nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) well...today my friend and i finished up the work converting over to pistol grip and took it down to the range...fired off everything we had previously shot and i can honestly say that the amount of recoil and barrel rise has vastly dropped...the general control and feel of the gun is amazing... Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x9KVD3sIcw Additions include: Ergo Grip NATO style stock w/ shoulder pad G2 trigger group and hammer (filed myself) recoil buffer this thing gave me a bit of a run for my money...i had to grind out and widen the slot for the grip lug to go in place...then i also had to modify the trigger hole to accept the double hook system...i know the DH system is not needed...mine was a single...however i like it better than single, so it was worth the extra work...i reused the stock trigger guard and bent it the way i wanted it...still a bit of fine tuning to be done with files here and there to get it exactly how i want everything...then once everything is done ill move on to the painting. rate please 1 being low, 5 being high. Edited August 31, 2009 by nemesis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lframke 1 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 well...today my friend and i finished up the work converting over to pistol grip and took it down to the range...fired off everything we had previously shot and i can honestly say that the amount of recoil and barrel rise has vastly dropped...the general control and feel of the gun is amazing...Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x9KVD3sIcw Additions include: Ergo Grip NATO style stock w/ shoulder pad G2 trigger group and hammer (filed myself) recoil buffer this thing gave me a bit of a run for my money...i had to grind out and widen the slot for the grip lug to go in place...then i also had to modify the trigger hole to accept the double hook system...i know the DH system is not needed...mine was a single...however i like it better than single, so it was worth the extra work...i reused the stock trigger guard and bent it the way i wanted it...still a bit of fine tuning to be done with files here and there to get it exactly how i want everything...then once everything is done ill move on to the painting. rate please 1 being low, 5 being high. Looks like you must have very small fingers. Not much room between the trigger housing and the trigger face. I would say it borders on dangerous. Too easy for a A.D. I would turn the trigger housing around for more room. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I think it looks pretty good, man. I give it a 3. Is it a trick of the light or did you polish your bolt carrier as well? If I were you, I'd remove the recoil buffer. They don't play well with S-12's, (completely unnecessary and can cause problems). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) ...Looks like you must have very small fingers. Not much room between the trigger housing and the trigger face. I would say it borders on dangerous. Too easy for a A.D. I would turn the trigger housing around for more room. Good point. I didn't even notice that the first time I looked at the pics, but you're right.. there's very little space between the front of the trigger and the triggerguard. Edited August 31, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) Looks like you must have very small fingers. Not much room between the trigger housing and the trigger face. I would say it borders on dangerous. Too easy for a A.D. I would turn the trigger housing around for more room. there is almost an inch between the face of the trigger and the guard...with the longer stock and the pad adding another inch the grip is mounted at the point where it is comfortable for me, and having to grind out the old trigger slot to fit in the grip lug it is as forward as it gets, in order to bring more room between the trigger and guard i would need to drill a hole further forward...i decided i really did not need to do this and used the existing hole to hold the grip and safety stop in place...it makes it a bit close admittedly however i dont see where it would be a safety issue. yes, the bolt carrier is polished what issue can the recoil buffer cause? it seems harmless, however im sure there is something i may be over looking here, so please inform me Edited August 31, 2009 by nemesis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 measured the distance between the curve of the trigger and the guard...1 1/8", my finger is .5" is it really that much of a safety issue? and should i go though the extra work of drilling another hole in the frame to bring it out further? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) measured the distance between the curve of the trigger and the guard...1 1/8", my finger is .5" is it really that much of a safety issue? and should i go though the extra work of drilling another hole in the frame to bring it out further? Well, that distance on my S-12 is about 1 3/4" using an ak-builder triggerguard, so yours is definitely far from standard. I don't think I'd be comfortable with it. Edited August 31, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lvjeffro 30 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 he has whopper junior hands...LOL...J/P That trigger guard could cause you to have a negligant discharge when trying to squeeze your finger in there... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) measured the distance between the curve of the trigger and the guard...1 1/8", my finger is .5" is it really that much of a safety issue? and should i go though the extra work of drilling another hole in the frame to bring it out further? Well, that distance on my S-12 is about 1 6/8" using an ak-builder triggerguard, so you tell me. that really does not answer the question...the trigger guard is in place to keep the trigger from being accidentally pulled...would distance from trigger to the guard, as long as they do not touch at any time, decrease its safety being closer, and increase its safety being further away? by this having 2.5" of room between your trigger and guard would make it safer than even yours, however i would tend to say with that much room it is more likely that the trigger could snag something with the extra room provided for material to come between the trigger guard and trigger. another problem i have is the fact that with me having to open up the port for the grip it is pretty much going to stay where it is...moving the trigger frame further forward to get to about 1.75" would leave a .25" gap between the grip and the back of the guard...i originally tried to make more room up front, when i discovered that the only way to get another .25 of an inch was to drill a new hole only a quarter inch away, i decided that was not worth it. something i could do would be to torch and reverse the bend of the tab that the trigger guard has...this would give me another 3/16" room between the trigger and guard...however doing this would risk snapping the tab off, thus ruining the guard and leaving me high and dry... so conclusion: drill another hole .25" forward and reform the trigger frame slightly to reach the new hole, or accept the current distance? he has whopper junior hands...LOL...J/P That trigger guard could cause you to have a negligant discharge when trying to squeeze your finger in there... as far as my knowledge goes, are you not supposed to have your finger on the trigger before you have the weapon pointed in the direction you plan to fire it in the first place? i never place my finger on the trigger until it is aimed down range at the target. Edited August 31, 2009 by nemesis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) ^ Pictures are worth a thousand words: Edited August 31, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lvjeffro 30 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) I didn't say you would negligantly discharge a round, I said it could happen and that means that even pointing the gun downrange following common practice of trigger disapline, when you put your finger in that tiny little space you might fire the weapon downrange before you wanted to...Thats all I was saying...I wouldn't want to try and squeeze my grubby fat finger into that space... Just my observation...If it works for you great... Post- thats the kvar trigger guard??? that looks pretty nice... Edited August 31, 2009 by lvjeffro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Death_Delirium 7 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 ^ Pictures are worth a thousand words: I just recently put that same grip on my S12 and it is great. It feels like it is making love to my hand every time I hold it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) ...Post- thats the kvar trigger guard??? that looks pretty nice... Nah, it's an ak-builder triggerguard. It's not as easy to install as a Tromix DIY tg or re-using the factory triggerguard, but I really like how it turned out. Edited August 31, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 here is a look inside mine...the grip lug is just off screen... notice how much further your grip is than mine? the back of my grip comes to the back of the gun...and it is as far forward as it can go in the slot...i do not know why mine is like this...i had to use the grind the origional trigger slot open wider, and even a bit forward to get the lug to socket correctly...why it is so far back? i do not know... how would you suggest i correct this? cut further forward so that the grip can move further more, then drill another hole further forward to open it up more? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lvjeffro 30 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 thanks, Not going the DIY, so its either the stock one or now the AK builder...thanks again... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 me holding it, finger resting on trigger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 It almost looks like you used the OEM trigger slot to mount your pistol grip. If so, that's the wrong way to do it. That slot remains unused, (and covered up by the pg). I cut a pistol grip hole in my receiver with a dremel, (exciting!), using measurements other forum members had provided for proper placement. My pistol grip is anchored to the receiver by a standard AK pg nut, (and the shortened bolt in the pg), used in the hole I cut for it. The hole that the front of your triggerguard is anchored to has a nylon plug in it on my gun. I had to drill two holes into the receiver a bit forward of that to mount the tg I used. Also, I don't see your factory BHO in those pics. Didn't you reinstall it? The Saiga BHO is pretty worthless on the rifles, but really comes in handy on the S-12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 me holding it, finger resting on trigger Hell of a reach for your trigger finger, man. That ain't natural. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thehopping1 105 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 As long as you don't plan on wearing thick gloves it should be fine(as long as it's comfortable). However, a DIY trigger guard would probably solve this pretty easily. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) im holding the gun in a very awkward position in my lap...holding it normally i can get my entire first digit of my finger wrapped around the trigger, and then some. and yes, i used the stock trigger hole to mount the grip lug...it is what i has gathered was done from my reading. both my friend and i fired almost 100 rounds today...felt perfectly natural and fine to me...are you supposed to be able to get your second digit of your index finger around your trigger? with yours it almost seems like you can...which to me looks uncomfortable...i dont think i would want to have to bend my finger that much to fire it...using the first digit is good enough for me... edit: no, the BHO is not in...i dont really need it...and when it is on the gun i hardly use it. Edited August 31, 2009 by nemesis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nditoto 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 measured the distance between the curve of the trigger and the guard...1 1/8", my finger is .5" is it really that much of a safety issue? and should i go though the extra work of drilling another hole in the frame to bring it out further? Well, that distance on my S-12 is about 1 6/8" using an ak-builder triggerguard, so yours is definitely far from standard. I don't think I'd be comfortable with it. Just want to lay this out there, but the last time I checked, we like to simplify our fractions especially concerning measurements Anyways, having been the "friend" nemesis speaks of, I will agree entirely that the trigger looks to forward and that it may be to close to the trigger guard. However, it was simply because there is some fine tuning needed on the trigger. In it's natural and proper resting position it is cocked back another 1/8" leaving plenty of room in there. Yes, the OEM trigger slot was used to mount the pistol grip. This was done in order to avoid as much sanding/grinding/cutting as possible given that we were working from nothing but the proper parts, no "Do-It-Yourself" kit was involved so not everything was as simple as it was for others. In the end, the installation was clean, everything is precise and comfortable and just where the shooter likes it. If you ask me, the position of everything is really just a personal preference to the shooter and there really is no right or wrong way to do it. Afterall, we are modifying our guns into something that was not intended from the factory Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thehopping1 105 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Afterall, we are modifying our guns into something that was not intended from the factory Not trying to be a dick, but they where actually made like this first I believe and converted into the "sporterized" version to be able to be imported into the US. On another note, how do you adjust the trigger? What kind of FCG are you using? I only ask because I am going to do a conversion in the near future, and haven't seen any thing on an adjustable trigger accept to shim the rear bolt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Interesting conversion! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) Afterall, we are modifying our guns into something that was not intended from the factory Not trying to be a dick, but they where actually made like this first I believe and converted into the "sporterized" version to be able to be imported into the US. On another note, how do you adjust the trigger? What kind of FCG are you using? I only ask because I am going to do a conversion in the near future, and haven't seen any thing on an adjustable trigger accept to shim the rear bolt. i think i would disagree that the models we get in the US were first pistol gripped then converted to being rifle gripped...if this were the case then every conversion would be simple because the weapons would have all of the right holes to fit everything and no modification would be needed. something i do not think people are realizing here is that nearly every single saiga converted the older way, IE not using a DIY kit, has the grip placed in a different location...the grip placement itself pretty much dictates where the trigger guard will fall... also...i noticed something else about yours post-apoc...your trigger guard does not leave much room between your mag release and it...to me it seems like that would get annoying being so close and trying to get your thumb in there to release the mag Edited August 31, 2009 by nemesis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 measured the distance between the curve of the trigger and the guard...1 1/8", my finger is .5" is it really that much of a safety issue? and should i go though the extra work of drilling another hole in the frame to bring it out further? Well, that distance on my S-12 is about 1 6/8" using an ak-builder triggerguard, so yours is definitely far from standard. I don't think I'd be comfortable with it. Just want to lay this out there, but the last time I checked, we like to simplify our fractions especially concerning measurements Oh look, I forgot to simplify a fraction. You're really going to try to give me shit over that? Imo, you can start criticizing others around here when you've figured out how to install your pistol grip/triggergroup properly. ...Anyways, having been the "friend" nemesis speaks of, I will agree entirely that the trigger looks to forward and that it may be to close to the trigger guard... Just want to lay this out there, but the last time I checked, we like to spell "too" correctly. ...However, it was simply because there is some fine tuning needed on the trigger. In it's natural and proper resting position it is cocked back another 1/8" leaving plenty of room in there. Yes, the OEM trigger slot was used to mount the pistol grip. This was done in order to avoid as much sanding/grinding/cutting as possible given that we were working from nothing but the proper parts, no "Do-It-Yourself" kit was involved so not everything was as simple as it was for others... No DIY kit is required to mount the pistol grip in the proper position, (forward of where it's mounted in your pics). You can re-use the factory triggerguard as well. You do have to cut a pistol grip hole into the proper place in the receiver to mount the pg the right way, however, (if you're not using a Tromix DIY kit). If you don't have the knowledge and/or guts to do the job right, however, you can half-ass it, as you have here, then deal with the fucked up ergonomics that this improper positioning of parts results in. If that's really "good enough" for you, fine. It's not acceptable to most other forum members. ...In the end, the installation was clean, everything is precise and comfortable and just where the shooter likes it. If you ask me, the position of everything is really just a personal preference to the shooter and there really is no right or wrong way to do it. Afterall, we are modifying our guns into something that was not intended from the factory Oh, there most certainly is a right and wrong way to do it. The proper position of the pistol grip is long established. If you wanna fuck around and mount it somewhere else, fine, but don't come here and try to tell us that it's "just as good" as doing things the right way, because that's clearly not the case. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 i have yet to find a member on these forums as immature and self-righteous as yourself, post-apoc. as a response to your arrogance i have only one thing to say, for lack of better words, Fuck You. What exactly makes you so sure that YOUR way is the RIGHT way? The grip on the origional AK is almost just like mine...the rear of the grip is nearly in line with the rear of the receiver. yours on the other hand is almost a inch and a half, if not more, from the rear...so what makes yours so proper? according to the origional design of this weapon platform your placement is WAY off. Each individual person has a individual location to where things would be best set on their weapon...some peoples arms are shorter than others and some people prefer longer stocks...in my video you can see that my arm is nearly perfect as far as bend/location is concerned, and aiming the weapon feels completely natural. another interesting thing is how you say yours is done the long established correct way...yet go though the pictures topic...your grip is further forward than many that i see...so i suppose your one of the very few people who do it right? One of Cobras: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=at...ost&id=9773 Dinzag: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=at...ost&id=9776 i could post more, but i weeded out the tromix jobs...which put the grip back much further than yours as well... so where exactly is your evidence to back your statement that i did mine wrong, short of not drilling another hole for the guard further forward? is there really a right and wrong? or are you just so full of yourself that you feel the need to police how other people decide to customize their personal weapons? also: i was not going to say anything about the fraction...however that is quite stupid if you ask me...misspelling a word is one thing...however not simplifying 6/8 to 3/4? really? did you ever even take shop class? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Afterall, we are modifying our guns into something that was not intended from the factory Not trying to be a dick, but they where actually made like this first I believe and converted into the "sporterized" version to be able to be imported into the US. On another note, how do you adjust the trigger? What kind of FCG are you using? I only ask because I am going to do a conversion in the near future, and haven't seen any thing on an adjustable trigger accept to shim the rear bolt. i think i would disagree that the models we get in the US were first pistol gripped then converted to being rifle gripped...if this were the case then every conversion would be simple because the weapons would have all of the right holes to fit everything and no modification would be needed... That's not what he meant. What he meant was that only here in the US do we have the "sporter" configuration inflicted upon us, (thanks BATFE!). Everywhere else, when you buy a S-12, you buy it with the proper pistol grip/triggergroup installed by Izhmash at the factory. For some reason, Izhmash doesn't bother cutting the pg holes into S-12 receivers that are bound for the US, (I s'pose it's cheaper). However, check out a Saiga rifle. They are forced to be "sporterized" as well, but when you tear one down, you will find a pistol grip hole already factory-cut in the receiver and ready to be used, (hint: it's not the same as the OEM trigger slot). ...something i do not think people are realizing here is that nearly every single saiga converted the older way, IE not using a DIY kit, has the grip placed in a different location...the grip placement itself pretty much dictates where the trigger guard will fall... That's not at all true. If you don't use a DIY kit, you should cut a pistol grip hole, (of specific dimensions), in a long established location in the receiver, (forward of the OEM trigger slot). Typically people don't just "guess" where to cut this hole, not if they want to do things right, anyway. There's diagrams of this with very precise measurements available in the Tech section here, if you're interested. ...also...i noticed something else about yours post-apoc...your trigger guard does not leave much room between your mag release and it...to me it seems like that would get annoying being so close and trying to get your thumb in there to release the mag It may look that way when there is no mag installed, true. Here is a pic with a mag in place: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) lol It looks like my work here is done. Honestly, nemesis, I was just trying to help you. It was your buddy nditoto's aggressive tone and ignorance that provoked my "less than friendly" response. If you doubt that what I've told you concerning the proper location in the receiver where the pistol grip should be mounted, you should ask Cobra or dinzag if they cut proper pg holes in their S-12 receivers or if they mounted their pistol grips using the OEM trigger slots. Edited August 31, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nemesis 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 lol It looks like my work here is done. Honestly, nemesis, I was just trying to help you. It was your buddy nditoto's aggressive tone and ignorance that provoked my "less than friendly" response. If you doubt that what I've told you concerning the proper location in the receiver where the pistol grip should be mounted, you should ask Cobra or dinzag whether they cut proper pg holes in their S-12 receivers or whether they mounted their pistol grips using the OEM trigger slots. you dont even know what i did to the trigger slot...i ground it further forward a quarter of an inch then widened it for the lug to come though...i find this to be easier than cutting an entirely new hole. you want to speak of aggressive tones? do you think your condescending tone and posts this entire time basically telling me that i messed up my conversion should be taken kindly? what i find funny is the fact that i already do plan on moving the guard slightly further forward...i was planning that before i even posted this topic...however being told that how it currently sits that it was done wrong and is a safety issue and whatnot rather annoyed me...there is no true wrong way to do it and it is not a safety issue what so ever. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
camon 233 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) One of Cobras:http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=at...ost&id=9773 Dinzag: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=at...ost&id=9776 All these pictures go to prove is that your trigger is too far forward and you are therefore DOING IT WRONG. Put the PG on the end, put the PG where many put it, it doesn't matter where you put it when you accidentally fire a hot load of 00buck into your foot or your friend because you didn't properly get your finger on the trigger because IT'S TOO FORWARD. PS: you got a 1 for your conversion. Edited August 31, 2009 by camon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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