AR15 SBR, SBS or not possible??

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

(QUESTION TAKEN FROM SILENCERTALK.COM)

 

I ran across this question on ST.com and was stumped. Would some of our more knowledgable FFL/SOT folk answer this please.

 

ST member asks:

Hypotheticaly, if you had a .410 upper on an registered AR15 sbr lower, wouldnt you be allowed to make it less than 16in?

Or since it is a smoothbore would that be an SBS, and if so would that be another stamp to make the SBS from the SBR?

 

Thanks to all who reply,

Mike

[BobAsh 582]

Since the paperwork specifies not only the length of the barrel but the caliber, I believe it would be fraudulent to swap out a different caliber upper.

 

Remember the form is for the whole gun, there's no such thing as a "registered SBR lower".

[22_Shooter 1,560]

But can't you let the BATFE know that you plan on using multiple calibers? I've read numerous accounts of people using multiple calibers on one lower; .22, .223, and 9mm.

[VanKiller 322]

yepp, you can register for multi calibers, when you run the original paperwork.

 

but the form does not give the choice of sbr/sbs two different animals/combo meals, so to speak.

 

block C states......"Caliber, Gauge, or Size (Specifiy)"

 

best bet is to call the NFA branch in W.Va......or send them an e-mail.

 

 

Nice try , good luck with it.

[BobAsh 582]

But can't you let the BATFE know that you plan on using multiple calibers? I've read numerous accounts of people using multiple calibers on one lower; .22, .223, and 9mm.

 

But the gun in the example is already papered.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

yepp, you can register for multi calibers, when you run the original paperwork.

 

but the form does not give the choice of sbr/sbs two different animals/combo meals, so to speak.

 

block C states......"Caliber, Gauge, or Size (Specifiy)"

 

best bet is to call the NFA branch in W.Va......or send them an e-mail.

 

 

Nice try , good luck with it.

 

 

But can't you let the BATFE know that you plan on using multiple calibers? I've read numerous accounts of people using multiple calibers on one lower; .22, .223, and 9mm.

 

But the gun in the example is already papered.

 

OK, makes sense. I didn't know you had to include all the cal's you planned on using in the original paperwork. I thought you could add them at any time. Glad I found this out now.

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

It was my understanding that since the AR was of a modular design as long as you reverted to the original configuration and didn't make permanent changes to the weapon you were allowed, unlike a fixed barrel weapon.

 

I.E.

My factory Bushmaster .223/5.56 SBR has a registered barrel length of 10.5" If I wanted I could pop on a 9mm upper with a 10" barrel, magwell adapter and fire 9mm rounds, legally. Now I must return it to the .223/5.56 configuration OR write to ATF that I plan on making changes to said weapon permanent.

 

-BobAsh

You said you thought it would be fraudulant to swap out a different cal upper. Why then to they sell the convertion kits? Regardless if its a Title I or II weapon wouldnt the swap be illegal either way?

 

-VanKiller

I understand the form states SBS or SBR but when making a choice how do manufactures get away with making a .45 Colt/.410 pistols?

 

Thanks everyone for all the replies!!

Edited August 14, 2009 by MCASgt New River

[bigj480 203]

It was my understanding that since the AR was of a modular design as long as you reverted to the original configuration and didn't make permanent changes to the weapon you were allowed, unlike a fixed barrel weapon.

Exactly.

 

I.E.

My factory Bushmaster .223/5.56 SBR has a registered barrel length of 10.5" If I wanted I could pop on a 9mm upper with a 10" barrel, magwell adapter and fire 9mm rounds, legally. Now I must return it to the .223/5.56 configuration OR write to ATF that I plan on making changes to said weapon permanent.

I wouldn't want to put a shorter barrel than I have registered, just to be safe. I don't think it's illegal, but that is my preference. That said, many do it and I've never heard of a problem.

 

You said you thought it would be fraudulant to swap out a different cal upper. Why then to they sell the convertion kits? Regardless if its a Title I or II weapon wouldnt the swap be illegal either way?

Simple caliber conversions are legal on all title 1 and title 2 guns as long as you can easily return it to it's original configuration. It is my understanding that here is no need to register lowers as "multi" caliber or even list the calibers you plan to use. Register it in one caliber and swap calibers as you wish, just keep the parts to swap back. If the upper fires a caliber less than .5" it can't be a DD, if it has a rifled barrel it can't be a shotgun. If you install a smooth-bore barrel, you are entering a gray area and likely creating a shotgun. If the barrel or overall length would make it SBS, you would likely have to register the upper as such. Really, the best bet is to write the ATF IF you actually plan on installing a smooth-bore barrel, as much as that sucks. Don't write them for the hell of it.

 

I understand the form states SBS or SBR but when making a choice how do manufactures get away with making a .45 Colt/.410 pistols?

Guns like the Taurus Judge have rifled barrels, so they are not AOWs. Legally, they are like any other handgun.

[RangerM9 1]

hmm....just wondering when the heck my post on this thread went.....did i piss someone off with my follow up questions?

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

hmm....just wondering when the heck my post on this thread went.....did i piss someone off with my follow up questions?

 

 

WTH are you talking about? Nevermind I really dont care.

 

Thank you everyone that provided well thought out and written responses.

[KrisFox 69]

Since the paperwork specifies not only the length of the barrel but the caliber, I believe it would be fraudulent to swap out a different caliber upper.

 

Remember the form is for the whole gun, there's no such thing as a "registered SBR lower".

 

Wow... For once I know something BobAsh is WRONG about.

 

"Changes to the Description of a Registered Firearm

 

When there is a change in the configuration of or a modification to a registered firearm, the registrant should notify the NFA Branch in writing so that the NFRTR can reflect the accurate description of the firearm. "

 

http://www.atf.gov/pub/nfab/index.htm

 

HOWEVER!!!

 

There is a statutory requirement that ATF insist you do so; there is no statutory requirement that you comply with their demand, in this case.

 

Dont'cha love the consistency of federal law?

 

 

 

I for one am registering my MGI as a 7.5" SBR (The shortest usable barrel), the lower is marked "MULTI" for caliber so I'll list that as the "caliber"

 

I would not put a 410 upper shorter than 18" or 26" OAL (what ever is longer) on it without a letter from the ATF saying it was ok. I will ask for a letter once the paperwork is approved.

Edited August 15, 2009 by KrisFox

[BobAsh 582]

Wow... For once I know something BobAsh is WRONG about.

 

LOL Kris, I'm wrong all the time, so it's a novelty for you maybe but not for me.

 

I knew that you could modify the paperwork, but for me I would just build a new gun.

 

And I don't think I would be comfortable carrying around an NFA gun that doesn't match the paperwork, but again that's just me.

[Twinsen 86]

You could register a lower as an SBS, but then you can't use short rifle barrels on it.