been in controlled custody and made private corrections corporations filthy rich by gouging BILLIONS out of scared tax payers who are still NO SAFER because of it!

 

If these people lose their jobs because they're in jail and lose their cars because they can't afford to get it out of impound(because they lost their jobs when they spent days in jail) over shit like you thinking you smelled a joint or because they couldn't afford car insurance without a few more weeks on a new job then they were already against the wall before you even started flexing your "cop nuts" and when they come out shooting it's because they are amped up,short sighted,fatalistic idiots and you represent ruin and misery to these poor fuckers so when they light your ass up with an AK or try to run over you with a car I can actually see why they did it.I don't agree with it but I can also see it isn't without rhyme or reason however flawed.

 

If you think I am cheering,you're wrong If you think I want to see police disappear from American society,you're wrong If you think respect is earned then start with yourself because you know what part of your job is bullshit and should be either ignored or put waaaaaay on the back burner and what stuff actually helps your community and if you are having trouble with that then may I suggest perusing the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights for a refresher

Edited May 16, 2009 by SOPMOD

[SOPMOD 254]

I guess the police need to lay of the hardball shit when the economy is bad and the lowlifes have got nothing to lose,eh? ....

There is honestly something wrong with you, isn't there? There is never a story posted about a officer getting hurt here without you expressing your joy, here over their deaths. You have issues and need to seek treatment, your manic hyperbole does no one any good, specially this site.

 

That is my opinion.

 

I thought SOPMOD was a very intelligent political thinker, but the more and more I read his posts, it just seems like he's some crazy zionist fanatic conspiracy theorist living out in bumblefuck. I dont like the anti-cop talk either. My dad's cousin was a NJ State Trooper, highly distinguished and a marine viet nam vet. He was gunned down on the roadside during a routine traffic stop. Go ahead, laugh at that one SOPMOD. I know some LEO are harsh and disrespectful and some of the policies POLITICIANS order them to do, there is no reason to disrespect an honest, hard working cop, and certainly no excuse to EVER take pleasure in their injury or death.

 

 

Sorry to bust your bubble but your naivete and brown nosing are about the gayest thing I have seen this side of Campus Communists.Of course you have "Cop Love" because your radical social change can only be accomplished by men who will violate the rights of others for your perceived "common good" so keep on cheering as long as illegal and unconstitutional authority is wielded for your benefit but don't come crying to me when it comes back to bite you in the ass.

 

Go suck a rope you wee puff

[OBITUARY 12]

sorry I have posted wrong info I later learned what really happened ,a tragedy and communication error my thanks and sympathy to the officers and families.