cburgess 0 Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Man defends his home with his .410 shotgun. (I hope its OK to post this here) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 There have been stories of Moose, Elk, Feral hogs and even Elephant being taken with a .22 LR! That does not mean that it is a good idea. .410 is too small for for this purpose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbo1889 1 Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Azrial, if you are talking about using slugs for HD then I agree - the factory slug loads available for the 410 pale in comparison to the slug loads available for the mighty 12ga. However, very few people load their HD shotgun with slugs, they load it with buck shot - OO Buck seeming to be the favorite. Load a 15 round S-410 mag. with either Winchester 5 pellet OOO Buck or S&B 5 pellet OO Buck loads and for every two times you pull the trigger it is equal to pulling a 12ga. trigger once when also loaded with most factory OO buck loads. A good capacity for a 12ga. pump gun is 7 to 8 rounds. A S-410 equipped with a 15 round mag. has twice as many shells each delivering half the payload of the 12ga. Thus both will put the same number of pellets on the target when fully emptied. Secondly you should be able to empty the S-410 in the same time or less then the 12ga. pump, both because of reduced recoil and quicker recovery times and also because it is a semi-auto action. Yes, I know a semi-auto 12ga. like the S-12 presents more rapid fire then a pump. Yet, it is also true that when you say "I Want a 12ga. Home Defense Gun" a sawed-off to minimum legal length pump 12ga. with the mag. plug removed is what the vast number of gun knowledgeable individuals in America will think of first. In fact that is probably the most common HD shotgun set-up out there and in the bedroom of a lot of America, therefore, it is a valid comparison. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Azrial, if you are talking about using slugs for HD then I agree - the factory slug loads available for the 410 pale in comparison to the slug loads available for the mighty 12ga. However, very few people load their HD shotgun with slugs, they load it with buck shot - OO Buck seeming to be the favorite. Load a 15 round S-410 mag. with either Winchester 5 pellet OOO Buck or S&B 5 pellet OO Buck loads and for every two times you pull the trigger it is equal to pulling a 12ga. trigger once when also loaded with most factory OO buck loads. A good capacity for a 12ga. pump gun is 7 to 8 rounds. A S-410 equipped with a 15 round mag. has twice as many shells each delivering half the payload of the 12ga. Thus both will put the same number of pellets on the target when fully emptied. Secondly you should be able to empty the S-410 in the same time or less then the 12ga. pump, both because of reduced recoil and quicker recovery times and also because it is a semi-auto action. Yes, I know a semi-auto 12ga. like the S-12 presents more rapid fire then a pump. Yet, it is also true that when you say "I Want a 12ga. Home Defense Gun" a sawed-off to minimum legal length pump 12ga. with the mag. plug removed is what the vast number of gun knowledgeable individuals in America will think of first. In fact that is probably the most common HD shotgun set-up out there and in the bedroom of a lot of America, therefore, it is a valid comparison. Carry what you like my friend, but your argument presumes that you will get two shots and that that all your pellets will make contact. I have carried a gauge in harms way too many years and seen to many people shot to rely on a .410, given the choice. There is a reason that most all police and militaries issue the 12 and it is that they have put a lot more $tudy into this then your theory negates. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 A 3" .410 slug has more energy than a .44 magnum. I don't know what else has to be said. I guess .44 magnum isn't powerful enough for self defense, even though it has twice as much energy as .45ACP and 9x19. *cough* Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 A 3" .410 slug has more energy than a .44 magnum. I don't know what else has to be said....*cough* So does my Dodge Raider 4x4, but it is not good personal defense tool either. You should see someone about that cough! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fxhart 14 Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 I thought they did this on The Box O' Truth already? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 So does my Dodge Raider 4x4, but it is not good personal defense tool either. Why not? i bet given the chance with a foe on a sidewalk, it would do better than you give it credit... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 So does my Dodge Raider 4x4, but it is not good personal defense tool either. Why not? i bet given the chance with a foe on a sidewalk, it would do better than you give it credit... Now I did not say that it would not kill or maim, I say that despite its impressive energy numbers, that it was not a good tool to rely on for personal defence... Same as the .410. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Whatever man, I don't see what about it makes it not fantastic for self defense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 (edited) A shotgun is designed for rapid moving targets at medium close range. Slugs are only intended to make a shotgun perform somewhat outside the area it excels. If you are going to use slugs in a house, why not simply use a pistol, or if you believe the over penetration to be desirable, a bigbore rifle? For all the hype slugs receive, they only try to fix what a shotgun excels at! However, like all weapons, the shotgun has an interval of employment. It is really a poor choose at 3-5 feet because there is a very real danger in the probability of someone gaining control of the muzzle. Or in the hands of the average person, flagging your position. It also occupies both of your hands. A shotgun firing shot loads projects a charge of projectiles in a random pattern. Where there are no pellets in a pattern there is noting more harmful then air. If you are comfortable using something the size and length of a shotgun to fire, at best, three (3) pellets of 000 buck shot at close range hostile target then by all means do so. Also, 000 buck is a poor choice in the first place. They are .34 caliber and weight in at less then 75 grains each! You can exspect around 1200 FPS. As you may be aware multiple aimed hits with a 9mm (.354 caliber, 1200 FPS and weighing 90-130 grains each) are well known to have FAILED to stop a determined adversary. My experience in armed encounters must be somewhat different then yours.... however I have noticed that things usually go more wrong then right. Your theory depends on at least one of the three randomly patterned pellets finding vitals. I am not that lucky. If I am going to carry something as large and ungainly as a shotgun in a house I want to to deliver a more definitive load to effectively service a target. As I have pointed out previously, no military or law enforcement agency I know of issues a .410 and if one or two does, so what, they are certainly swimming against the tide of mainstream thought on the subject. Edited July 25, 2009 by Azrial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Maybe the .410 is what the gunowner wanted. At least it did the job of protecting his property.Is a 20 gauge to small too? Any gun can be lethal, it just matters where you hit the target. What does lethality have to do with self-defense? It is only a byproduct and not an interned end result. The purpose of self/home defense is to stop the criminal perpetrator from doing something that is putting you and/or an innocent 3rd party in fear of their life. If he dies a week later as a prisoner in a hospital that will be a small comfort to you, if you were trying to stop him from caving your head in with a crowbar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 If I am going to carry something as large and ungainly as a shotgun in a house I want to to deliver a more definitive load to effectively service a target. As I have pointed out previously, no military or law enforcement agency I know of issues a .410 and if one or two does, so what, they are certainly swimming against the tide of mainstream thought on the subject. That's because they're forced to use all those 9mm's that are 1/3rd as powerful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pdbh171 0 Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WardenWolf 6 Posted August 5, 2009 Report Share Posted August 5, 2009 Honestly, I just can't respect anything smaller than 20 gauge. A 20 gauge is really the minimum size anyone should even consider these days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 Honestly, I just can't respect anything smaller than 20 gauge. A 20 gauge is really the minimum size anyone should even consider these days. I know how exactly you feel Mike, but if all you have it a .410, or that is all you can handle, well you start one of these threads and argue insistently that you know better then every military and police organization in the damn world, even though you have never fired a shot at anything meaner then a deer in your life. Well it's time to hit the old dusty trail... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 For the record, I never said that the military or police should issue .410s. In fact, I think I rpetty clearly summed up why they don't. But virtually no militaries issue lightweight J Frame .38s or .357s, nor do they issue Saigas at all. Does this mean that snubbies and Saigas have no place for civilian home defense or personal protection? No. It just means that the military has a lot of criteria to weigh when considering weapons mix, and those criteria are very different than the criteria Bobby and Suzy America use when picking their weapons mix. There is a much greater role for specialty weapons and loads in civilian life than in the military. A home owner has the option to keep a safe (or four) full of guns with special purposes and to select whatever works best for the task at hand. So if someone sees the extremely light recoil of a .410 Saiga as a major benefit, they can have it (and any number of other guns) if they choose. While the military certainly has a broader selection of weapons in terms of destructive capabilities, they are, for the most part, general purpose weapons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Honestly, I just can't respect anything smaller than 20 gauge. A 20 gauge is really the minimum size anyone should even consider these days. I know how exactly you feel Mike, but if all you have it a .410, or that is all you can handle, well you start one of these threads and argue insistently that you know better then every military and police organization in the damn world, even though you have never fired a shot at anything meaner then a deer in your life. Well it's time to hit the old dusty trail... Don't quote the "no military or police organization in the world" shit again. I didn't correct you the first time, it doesn't mean you should say it again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 I suppose everybody gets to choose what they want for home defense. I have a close friend who chose a 2 1/2" Judge and he is convinced it is the cat's meow. I disagree but don't bother telling him. I just hope he stays safe in the event he needs it. 1911 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 Honestly, I just can't respect anything smaller than 20 gauge. A 20 gauge is really the minimum size anyone should even consider these days. I know how exactly you feel Mike, but if all you have it a .410, or that is all you can handle, well you start one of these threads and argue insistently that you know better then every military and police organization in the damn world, even though you have never fired a shot at anything meaner then a deer in your life. Well it's time to hit the old dusty trail... Don't quote the "no military or police organization in the world" shit again. I didn't correct you the first time, it doesn't mean you should say it again. Ha ha, yeah..... take your best shot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
turbo1889 1 Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 I suppose everybody gets to choose what they want for home defense. I have a close friend who chose a 2 1/2" Judge and he is convinced it is the cat's meow. I disagree but don't bother telling him. I just hope he stays safe in the event he needs it. 1911 I sure hope he loads it with 45-Colt loads or better yet 45-colt bullets in full length brass 410 shells using low pressure 45-70 load data. If he loads it with 410 loads, shot, buck, ball, or slug that's just down right scary. In my personal experience with pistols chambered for 410-shot shells their short barrels don't allow the velocity of the shot shell loads to build up high enough for them to be effective. Five OOO buck balls from a 410-bore 3"-mag load exiting a 19" S-410 barrel in excess of 1,200 fps is one thing, Three or four OO balls exiting the muzzle of a pistol at barely 500 fps is entirely different. I tried 410 buck shot loads once in my Bond Arms derringer and they BOUNCED off the target board instead of penetrating. From then on it has been 45-Colt loads or 45-colt bullets in full length brass 410 shells using low pressure 45-70 load data that has been loaded into that gun. Except for of course if we are talking shot-loads for snakes, then it makes sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Yeah, I assume in order to get anything out of a judge, you have to load your own with really really fast burning powder. It's like offering a .223 pistol and expecting velocity. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 Box-O-Truth did a thing about the Judge, I was thinking about getting one, then I read the article and decided not to. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ccpierce 0 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Hey Azrial, I am choosing to withhold my opinion from this pissing match, but... What do you consider the ideal weapon for home defense, seeing as the S410 is such a piece of crap Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Hey Azrial, there are many who can't wield a 12ga. what are old ladies to do? Break into my house at night and Momma will empty 10 rds down the hall damn quick! Her S-.410 UF is a hell of a lot easier to point and handle, and is a light year ahead of a hand gun in stopping probability! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
probasco 0 Posted September 7, 2009 Report Share Posted September 7, 2009 a year ago, i would have agreed, TOO SMALL! but i bought one since it was cheap and found myself shooting the 5 ball buckshot and slugs. last week i used the buckshot at 100 yrs to put 3 holes in a 5 gallon plastic gas can. while no big deal, there appears to be adequate velocity for it to do some serious ventilation up close and personal. slugs leave meaningful memories and can be followed up by buck or birdshot without getting beat to death between shots. i have a mossberg 500 alongside the bed because the sound of chambering a round is a good deterent, but the only reason its not the saiga is the barrel length of 19 inches in a rifle configuration and because mag springs can grow weak which is the last thing you need in an emergency. the saigas fast and proven ak design makes 10 rounds disappear in under 5 seconds while your eyes never leave the sights. to me, and this may not be true for you, putting 10 rounds (50 LEAD BALLS) out in that short span while staying on target is reason enough to reconsider this as a worthy tool. I myself, am glad we can have this discussion rather than one that pertains to what we would use if we were "allowed" to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 the saigas fast and proven ak design makes 10 rounds disappear in under 5 seconds while your eyes never leave the sights. to me, and this may not be true for you, putting 10 rounds (50 LEAD BALLS) out in that short span while staying on target is reason enough to reconsider this as a worthy tool. Exactly right. And while light recoil may just be a benefit to me (and one which may be outweighed) it may be a requirement or at least a decisive factor for others. Even a very small or weak woman can handle one with a short (or collapsible) stock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 Hey Azrial, I am choosing to withhold my opinion from this pissing match, but... What do you consider the ideal weapon for home defense, seeing as the S410 is such a piece of crap No pissing match, it will not be a problem for me what others use for home defense. I am just trying to help folks by telling the truth. If you think the military, the police and I are all wrong, well use what you like. And here is where I make more people mad. I like a pistol with a mounted light for home defense, for the everyday person. Moving with a longarm in the dark is a skill. A handgun does not offer as much of a problem of flagging yourself in doors and intersections and weapons retention as a shotgun. I have taught and disarmed armed people in the real world. More times then I would like to admit. I would far rather have to take away a longarm then a pistol! It also usually offers more shots. It easy to hide near your bed and small enough to carry on you at all times. Friends dropping by the home need never know what you keep under the seat cushion of your EZ Chair, just in case unwelcome guests intrude. A folding stock on a longarm helps, as well as the shortest barrel that you can legally have, but the truth is we are simply making it more like a pistol in size. I keep an AK in my room, but most of the time when I go check something out, something that happens far to often in my neighborhood, I take my Glock 20 or 21 with a TLR-2 laser/light. Everyone likes the punch of a shotgun! But it comes at a price! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 Hey Azrial, there are many who can't wield a 12ga. what are old ladies to do? Break into my house at night and Momma will empty 10 rds down the hall damn quick! Her S-.410 UF is a hell of a lot easier to point and handle, and is a light year ahead of a hand gun in stopping probability! Hey if a .410 is all you got, it is better then a sharp stick in the eye! See my above post to avoid me repeating myself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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