5.45X39?

[Hutch 0]

what do you people know about this round, and possibly the guns that fire it?

[Tokageko 8]

Well, for starters it was the cartridge that the Russians developed after the 7.62x39, during or shortly after the late sixties/early seventies. I believe it is still their current military cartridge.

 

The case is different in a number of dimensions from the 7.62x39. The rim diameter is only .394" as opposed to the .440" of the older cartridge. The walls of the case have a greater taper than the similar 5.56 NATO. The bullet diameter is .221".

 

In it's military loading, it uses a very long (almost an inch) 55 grain FMJBT bullet with a hollow cavity inside the nose. Unlike with a traditional hollow-point, it is not open at the nose, which should aid in penetration potential. From what I've heard, as well as the shooting I've done with the cartridge, it has a very great accuracy potential. SigArms (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) actually developed a sniper rifle chamber for the 5.45x39. I've spoken with some one who ones one of the few that was imported, and he says that it is extremely accuate; as well as being very deadly against coyotes.

 

The bullet design causes it to become unstable after a very short penetration distance in flesh, causing the bullet to tumble. Supposedly this makes for a bigger exit wound. Penetration figures against armor have been suspect for a while. However, due mostly to the shape of the bullet, it should do well against kevlar. I wouldn't hold my breath on penetrating steel plate of any appreciable thickness though. Also due to the shape of the bullet, it should be expected to have better retained velocity/energy and wind-drift characteristics than the 7.62x39, and should be similar to the 5.56 NATO.

 

The gun first used (to my knowledge) for this cartridge was a modification of the AKM, commonly called the AK 74. I have a Romanian import (semi-auto of course) AK 74 and from a sandbag it gets 2" groups at 100 yards with WOLF ammunition (60 grain FMJBT). I'm going to put a scope on it one of these days and see if it can do better. The recoil is near non-existant, and it's a fun gun to shoot.

 

I believe the latest weapon developed to be chambered for the 5.45x39 is the AN-94. It's a significant departure from the Kalishnikov weapon systems, and far too expensive to re-equip the entire Russian army with. There is some information available on the rifle, but I don't feel like going into it right now.

 

On a side note, I think I would be willing to buy an AR 15 upper receiver chambered for 5.45x39. It's definately cheaper to shoot than 5.56 NATO right now. Oh well, that's an idea for another day. Hope this helps. Feel free to ask anything I've missed.

[lollygagger 1]

what do you people know about this round, and possibly the guns that fire it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah...

Romak 2 in 5.45x39mm

 

The rounds, a bit more expensive than 7.62x39mm -and alot less common, are interesting: They are flat shooting and have considerably less recoil & muzzle rise, meaning control & recovery shots are a breeze...a quick pinky on the trigger almost gets you a full auto rate!

 

The round (FMJ) actually OUT PENETRATES 7.62x39mm FMJ (Yes! That is what I said -I tested it when I heard the report.). This advantage falls off rapidly with increase in the deflection angle of the target.

 

It also has a rep for a intersting (as in nasty) wound channel -the bullet has a radical "ogive".

 

The offered FMJ fodder by Barnual & Wolf are boat tail bulleted, and perform well. the Uly FMJ is flat base, and groups broader & less consistently.

 

In practical terms, this weapon -the AK74, may be one of the best civilian choices for a combat capable weapon. It makes a nice package with a AK.

 

The round is inferior (Yes! I said inferior.) to the 5.56 NATO (.223 Rem.) -but, not by much. The AK, as a platform for the 5.56, have been glitchey and often present mag problems...this being because they were MODIFIED for the round, and, NOT DESIGNED for it. This observation is the actual basis of alot of the complaints about the Romanian Sar 3 weapons having problems.

 

That has been some of what I've heard and expereinced.

 

Lollygagger

Edited March 5, 2005 by lollygagger

[lollygagger 1]

FWIW, this was a steel plate penetration test I once did to compare 5.45x39mm ammo to 5.56 NATO...

 

1-3 are 5.45x39mm tests, the remainder (4-7) are .223 tests.

 

Lollygagger

[Hutch 0]

so, it weaker.....but it does REALLY have good leathality? due to the action of the bullet? where do you GET the air pocket rounds in the us?

 

I want one, and am thinking about buying an aresenal SLR-105, and if it CAN be that accurate, maybe when i DO get to order it, i should get the "r" model.....

[lollygagger 1]

so, it weaker.....but it does REALLY have good leathality? due to the action of the bullet? where do you GET the air pocket rounds in the us?

 

I want one, and am thinking about buying an aresenal SLR-105, and if it CAN be that accurate, maybe when i DO get to order it, i should get the "r" model.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe the air pocket is part of th mfg'ing process, and, the U.S rounds have such as a result (the Russians are said to have better 5.45 ammo than is offered to us here).

 

FWIW, don't expect the ammo currently available here to result in the 5.45x39mm being more accurate than 7.62x39mm...it's not going to be.

 

The "trade offs" make it a good choice, none-the-less -in particular for close combat.

 

Lollygagger

[Onepoint 0]

I don't have a rifle in 5.45, only a few in 223/5.56. I did get to shoot them side by side a few months ago. I didn't feel any difference in recoil myself, though many claim that the 5.45 has less, either one could be shot one handed.

 

As far a lethality when you compare the standard issue loads the 5.45 is supposed to be deadlier. In real life, the varmint loads, Vmax and balistic tips are plenty deadly to anything IMO.

 

I am pretty neutral about the caliber myself, I just figure that since 223 is available why reinvent the wheel. That really was the only thing that kept me from getting one was ammo availability, I rarely can buy it local, I have to mail order and I don't consider that a reliable source.

 

 

When it comes to these types of choices I buy it for what I use it for, not for a possible use at some point in the furture.

[Tokageko 8]

Ammo availability was a question for me too at first, but after a little looking (very little) I found some here. I think the 1000 round case was a little over $100, less than $120. I consider it to be a novelty for the most part.

 

Over here, the 223/5.56 is definately more versatile. I don't know if you can even get components for the 5.45x39 here. As for lethality/stopping-power in their military loadings, I think the 5.56 SS109/M855 loading is about equal to the 5.45x39. If I had to pick one, I would give the 5.45x39 a slight edge over the 5.56 SS109 loading. It wouldn't be much of a lead, but I think it's there on soft targets. On harder targets, I would give it to the SS109 because of it's more reliable penetration characteristics.

 

Of course, most of this is purely academic, as even though there are weapons here that shoot the 5.45x39, and some ammo, we don't know as much about it's capabilities as we do with the 5.56. There has been all kinds of work done with the 5.56, that is available to the public. There has hardly been any that I know of done with the 5.45x39 in this country.

 

As far as accuracy potential, I think that both cartridges are even with eachother. Any perceived difference is going to be because of the quality of the weapon firing it, and the lack of reloading supplies/alternative loadings for the 5.45x39. In short: I want to see some work done on this! ; ) Oh well, that's enough for now.

[IndyArms 10,186]

Just as a side note... I cut open a WOLF 7.62X39 FMJ to see if it had a steel core to it... it has a hollow chamber in the nose as well...

 

Just thought I would mention that...

 

 

[J A 0]

 

The 7N6 military load with a 54 grain steel core bullet is on the left and a Barnaul 60 grain lead core bullet is on the right.

As you can see the 7N6 has a steel core with a lead plug on top of it and a air space in the nose. This allows room for the steel and lead to shift foreword as soon as it impacts causing the bullet to become unstable and tumble. This increased damage to soft tissue over solid cored bullets. The Barnaul load preforms the same as the lead core shifts on impact so the bullet tumbles.

The Russians observed the use of the M-16 with it's 55 grain M-193 bullet in the 1960's in Viet Nam. The M-193 due to it's smaller caliber and design became unstable in less distance penatrating soft tissue than the M-80 bullet of the 7.62x51mm or any other caliber in military use at the time. A hit with a M-193 would result in a more severe wound than larger caibler cartridges. Caring for a wounded soilder on the battle field,removing him,and hospital care takes more men and resourses than tossing a soilder in a hole and covering him up. Another plus for a smaller caliber cartridge is that for the same weight you can carry 3 small caliber cartridges for every 2 of the larger caliber cartridges.

One of the criteria of the design of the AK-74 and it cartridge was to increse controlability when fired full auto. This is the reason the 5.45x39mm has a couple hundred feet per second less velosity than the 5.56x45mm and why the AK-74 muzzle brake was designed.

[Tokageko 8]

Very interesting information JA. Thanks for the pictures.

 

IndyArms: I'll have to check my stocks of WOLF 7.62x39. It's very interesting to find out it also has a cavity at the front. Thanks for taking the time to look.

 

Rock on.

 

Tokageko

[G O B 3,516]

5.45-39 -- another calliber that SAIGA's are manufactured in that EAA did not import!

 

G O B

[Hutch 0]

lol, if they did, i would rather have one of those converted!