Local ATF inspector/Saiga should be ok with 30rder

[expeditionx 1]

Spoke to local ATF inspector in Columbia, SC. He searched out all reasons why a saiga rifle could not be used with a 30rd mag. Could not find a reason. He looked at 922 and said saiga might not fall under this because it is imported as sporting.

He is going to ask the TECH BRANCH whether a non-modified saiga 100 percent import parts can be used with a magazine that has a capacity higher than 10 rounds-whether regular ak or saiga brand magazine.

 

Will call me soon to let me know.

[lollygagger 1]

Spoke to local ATF inspector in Columbia, SC.  He searched out all reasons why a saiga rifle could not be used with a 30rd mag. Could not find a reason. He looked at 922 and said saiga might not fall under this because it is imported as sporting.

He is going to ask the TECH BRANCH whether a non-modified saiga 100 percent import parts can be used with a magazine that has a capacity higher than 10 rounds-whether regular ak or saiga brand magazine.

 

Will call me soon to let me know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One of the problems with big federal organizations like the BATF is that you'll always find some guy comfortably salaried that DOES NOT KNOW (or may not care) regarding such questions.

 

When it is all said and done, since 922r is in effect (and basically a import reg )...the idea of legal use of a hicap mag in a Saiga sans U.S compliant parts is going to be a no-no BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT, repeat -NOT, HAVE BEEN ALLOWABLE TO BE IMPORTED in such a configuration.

 

That is the bottom line. Nothing has changed. When all the cards are laid out and the tea leaves read -that will be the outcome, again.

 

Lollygagger (This has been a well traveled road.)

[RDSWriter 5]

I do think that this issue needs to be resolved in writing from the ATF. The general crux is whether the changes in 'sporting' definition appply to post 1998 firearms. Refer to the following link for the only record that I have been able to find regarding the ATFs stance on this issue.

 

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/use...tf_letter26.txt

 

NOTE: This letter was written in 1997 and the current interpretation may have changed. Or, as I suspect, the whole argument depends on whether a Large Capacity Military Magazine (LCCMs) are exactly the same as a Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Devices (LCAFDs). I do not think they are the same as the ATF would not have defined a new term (LCMM) in its 1998 ruling. Rather, the ATF would have used the same term (LCAFD) that was created in the 1994 AWB if it meant to exclude all hi-capacity magazines from being used in imported rifles.

 

I realize that people will have a different opinion than me. And to be frank - I do not use LCMMs or LCAFDs in firearms subject to 922r. I remove enough imported parts to make the firearm exempt from 922r. It's better to be safe than sorry.

 

CYA, CYA until the ATF publishes its stance in writing.

Edited March 8, 2005 by RDSWriter

[lollygagger 1]

Here, I'll make it simple:

 

Name me ONE complete rifle that is IMPORTED WITH A DETACHABLE MAG OVER 10 RNDS CAP -NOT just able to accept a hicap, NOT just able to be modified...but, IMPORTED WITH?

 

Then, draw your own conclusions.

 

Lollygagger

[Bvamp 604]

yeh, thats pretty damn simple way to put it. look at the saiga shotguns as well. 5 rounds man. period. better convert the sucker if you want to use those 8 rounders or ten rounders in em. thats why EAA wouldnt sell the mags.

[Doerdie 0]

Correct, you cannot IMPORT with a hi cap mag. However, you can USE a hi cap mag. The Saiga is not designated a military style firearm, therefore it it is ok to use hi capacity feeding devices. It is not allowed to use hi-cap Military feeding devices. There is a difference. Use non- military mags like the USA made AK mags and its ok. As long as the mags were never military issue they fall in a different catagory.

[expeditionx 1]

yeh, thats pretty damn simple way to put it. look at the saiga shotguns as well. 5 rounds man. period. better convert the sucker if you want to use those 8 rounders or ten rounders in em. thats why EAA wouldnt sell the mags.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Where is there legal indication that American made shots guns can have detachable magazines of more than 5 rounds? And of course I ask regarding non-restricted shotguns such as NFA ones.

 

In the spirit of lollygagger's example, can anyone name an American made shotgun that can use or does use detachable mags of 6 or more rounds?

Edited March 8, 2005 by expeditionx

[RDSWriter 5]

LCMM = Large Capacity Military Magazine

LCAFD = Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device

 

To quote the Treasury departments ruling "LCMM rifles are models based on AK-47, FN-FAL, HK 91 and93, Uzi and SIG SG550 military assault rifles." Unfortunately, my research shows LCMM extends WELL beyond this simplicity.

 

To answer your question, I can't name any rifles that were imported with magazines greater than 10 rounds... not even from 1994 - 1997 when the previouly linked ATF letter/interpretation would have been applicable. So at least until 1997 you could use these magazines based on the ATF Tech Branch determination. Actually, based on some more research... you are compliant if your rifle receiver could accept LCMMs or LCAFDs prior to April 6, 1998.

 

So in short, I now agree with you lollygagger with one caveat, which is - if you inserted a hi capacity magazine in an imported rifle prior to April 6, 1998, then you ar e922r compliant. If you insert a high capacity magazine after this date, you aren't compliant with 922r... unless you removed enough US parts for the rifle to be considered US made. (Obviously, no mods to the receiver.)

 

I don't think the ATF understands the extent and complexity they opened in the other letter I found. It gets way to complicated and pervasive to discuss on this board.

 

PM me lollygagger if you want to discuss (via phone)... I think you'll be surprised, I know I was.

[Doerdie 0]

Ya know, why don't you ask for that in writing?

Im glad you remembered the LCMM thing.

Since the Saiga is a hunting rifle, it is not an AK. The AK-47 is a military assault weapon. If you keep putting them in the same catagory then your mixing oil and water. IF you just add a hi-cap your ok. IF you add a pistol grip, folding stock or in any other way change the Saiga from its sporting purpose you have created an Assault weapon. If you leave the "Hunting Rifle" alone and just use hi-cap mags your fine. Its very simple if you seperate the two classes of rifles the way the BATF does.

Edited March 8, 2005 by Doerdie

[expeditionx 1]

This thread has an ATF letter that spells out not to modify a saiga to take regular ak mags. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=3754

 

But, I have yet to see an ATF letter that outright says not to use a sporter magazine higher than 10 rounds, obviously without modifying the saiga as with a feed ramp.

 

Anyone know of such a letter that is current?

[Bvamp 604]

american made you can have over 5 rounds. imports you cannot. therefore, why would EAA import 8 and 10 round shotgun magazines to be sold with thier unamericanised shotguns? its the equivalent of being liable for what the consumer does with that mag that is only made for that shotgun. also, how are they supposed to ship them to the states? what, you mean they will ship all the guns in one container, and actually ship the magazines inside a seperate container? come on now. as for US made detachable mag shotguns, well, anything thats had a mag over 5 rounds or so has been banned by the ATF, so what exactly do you want me to tell you?

 

I put a thread up a bit ago with links to laws. i see noone knows how to use it. pretty goddamn simple here:

 

10 rounds or less in imported rifle, ANY kind, 5 rounds or less in aa imported shotgun, ANY kind, clip or tube fed... INCLUDING the benellis that everyone that has one has added mag extensions to without first replacing the correct parts first. LOADS of cops and civilians alike fall into that category.

 

I dont see what the confusion is all about.

 

the ONLY exception is 22 RIMFIRE TUBULAR FED guns. any type. bolt, semi, whatever. if it uses a clip, its gotta be ten rounds or less. the shotgun import stamp laws include tube mags as well as detachable mags, and as such are slightly different legal-wise.

 

post your letter when you get it.

[Doerdie 0]

I see, they take adding a mag as "manufacturing". Aint our government great! They spell out everything so clearly!

[expeditionx 1]

BVAMP,

 

I just emplied that maybe even converting a saiga shotgun to enough american parts would not allow use of 8 round mags.

 

better convert the sucker if you want to use those 8 rounders or ten rounders in em.

 

EAA stated in an email to me that 8 round shotgun mags are not legal/weird that they recognize this but claim the other mags 30rders are legal in saigas.

EAA wrote:

hicapacity clips are ok at this time with atf for rifles and hand guns, max by law for a shotgun is 5rds :

 

"EAA CORP" <eaacorp@eaacorp.com

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=4434

 

Did they actually sell them on the website to the public? I have only started looking in november so I don't know before nov. I assume they are restricted to LEO's or NFA tax licenced security companies that might purchase them. I asked a dealer to sell me one once and said he couldnt back in november2004.

 

 

I do figure this, if the 30 rounders make an imported saiga illegal the 8 round shotgun mags will make even a compliant parts/saiga shotgun just as illegal.

[expeditionx 1]

I see, they take adding a mag as "manufacturing". Aint our government great! They spell out everything so clearly!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Where are you sourcing from inquiring minds want to know?

[Doerdie 0]

They sold the Saiga 30 rounders...yes they are legal (I thought they were, before I read that ATF letter)?

[RDSWriter 5]

The ATF does have some significant clarification on this whole thread as the ramifications extend well beyond this particular conversation. I'm going to hold off on writing them until this summer. Some of my suppositions will either be confirmed by that time or not.

 

So unless you're a glutton for punishment like me and are genuinely interested in trying to understand how ATF interprets our laws, just remove enough imported parts to make your firearms exempt from 922r and 925(d)(3). Plain, simple, legal... and no hassles.

Edited March 9, 2005 by RDSWriter

[CrazyJ 0]

10 rounds or less in imported rifle, ANY kind, 5 rounds or less in aa imported shotgun, ANY kind, clip or tube fed... INCLUDING the benellis that everyone that has one has added mag extensions to without first replacing the correct parts first. LOADS of cops and civilians alike fall into that category.

I'm getting tired of this piece of misinformation. You have never provided a link to any currently effective portion of the Code of Federal Regulations or United States Code which restricts shotguns to a different magazine capacity limit.

 

I think your misunderstanding may come from the old AWB definition of "semi-automatic assault weapon," in which a shotgun qualifies if it has at least two of:

-folding stock

-pistol grip

-detacheable mag

-fixed mag with >5rd capacity

This definition comes from CFR 178.11, section (d) under "Semi-automatic assault weapon." It's irrelevant now, as the witch is dead... This is the *only* reference to a 5-round magazine capacity I have ever seen in federal law.

 

This may still apply to you as a subject of the state of New York, which I understand has a carbon copy of the AWB still in place, but it does not apply to most of the rest of the Union.

Edited March 9, 2005 by CrazyJ

[Bvamp 604]

i have to not only find, but dig through the tax stamps again i can see.

[RDSWriter 5]

Edited March 10, 2005 by RDSWriter

[Bvamp 604]

my last note on this topic is as follows, because RDSWriter covered what ive been stating with the federal laws:

 

Ive asked several local law enforcement officers, as well as two very pro-gun attourneys in my area about the section of NY law regarding the definition of semi-auto shotgun with the respect to clipping an 8 round magazine to it in my state, if all parts were changed to US parts to get around the import laws.

 

specifically the law here states that a semi auto shotgun is exempt from AW classification, and thus not illegal in NY, if it cannot accept a magazine of more than 5 rounds.

 

this is interpreted as, even though i cannot legally HAVE an 8 round magazine in NY, and as such cannot attach one to the gun (cant use what you cant have or get), I cannot put a pistol grip on the shotgun (NY AWB) because there ARE 8 rounders made for it, and it CAN accept a magazine of more than 5 rounds, regardless if the magazine itself is illegal to possess in NY.

 

this is why ive bitched up and down about drums for the shotgun. the minute there is one configured for the saiga shotgun and for sale to the public, you guys will go into this grey area as well in the federal laws, and you can expect an addition to the DD list the ATF has in short order upon them finding out about it.

 

see my next reply under this for your friggin proof of tax stamp restrictions on importation of your guns. anyone wishing to pay me for the hours that *I* have spent researching and finding this information, please feel free to contact me via email for my address.

[Bvamp 604]

you wanted proof for shotgun magazine limit on imports. ok, here you go:

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf

 

download that and look at page FOUR....

 

ALSO look at page TEN of that same document. it addresses parts kits or parts of guns banned from importation. this is the current document from the ATF regarding tax stamps on imports. it is strictly an import list of stamps.

 

here is another import restriction reference for your amusement:

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr47.pdf

 

the saiga rifle is a legal to import version of a Kalishnikov action, but as it is still a military type firearm, is restricted as to magazine capacity.

 

I really hate to be nasty, but Ive gone into all of this before, and Im tired of having to "re-prove" to people that the laws are THERE. It takes time to dig all the laws back out and get the current copies of them, then I have to go through them all and find the specific points that people say "prove that shit" about. I am going to start charging people for legal consultations on a part time basis if I keep having people say "prove it" to me. You might find a grey area here and there, but often there is an even MORE obscure law that DOES cover it already. Further, if there ARE AK47 "pistol recievers" registered as pistol firearms, then steel cored 7.62x39mm ammunition is ILLEGAL to possess. by any of us. ...because there is no translated letter from the ATF on it, does not make it legal. Use caution with your kit builds guys.

 

I hate to be a dick, but there you have it. Also note that I am giving actual government sites with the current copy of these documents on them and not pasting it over. "where did i get that info" ? right there. go see for yourself. there are many more documents I can cite, but like i said, Im not being paid for this. My apologies ahead of time for being an asshole about it. Reading these things always puts me in such a great mood.

[Bvamp 604]

for your reaserching pleasure I have been adding current and government owned links here:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=4206&hl=

 

everyone should feel free to use them, and dont hesitate to do your own research.

[expeditionx 1]

As far as the shot gun detachable mags, I figured the 5 round limit was pretty much a constant legal limit, even if they are American made.

Im not talking about pump action either like remington 870. Strictly detachable semiauto.

I had already seen an ATF letter posted about a no go with military ak mags in a saiga. Just not one with sporter mags of 11 rds or higher.

 

I read alot and can't find the reference to the rifles-and magazine limit.

Maybe someone can point out the page and the link.

[Bvamp 604]

the shotgun limit is on ALL imported shotguns. additional rounds added to a tube fed pump like a benelli or berretta arent legal, but hey, the police do it without paperwork, so if must be ok! to add the mag extensions to these imported pump guns, one must change out parts to make them "us made". I think this was addressed once before in this forum, actually, now that I think about it.

 

I am pretty damn sure that the kalishnikov action that the saiga is based upon makes the high caps not legal in them, BUT, if for some reason the saigas are no longer kalishnikov types (dunno how thats possible just changing the buttstock on it to a monte carlo, but what can you expect from a country run by pinheads), then a magazine that will ONLY fit a saiga rifle might actually be legal. I am almost positive the action of these guns is why high caps are illegal in them in thier imported state. It makes me wonder why SAR and WASR and those types are sold with a ten round mag and two 30 round magazines new.

 

the gun laws are a good example of "too many chefs in the kitchen".

 

RDSWriter: your interpretation of the 40mm law is in fact not true. I can see how one would think that. refer to the "implements of war" section of the US code, and also look at the destructive device general term in the importation guide the ATF posts on thier site. note that they specify the term destructive device in that document, but it is put forth as a DEFINITION, and not as importation specific. the reason it appears in that document is to state that they cannot be IMPORTED, where you could make one here in the US if you have the ok and tax stamp from the facist government prior to doing so. they shouldnt have banned 8 bore and larger back in the day, they should have banned the use of them HUNTING. instead they created an outlet for the rich facists in power to seize the common citizen's rights. I have no doubt if they knew what they were starting back then, they would have worded the ban on the big bores a LOT differently than it is so that some fool couldnt misinterpret it down the road, and steal the people's rights.

 

our forefathers had the right idea, but got it wrong and the modern form of our government in its self-serving and twisted ways has twisted the laws since to its liking, and guns now appear to exist in america for hunting purposes only. that wasnt how i was taught or read the 2nd amendmant when i was in school, and it isnt how i read it now that im not. the current gun legislation is illegal in my eyes, plain and simple. Im looking for the correct process and means now to light a fire under someone's ass and have it corrected. at the very least, the law applies to police and the national guard the same as it does us. enough of that banter for now though.

[RDSWriter 5]

Bvamp:

 

You're right on the 40mm. In my haste to put my response on the board I should have said 37mm... my bad. I meant to refer to the the unrestricted 'launchers' that people can purchase. If you own both the launcher and 37mm penetrating tear gas rounds or any of the anti-personnel (e.g. beanbag) rounds, the ATF considers possesion of both the 37mm laucher and the rounds as a DD.

 

I'll update my thread to accurately reflect 37mm. Feel free to edit your thread as necessary.

Edited March 10, 2005 by RDSWriter

[CrazyJ 0]

you wanted proof for shotgun magazine limit on imports. ok, here you go:

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf

 

download that and look at page FOUR....

Okay, this references 26USC 5844, which restricts importation of NFA items to government agencies, scientific/research purposes, and manufacturing samples. It also references 18 USC 925(d)3, which says that a firearm can be imported if it's not NFA, and

is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled

So it looks like, for purposes of importation, they're saying that a >5rd mag may not be OK.

However, this sort of specification for shotguns does not appear, as far as I've found, anywhere else. Notably, in none of the regulations appearing here: http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.htm

 

So it looks like they may be restricting the importation of >5 shotgun mags, without having any specific regulation backing that up.

In that case, you are correct, this is a "grey area" in that it's not restricted by any listed code/regulation, but is still covered on a tax stamp form that, while not in agreement with the law, may still be enforceable until altered through litigation.

[RDSWriter 5]

To clarify,

 

We're not talking about magazines. High capacity magazines manufactured prior to 1994 have never been illegal to import. Now that the AWB has expired, there are no federal restrictions* on importing/possesing magazines regardless of capacity or date of manufacture.

 

What the import permit does not authorize is the importation of a "shotgun having a magazine capacity of more than 5 cartridges."

 

*The one 'grey' area for me seems to be the dollar limitation on applicability of a Form 6 if the importer is not licensed nor engaged in any commerce of the products. I gotta write the Tech Branch on clarification before I order any quantity of stuff from overseas.

Edited March 10, 2005 by RDSWriter

[CrazyJ 0]

Right.

[Bvamp 604]

I showed you the tax stamp pdf CrazyJ...look there for your law summary by the ATF on imported/importing shotguns with cap on 5 or less on page FOUR as i previously stated, as well as the exact title and code to look up at the house of representatives to look up the ACTUAL LAW in reference to that reasoning there is a tax stamp there in the first place. the ATF is only summarising the US codes, and thier documents are only there for reference to such laws. the original written law is found at the house. ATF documents are NOT complete. do NOT go by them alone. use the United States House of Representatives website and thier current US Codes that are published by law to the general public for our viewing pleasure. It is thier way of saying that you are informed, and that you have been notified. You can look up ANY house law there, mind you, so make sure you know what title and code you want to look at or you will get lost fast.

 

I have provided these sites in a pinned topic in the general section of this forum which noone seems interested in reading. Again, I really hate being a dick about it (Im from NY, i cant help it actually. ask the local cops how i am when you tell me im full of shit), but if you want the law, go look it up. Nobody listens to me when i simplify the laws in a general reply, and then nobody seems to want to look at precisely what I am quoting when I specify a government website document to look at. Im getting a bit tired of guys telling me i am misinformed or in my early days on this forum, outright full of it, or in reference to other forums that have singled me out, plain stupid. Like I said, this is the last time I will try to translate the laws for people without a fee. The people I would give exception to this know who they are, and I dont need to list them.

 

I am not an expert, but I am by no means stupid. Do your homework. I am sure others here would agree with me in my stating that I am tired of doing it for everyone else needlessly.

[CrazyJ 0]

I showed you the tax stamp pdf CrazyJ...look there for your law summary by the ATF on imported/importing shotguns with cap on 5 or less on page FOUR as i previously stated, as well as the exact title and code to look up at the house of representatives to look up the ACTUAL LAW in reference to that reasoning there is a tax stamp there in the first place.

I did. Notice I summarized one and quoted the other.