So is it as accurate as they say.....

[cbryan 7]

So i'm seriously gearing up to buy an AK and have been pretty interested in the .223, but I want to know how accurate and reliable the .223 version is and what distance/ groupings people are achieving. I don't see many for sale on this site so I assume people really like them after they buy them.

[grendelz 61]

So i'm seriously gearing up to buy an AK and have been pretty interested in the .223, but I want to know how accurate and reliable the .223 version is and what distance/ groupings people are achieving. I don't see many for sale on this site so I assume people really like them after they buy them.

 

I loved mine, When you get past the magazine issues. It runs like a dream. It eats any type of ammo.Fmj, HP, steel cases, brass cases. Its an Ak. It justs shoots 223.

[David Mark 2,452]

I was popping 12" balloons at 500 meters with mine.

 

Not a shot I would typically take but it says something for the the quality of the platform coupled with proper discipline.

 

The instrument is only as good as the musician.

[cbryan 7]

It sounds good but Grendelz, what issues were you having with mags? the availability or the reliability?

[jimdigriz 580]

It sounds good but Grendelz, what issues were you having with mags? the availability or the reliability?

 

There are no high capacity milspec mags designed specifically for the Saiga 223. We are adapting and using mags made for other 5.56 AKs, but unfortunately there was never a spec for them like there was for 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 AKs. The magwell of a Chinese 5.56 AK is not the same as an Israeli AK of the same caliber, for instance.

 

This means that we have to modify the mags or the rifle or both to make some of the different kinds of mags work. And ones that click right in without any mods may have more wobble that would be preferred.

 

Also, the mags are more expensive than mags for the two primary AK calibers.

[cbryan 7]

do the surefire mags work with out modification? I have seen that Galli mags have been used, is that just a mag mod, i'm not into modifying the gun for the mags. but I don't mind modifying the mag.

[jimdigriz 580]

do the surefire mags work with out modification? I have seen that Galli mags have been used, is that just a mag mod, i'm not into modifying the gun for the mags. but I don't mind modifying the mag.

 

I think the Surefires are made specifically for the Saiga, but I don't want to use them personally. You would need a bullet guide for the Galil mags, and a slight mod to the Orlite exterior.

[Aermacchi 125 1]

do the surefire mags work with out modification? I have seen that Galli mags have been used, is that just a mag mod, i'm not into modifying the gun for the mags. but I don't mind modifying the mag.

 

Surefire mags usualy work but may require the rear tab to be filed slightly so you don't have to use to much force to get it to lock in place.

[bohound 281]

do the surefire mags work with out modification? I have seen that Galli mags have been used, is that just a mag mod, i'm not into modifying the gun for the mags. but I don't mind modifying the mag.

 

Surefires work great with no mods at all. I really seriously considered just buying a boatload of Surefires and calling it a day. I just couldn't trust the fact that there is a need for a built in feed ramp, or bullet guide. That part can, and does wear with time and use, plus the Surefires were kind of expensive for me to have the quantity of spare mags I would like.

 

In short, I intalled the BG. I had to modify the Surefire I used to test fire after. I ground down the bullet guide on the mag, as well as the feed lip angle to lock in. Then I had to actually file a bit off the back of the mag, because I didn't want to grind off my interdiction tab that day- I wanted to shoot!

 

Anyway, now here are a sampling of the type of mags I have on hand... A variety of commercial and milspec. They all just lock right in, with no further mods save the BG.

 

 

from left: Promag (worthless without BG)30 rounds, Steel S. African R4 mag, 35 rounds, Surefire mag, 30 rounds, Tapco Galil mag, 30 rounds.

 

The R4 mag is a Galil steel mag in every regard... Just not "IMI". The Surefire still locks in the best-ROCK solid. Next is the Tapco Galil, followed closely by the steel Galil. As I have mentioned before many times: Don't buy Promags, they are shit.

 

I have yet to try the Orlite Galil mags although they are highly recommended.

 

We didn't even start into the options you could have running an AR mag adapter.

 

As for the accuracy- DaveM said it best, I think. My rifle does it's part at least.

[cbryan 7]

I was planning a bullet guide install, seems like everyone is doing it. I like the AR mag adapter idea but it is so expensive to by and no one want to give out their specs (understandably) . But if anyone would like to give me some info I would LOVE to make the mag adapter. I'm pretty good with machining, but I'm a college student as well meaning not alot of excess cash flow, I've been saving for the rifle.

[bohound 281]

I was planning a bullet guide install, seems like everyone is doing it. I like the AR mag adapter idea but it is so expensive to by and no one want to give out their specs (understandably) . But if anyone would like to give me some info I would LOVE to make the mag adapter. I'm pretty good with machining, but I'm a college student as well meaning not alot of excess cash flow, I've been saving for the rifle.

 

I think I recall a thread by Renegadebuck dthat worked through his gen 1 AR mag adapter. You may have to search for it, but I think it's here somewhere. I also would consider (If you are handy) looking into finding specs for the IMI Galil/AR adapter, and maybe fabricating a similar design. That may be a bit more dicey though, I've read a mixed bag (mostly not good) about adapting this part for Saiga use.

 

Either way, you are correct- I love my .223. It is the perfect mix of the Kalashnikov system chambered in a NATO round that is inherently more accurate then the other options. If you have other 5.56 chambered rifles in the house or family, I think it's an easy choice.

 

Also, it seems there is pretty wide variation in magwells- ymmv on all of the mag issues.

[cbryan 7]

So which is the most reliable mag to modify? All opinions are welcomed (I've been told by lots of people PROMAG SUCKS)

[jimdigriz 580]

So which is the most reliable mag to modify?

Could you clarify your question? Are you asking what the most reliable magazine for the Saiga 223 is?

[cbryan 7]

Yeah, Sorry, I mean besides the AR mag adapter, which mags would be the most reliable to modify to work in the .223?

[jimdigriz 580]

Yeah, Sorry, I mean besides the AR mag adapter, which mags would be the most reliable to modify to work in the .223?

 

I would stay away from the AR mag adapter. AR mags are a weakness of the AR system. Even the premier P-Mag is all polymer and apparently cannot remain loaded for months and months on end without cracking.

 

In contrast, AK mags are a key strength of the system. Even though they are not designed specifically for the Saiga, the milspec ones will usually work well.

 

In terms of reliability, I'd rank them like this:

1) Circle 10s. Especially the brand new ones.

2) Weigers. (Tentative, as I've not used mine yet, but they used to be commonly used in Saiga conversions when they were widely available, so I assume they are good). You can still get high quality, lightly-used surplus ones right now.

3) Orlites. (Less durable than the Galil steel mags, but still better than Tapco/Surefire/ProMag).

4) Galil steel mags. Only ranked below the Orlites because _some_ Saiga owners have reported that the Galil mags sit too low in their Saigas. I'm not talking about an inherent reliability disadvantage to the Orlites, but specifically their reliability in some people's Saigas. Few have reported problems with Orlites.

 

Valmet and Norinco 223 mags might be good, but they are as rare as pixie dust right now.

 

The problem with #1 and #2 above is that they typically will require modification to either the rifle or the magazine. The Weigers were easier for me, in that they had no problem clearing the center support bar.

 

Here's a tutorial on modding the Weigers:

http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/step_10.htm

 

No problem if you have a dremel and a file.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[Dorky_D 8]

I have heard good things about the Tapco Galil mags. I have 3, but I have not fired them yet. I need the Bullet guide for them to work. It would be my guess that they are not as good as the steel Galil or Circle 10s, but at $13 or less, I am going to have a hard time justifying a $20-$30 mag. I may pickup a couple of the circle 10s or steel Gallil to keep loaded for home defense though and the others for range and SHTF purposes.

[GregM1 241]

I have some Bulgy 10's & Romanian copies of the Weiger. I prefer the Romy copies over the 10's since they are shorter and lock in better(in my rifle). Both work great with a bullet guide and the interdiction tab removed.

 

The Galil steel have been reported to work only with need one of Dinzags bullet guides and the interdiction tab left alone, which are different in design than others I have seen. This may be the cheapest option. They are usually cheaper than 10's & weigers. You may need to buy several and test to see which lock in best with your rifle and sell off the rest. I think it was Imarangemaster that had approx 10 of 12 work in his rifle with only the bullet guide.

 

The Surefires I had worked great without modifications of any kind to the rifle. These are not mil-spec, (which may or may not matter to you). I really liked them but I wanted to go mil-spec so I sold them off.

 

I have not tried ProMag, but many people have had problems with them breaking on first insertion or soon thereafter. A friend of mine has several and none have given him any trouble.

 

If you are an AR guy, you may wish to go with the adapter if you already have a stack of mags on hand. you can always get normal ak mags later to use also.

 

 

as you may have noticed, it all comes down to your personal opinion and what will suit you best.

Edited January 8, 2011 by GregM1

[dobravery 49]

The beauty of .223 is that if one ammo shoots crappy, maybe another shoots great. You have a variety of import steel/brass, Nato/military, US commercial and/or match, or hand-loading, and all sorts of bullets and weights to go with.

 

I know there is different 7.62x39 brands and surplus, but the overwhelming majority is steel cased imports. If you shoot crappy with one, you may not do much better with the next.

 

5.45 though the cheapest surplus-has even less variety.

 

So when some say that .223 is the most accurate, it is sometimes not just about the inherent qualities of the bullet, but also the ability to find the right brand/load.

 

My 20" shoots almost 2moa with steel cased ammo. My 16" shoots 3moa (though I haven't experimented enough either). The rule of thumb is that shorter barrels flex less and are more accurate, but IMO with AK's there are a lot of factors that pretty much makes it a toss up with any given Saiga.

[DrThunder88 912]

I'm not sure I buy the "shorter barrel=more accuracy" argument. Certainly the unconstrained statement seems unlikely when extended to its logical limits. Would a 2-inch barrel really be more accurate than a 20-inch barrel? I feel it's ludicrous to think that it would be, but gut feeling is no way to find facts or develop rules of thumb.

 

Articles I've found in the popular press on the matter only seem to indicate shorter barrels are not less accurate than longer ones, but I've not found any reputable source of information that shows shorter barrels are more accurate. This leads me to believe the argument is entirely hypothetical or anecdotal. While the contention may be accurate, I'd like to see evidence underlying the conclusion.

 

I've read a great deal on timing handloads to a barrel's oscillatory frequency. The sense I got from those articles that shorter barrels have a higher frequency than longer barrels, which means there may be more flexibility (of opportunities rather than mechanically) in finding a load that leaves the barrel at the top of a wave.

 

In short I don't think it matters much on Saigas. As dobravery said, there are more and more significant detriments to accuracy already built into the system.

Edited January 12, 2011 by DrThunder88

[dobravery 49]

I'm not sure I buy the "shorter barrel=more accuracy" argument. Certainly the unconstrained statement seems unlikely when extended to its logical limits. Would a 2-inch barrel really be more accurate than a 20-inch barrel? I feel it's ludicrous to think that it would be, but gut feeling is no way to find facts or develop rules of thumb.

 

Articles I've found in the popular press on the matter only seem to indicate shorter barrels are not less accurate than longer ones, but I've not found any reputable source of information that shows shorter barrels are more accurate. This leads me to believe the argument is entirely hypothetical or anecdotal. While the contention may be accurate, I'd like to see evidence underlying the conclusion.

 

I've read a great deal on timing handloads to a barrel's oscillatory frequency. The sense I got from those articles that shorter barrels have a higher frequency than longer barrels, which means there may be more flexibility (of opportunities rather than mechanically) in finding a load that leaves the barrel at the top of a wave.

 

In short I don't think it matters much on Saigas. As dobravery said, there are more and more significant detriments to accuracy already built into the system.

 

I'm not sold on the shorter barrel concept, but it is popular in this forum.

I know longer barrels stabilize heavier bullets better. I always felt longer barrels also allow for better complete burns for cheaper ammo. I always thought that all barrels flex and that the flex is consistent so long as the load is consistent as well as the temp of the barrel.

 

As stated though with AK's it's anyone's guess.