imarangemaster 315 Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 I was reading the Book of AKs from Peterson Publishing (G&A) that Walmart is selling. In one article they talk about effectiveness of various loadings. The standard M43 Soviet steel core is a boat tail and doesn't yaw for at least 10-11 inches in tissue. The M67 Yugo short, lead core, flat base round yaws in just three inches and tends to flatten during yaw. According to Letterman wound research lab this design is much more effective. Wolf I believe uses a boat tail bullet. Barnaul, however, I know uses the M67 Yugo pattern bullet. Guess what FMJs I use in my Siaga! Brown Bear Barnaul 123 FMF flat base. Hard penetration, but good soft tissue yaw. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) I was reading the Book of AKs from Peterson Publishing (G&A) that Walmart is selling. In one article they talk about effectiveness of various loadings. The standard M43 Soviet steel core is a boat tail and doesn't yaw for at least 10-11 inches in tissue. The M67 Yugo short, lead core, flat base round yaws in just three inches and tends to flatten during yaw. According to Letterman wound research lab this design is much more effective. Wolf I believe uses a boat tail bullet. Barnaul, however, I know uses the M67 Yugo pattern bullet. Guess what FMJs I use in my Siaga! Brown Bear Barnaul 123 FMF flat base. Hard penetration, but good soft tissue yaw. What's a "Siaga"? It is interesting to learn the differences in ballistics between the Wolf and Barnaul. Previously I, like many others, figured that Russian FMJ was Russian FMJ, I didn't know that Wolf and Barnaul used different bullet designs. I currently have 1k Barnaul Silver Bear 123 grn FMJ's, and 2k Wolf MC 124 grn Hollow Point, so I think the Wolf that I have will do plenty of tissue damage. Edited April 9, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 It's a .30 caliber round, therefore more effective than anything with a smaller diameter. And uh.. yeah that's it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MD_Willington 11 Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 The 8M3 bullet is used in the Wolf Military Classic JHP round, generally a very good round. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 In case you are really bored: http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/Zielw...d_patterns.html Yakdung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 Post, Hahaha! I am a lousy typist, I confess! I agree that the HP or even the SP Barnaul would be superior in doing damage. I am looking to pick up some of either. I was only pointing out that of the FMJ, flat bottom, short, lead filled rounds are the most effective than longer, bot tail FMJ rounds. I had Silver Bear SP awhile back, and it deformed very well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mstranglr 9 Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 The 8M3 bullet is used in the Wolf Military Classic JHP round, generally a very good round. +1, The 8M3 is a good man stopper. Also, The Russian / East European hollow point ammo is not like a normal hollow point. It does not expand. It is a target bullet and actually a little less effective than FMJ. Now if you want the BEST defensive round in 7.62x39, Try the Corbon DPX. That stuff easily outperforms everything else in this caliber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
unclejake 428 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Lucky me! When SG backordered the last order out of site and they had the "mystery" FMJs, they were Brown Bear Barnaul's! And for $205 and change for 1000! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 The 8M3 bullet is used in the Wolf Military Classic JHP round, generally a very good round. +1, The 8M3 is a good man stopper. Also, The Russian / East European hollow point ammo is not like a normal hollow point. It does not expand. It is a target bullet and actually a little less effective than FMJ. Now if you want the BEST defensive round in 7.62x39, Try the Corbon DPX. That stuff easily outperforms everything else in this caliber. I'd love to get some core-bon, except I am not rich, and I haven't found any anyhow! IK'd settle for about 200 SIlver or Brown bear SPs. They are awesome! The difference shooting a milkjug of slurry (flour and water) with an FMJ and the JSP was dramatic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
badkharma2five 2 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I never worry about that high $$$ ammo much.... My brother GAVE me all of his 5.56/.223 ammo that was not 75 gr Hornady TAP ammo, because that's what he likes...... That being said, in a real combat context, penetration(i.e. FMJ) is better than "tissue damage' because your enemy is either in vehicles or under cover. and any ammo, weight of bullet or bullet form(AP,FMJ,HP,ect) is better than no ammo, I will still be just getting going when he's rounds complete with his $1 a shot BS. What I'm trying to say is, don't get caught up in that "Tacti-Cool" BS. 1 box of that $20 a box is fine for home defence, but for real action get what ever you can get the most of NOW!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 The 8M3 bullet is used in the Wolf Military Classic JHP round, generally a very good round. +1, The 8M3 is a good man stopper. Also, The Russian / East European hollow point ammo is not like a normal hollow point. It does not expand. It is a target bullet and actually a little less effective than FMJ. Now if you want the BEST defensive round in 7.62x39, Try the Corbon DPX. That stuff easily outperforms everything else in this caliber. Russian HP's don't expand? I will have to recover a few slugs to verify that, as it sounds very strange. I'm not calling you a liar, desert dog, but that's just kind of hard to believe. HP's have no purpose except mushrooming upon impact and tearing up tissue. I'm thinking that making a non-expanding HP for a "target bullet", then calling it "military classic" makes no sense at all... if you want to market a "target bullet", you produce wadcutters, not jacketed hollow points. I could be wrong but it just sounds very odd and not at all in line with all other ammo manufacturers. I'm sure the Corbon rounds are indeed excellent.. and they ought to be, considering the difference in price! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Lucky me! When SG backordered the last order out of site and they had the "mystery" FMJs, they were Brown Bear Barnaul's! And for $205 and change for 1000! Wow, excellent price, unclejake. I can't find any Russian 7.62 for less than ~$0.27/round, when I can find any in stock at all! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 As I stated in another post i did a small balistics test of wolf FMJ and HP, China sports FMJ, and soft point, Romanian FMJ and soft point, and finaly Barnaul FMJ. All FMJ tested the same with a standard AMF bowling pin(hard rubber extirior, dense hardwood interior) Dimple in and out with little to no deforming. Soft point scored about the same(china sport did slightly better than romanian rounds). the wolf HP left a golf ball sized exit EVERY TIME. This isn't exacly scientific, but it does hint at something dosn't it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
superA 289 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 As I stated in another post i did a small balistics test of wolf FMJ and HP, China sports FMJ, and soft point, Romanian FMJ and soft point, and finaly Barnaul FMJ. All FMJ tested the same with a standard AMF bowling pin(hard rubber extirior, dense hardwood interior) Dimple in and out with little to no deforming. Soft point scored about the same(china sport did slightly better than romanian rounds). the wolf HP left a golf ball sized exit EVERY TIME. This isn't exacly scientific, but it does hint at something dosn't it? Was that the MC Wolf or Black box? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mstranglr 9 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 The 8M3 bullet is used in the Wolf Military Classic JHP round, generally a very good round. +1, The 8M3 is a good man stopper. Also, The Russian / East European hollow point ammo is not like a normal hollow point. It does not expand. It is a target bullet and actually a little less effective than FMJ. Now if you want the BEST defensive round in 7.62x39, Try the Corbon DPX. That stuff easily outperforms everything else in this caliber. Russian HP's don't expand? I will have to recover a few slugs to verify that, as it sounds very strange. I'm not calling you a liar, desert dog, but that's just kind of hard to believe. HP's have no purpose except mushrooming upon impact and tearing up tissue. I'm thinking that making a non-expanding HP for a "target bullet", then calling it "military classic" makes no sense at all... if you want to market a "target bullet", you produce wadcutters, not jacketed hollow points. I could be wrong but it just sounds very odd and not at all in line with all other ammo manufacturers. I'm sure the Corbon rounds are indeed excellent.. and they ought to be, considering the difference in price! Sorry by Target ammo, I meant "plinking - shooting targets - general fun" round. Not a bench rest accuracy round. Wrong description on my part. FYI, none of the comblock JHP expand, rather they fragment, and some flat out disintegrate like frangible ammo. I have done the "water jug" test for fun with lots of different bullets. The real Russian Saspan 8M3 (wolf MC JHP) is the exception to this, as this round gets good controlled fragmentation and leaves a pretty nasty exit wound - and unlike other Russian JHP, there is actually a bullet to recover (the others practically disintegrate and just leave the steel jacket behind). People who claimed that the 7.62x39 is a bad man stopper that just penetrates through like a 9mm FMJ round, are describing the old M43 round, which does not perform well at all. This was the round used by the commies in Vietnam. The newer FMJ performs much better and gets lots of yaw shortly after entry. The best performing "Military" 7.62x39 IMO is the Yugo M67 stuff. That stuff is dramatic on jugs and retains a lot of its weight too. Steel jacketed ammo just seems to perform a little worse than copper jacketed ammo in general. Yep, the DPX ammo is very pricey, but it is worth it to make for a better hunt IMO. There are many brands of soft point ammo that perform very well too and can be had for a pretty cheap price. Winchester SP 7.62x39 mushrooms very well, and I would not hesitate to hunt with that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Was that the MC Wolf or Black box? Black box, i've never had my hands on military classic... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
superA 289 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Was that the MC Wolf or Black box? Black box, i've never had my hands on military classic... Thanks, I had heard different reports on this, good to know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
unclejake 428 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Yep, March 4th was a good day for me. Order Details: Qty Product Size Color Unit Price Unit Tax Total Price Status 2 WX2-136734 500rd 7.62x39 123gr Fmj Ammo $102.57 $0.00 $205.14 In-Stock Merchandise Total: $205.14 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Anyone ever use the Wolf 154 grn JSP? A couple MO deer hunters with SKSs told me about it, and said it works really well on deer. A 175 to 225 lb deer does not die easily. I plugged it into the Ballistic computer and it does better, even out to 250 yards, and the trajectory is not that different from the 122. That's not surprising as heavier bullets keep more thump at range. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rangerdavid 6 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 anyone tried the Tiger ammo? I really like it, or my SAR1 and my Saiga does. I have a bout 2K rounds of Tiger and some wolf military classic coming. never tried that stuff. Im anxious to see how it performs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rangerdavid 6 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) sorry, double tap....... Edited April 10, 2009 by rangerdavid Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OneFunGun 0 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 uhm personally id rather not get hit by any FMJ/HP/AP/Incendiary/Raofuss/slingshot... It doesnt matter what you send downrange out of a 7.62x its gunna be bad. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 uhm personally id rather not get hit by any FMJ/HP/AP/Incendiary/Raofuss/slingshot... It doesnt matter what you send downrange out of a 7.62x its gunna be bad. While this is true the story dosn't end there. As a hunter you have a duty to make your kill as merciful to the animal your hunting. In home defense you have a responsability to your neighbors. HP might frop a deer dead, but how much meat does it ruin? FMJ or SP might drop a intruder, but will it go through the wall and into another household? Knowing specific weapon balistics can help make better informed choices on what ammo to use for what purpose. And knowing your habbits and what you plan on using the ammo for can guide your ammo buying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I,ve got some 154 JSP coming, and some Silver Bear 122 HP. I am going to test what blows up best. Living in the country, I am lucky. Only two houses withing rifle shot, 180 degrees apart. I'll probably get some steel core just to have a mag for hard targets like 'puke-mobiles" Had an incident when I lived in the Sierras in Kalifornia that they almost became necessary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
unclejake 428 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Probably wouldn't hurt to get some frangible ? rounds for home defense. I'm like you Range, out of the city limits and only a few houses around. Plenty of "safe" shooting room. I wouldn't mind having some steel core rounds myself, but I bet the FMJ would "hurt" an engine's feelings! LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) Probably wouldn't hurt to get some frangible ? rounds for home defense. I'm like you Range, out of the city limits and only a few houses around. Plenty of "safe" shooting room. I wouldn't mind having some steel core rounds myself, but I bet the FMJ would "hurt" an engine's feelings! LOL Back about 2001, a few years after I retired from full time LE, I lived on 20 acres in the Sierras in central Kalifornia. Closet neighbor was 1 mile away, and I was the last place on the gravel road before thousands of acres of BLM land. One night I was home alone (wife was out of town) and had insomnia. About 2 or 3 in the morning, I hear a car coming up the road slowly and pulling into my driveway. I looked out and saw a blacked out beat up, POS, dirtbag mobile with 4 or 5 hairy-scaries in it easing up to my blacked out house. Before they dismounted, I stepped out the door onto the porch with an Underwood GI M1 carbine with 2 30 rounders taped together in it. I flicked on the floodlights as I stepped out and said "Hello boys!" with the gun pointed in their direction. I distinctly remember seeing eyeballs the size of coffee saucers, as they panicked and the driver tried desperately to turn around and exit without his lights on. The driveway and parking area were lined with boulders, and he managed to smash the car pretty well in his haste to leave. I guess they didn't want to stay and play! I am sure the car smelled of urine by the time they got down the road. Amazing what you can achieve with a polite smile and a gun! By the way, I always keep it loaded with 110 JSP Remington loads and use GI "AI" 30 rounders. I used it to take a deer at 75 yards with one shot once, so I think at close quarters the Underwood with JSPs would do the trick! Edited April 13, 2009 by imarangemaster Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Amazing what you can achieve with a polite smile and a gun! I like that story Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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