Magazine Durability in SHTF Scenario

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

First off, I have several good magazines for each of my rifles because I believe that a good piece of equipment will last a lifetime. But I have seen friends and forum members that literally have 20+ top tier magazines (like the Circle 10) magazines for what I am assuming is a SHTF situation or a potential ban. This equates to almost as much money in magazines as the cost of the rifle ($600 is more than I paid for my Arsenal SGL which came with one Circle 10 mag).

 

Getting back to SHTF:

 

Carrying even 10 magazines ($300 worth) at 30 rounds each would be approximately 300 rounds, which with any amount of trigger discipline should allow you to get out of a shitty situation to safety.

 

That many magazines would take up a lot of space and loaded, the weight would be around 12+ pounds which would slow you down significantly.

 

Time would be a factor on reloads if you have rioters/looters/zombies attacking you, so picking up empty magazines and taking them with you would take time and keep you exposed longer.

 

 

So my question is: With the low price and rampant availability of lightweight polymer mags like Thermolds, Bulgy Bullet Mags, and Tapcos right now ($6-8 each if you get them on sale), wouldn't those magazines be considered disposable (fire thirty rounds drop them and leave them) in a SHTF situation to get out of town or to safety?

 

I have seen it discussed that cheap polymer magazines (that lack the full steel reinforcement) are only good enough to use as range magazines, but they function flawlessly with the only real issue being wear of lips and lugs from long-term use. So if they are tested two or three times and then stored (since they won't rust) for SHTF use as a disposable mag, the long-term wear is a moot point right?

 

My conclusion (until I hear otherwise from you guys) is to use your 3-4 $30 Circle 10 magazines for long-term survival and then stockpile the cheap magazines (10+ of them) for disposable usage to get to safety and put the cost savings towards more ammo ($80 vs $300 would buy an extra 1000 rounds of ammo).

 

Tell me what you think!

[jimdigriz 580]

I don't see that $600 is too much to pay for quality magazines. You don't have to spend it all at one time. Sure, some of the cheapo mags function well in perfect weather at the range, but I don't want to bet my life on their questionable durability and reliability.

[swells08 128]

As long as my functionality is not at risk, (I run several drills with my magazines and if they pass they are gtg). My three pro-mags...(I know some hate them) and my three tapco's run flawlessly and I trust them to take out what is needed for any situation I would encounter. I live in Michigan with snow and sub zero temps, rain tornados, heat in excess of 95 to even 100 in the summer and use all the mags in the conditions without one hiccup. I wouldn't mind military surplus stuff but it has not effected my functionality.

Edited April 22, 2011 by DJ Big Dog

[jimdigriz 580]

As long as my functionality is not at risk, (I run several drills with my magazines and if they pass they are gtg). My three pro-mags...(I know some hate them) and my three tapco's run flawlessly and I trust them to take out what is needed for any situation I would encounter. I live in Michigan with snow and sub zero temps, rain tornados, heat in excess of 95 to even 100 in the summer and use all the mags in the conditions without one hiccup. I wouldn't mind military surplus stuff but it has not effected my functionality.

 

Will these mags survive a hard prone? That is, if you fall or drop with the rifle, smashing the mag into the ground, will it break?

[KC913 324]

I keep 10 or so surplus steel mags loaded and ready to go with more spares stored away, but I really have no problem using cheap Tapco or Thermold magazines. Neither of them have malfunctioned or proved to be unreliable to me in any way. I don't plan on throwing my loaded AKs from a roof directly onto the magazine or doing push-ups with my AKs, so those tests don't mean the world to me. As far as cost goes, you can usually buy surplus steel magazines for a dollar or two more than the cheaper polymer magazines, so that's just what I usually tend to buy. I do own Tapco and Thermold "Master Molder" magazines, though and I have no complaints about either one of them as far as function goes.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

I don't see that $600 is too much to pay for quality magazines. You don't have to spend it all at one time. Sure, some of the cheapo mags function well in perfect weather at the range, but I don't want to bet my life on their questionable durability and reliability.

I guess this would be region dependent regarding the weather/natural disasters. Where I live, the breakdown in society will likely be due to the political climate, rather than a hurricane/flood/tsunami/snowstorm or other major natural disaster.

 

Again, I look at long term survival as using my 3-4 good magazines to hunt and defend myself on a consistent basis... I don't think I would need an additional 20 magazines to get me through that.

[swells08 128]

As long as my functionality is not at risk, (I run several drills with my magazines and if they pass they are gtg). My three pro-mags...(I know some hate them) and my three tapco's run flawlessly and I trust them to take out what is needed for any situation I would encounter. I live in Michigan with snow and sub zero temps, rain tornados, heat in excess of 95 to even 100 in the summer and use all the mags in the conditions without one hiccup. I wouldn't mind military surplus stuff but it has not effected my functionality.

 

Will these mags survive a hard prone? That is, if you fall or drop with the rifle, smashing the mag into the ground, will it break?

In a hard prone as I practice the length of the mag causes inaccuracy, so I turn the AK so my hard prone goes fine in the snow, mud or heat of the whether. Hard prone is adaptable and if you practice one way then switching to another method will definately lead to failure of some sort. I have dropped my rifle to the deck (ground) and never had the mag break into failure...but I am sure if it falls correctly it would damage all mags. JMHO

[jimdigriz 580]

Again, I look at long term survival as using my 3-4 good magazines to hunt and defend myself on a consistent basis... I don't think I would need an additional 20 magazines to get me through that.

 

Probably not, especially since most SHTF scenarios are fantasy anyhow. ;-)

 

I don't buy extra mags with SHTF in mind, but for long term viability of my rifle system. Less wear on each mag if more get used, and I want to practice with what I plan to actually use.

 

There is little reason for one to resort to cheap all-plastic mags, when steel 7.62x39s and steel-reinforced surplus Circle 10 and 21 mags for AK74 are available.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

I am a civilian and have no obligation to return any of my equipment to my unit ordnance guy so that is where the "disposable magazine" idea comes from. I also think that if I am running for my life, I don't want to worry about keeping all my equipment - light weight means that I can run faster and be more mobile.

 

Additionally, it will likely be just me and my wife getting from point A to point B for safety/supplies. I carried a total of 490 rounds as a SAW gunner when I was in the military, but I don't plan on having to lay suppressive fire for a squad sized unit in a SHTF scenario and thus don't need a weapon system capable of that much firepower (3 mags should be plenty depending on the scenario). The majority of thieves and hooligans will stop messing with you if you shoot back at them and wait for easier targets of opportunity. If organized units (be it military, gangs, or police) are the oppressing force that you are evading or getting away from, having a visible weapon and 20 magazines strapped to your body will make you a target and you won't last very long.

 

I don't disagree that durability is crucial when you are surviving out in the hills for months on end, but I don't see the need for 20+ magazines other than as trading material or an emergency cache for resupply or helping compatriots.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

If steel mil-surp mags weren't so cheap, I'd consider buying some Tapco or other US poly mags for the range. While steel mags are so abundant, (won't last forever), I think it's prudent to accumulate a fair number of em.

 

I've got more than a few circle-10's also. They are my preferred mag, (more comfortable and lighter than steel), so I like to have plenty available. Also, because of their well-known reputation for superior quality, I know that I could get most/all of my money back out of em should I ever need to.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

Again, I look at long term survival as using my 3-4 good magazines to hunt and defend myself on a consistent basis... I don't think I would need an additional 20 magazines to get me through that.

 

Probably not, especially since most SHTF scenarios are fantasy anyhow. ;-)

 

I don't buy extra mags with SHTF in mind, but for long term viability of my rifle system. Less wear on each mag if more get used, and I want to practice with what I plan to actually use.

 

There is little reason for one to resort to cheap all-plastic mags, when steel 7.62x39s and steel-reinforced surplus Circle 10 and 21 mags for AK74 are available.

Perhaps it is simply personal definitions of what is "excess" and what is "enough" that I am trying to understand.

 

I agree that my Circle 10's and European and Chinese steel mags are the standard to judge others, but I already have 10 top quality magazines (4-Circle 10's, 2-20 rd. Hungarian Tanker mags, 4-30 rd. European Surplus) between my two AK's (his & hers). I have a few extra cheapo polymer and low capacity mags that I have in a miscellaneous mag box that work fine in both AK's. Some people would consider this many to be "excess", where I think it is "enough".

[physicsnerd 139]

This is a great thread.

 

For now I've gone the surplus steel mag route. I was able to get 6 essentially new Chinese/Yugo surplus mags for $85 delivered and 6 Hungarian tanker mags with two mag pouches for $57 delivered. So for <$150 I have 12 AK mags that will hold 300 rounds. I'd like to get more while the quality is high and the price is cheap. All those mags above were bought in January and February of this year.

 

I do want to get a pair of Circle 10s at some point because I like pairs and I've heard so much good stuff about them. But with K-Var shipping they'll probably be near $70 just to get a pair. $90 will get you a dozen NIW Bulgarian steel mags. It is hard to justify spending too much more on more Circle 10s because they're good mags but are they three times better than the surplus or NIW Bulgys? Of course, that is a subjective valuation question which is the whole point of this thread.

[Saigaczech 9]

I have gone both routes. I have a ton of cheap surplus steel that I am reconditioning with new springs and K var compliance followers plus base plates. I also have bought a goodly amount of polymer. The problem is that if SHTF or there is another ban do you have enough to get you through the rest of your life? I do not think any equipment is combat losable if you have no further supply and a long dark tunnel ahead. Carry a dump pouch, use it and you will not have to worry about running out.

[jimdigriz 580]

I have gone both routes. I have a ton of cheap surplus steel that I am reconditioning with new springs and K var compliance followers plus base plates.

 

I'm a big fan of having new springs in my main magazines. (I'd like to have them in all of them, but the expense prevents that for now). I've experienced failures at the range with a worn out surplus mag before.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

Some more food for thought...

 

Circle 10's are really hard to find right now. I can only find 40's at most of the places I shop and those are running even more than $30 each. So are they really 3x as durable as other metal or polymer mags in the grand scheme of things that wear out - i.e. springs, lips & locking lugs.

 

The reason I brought up the all polymer mags is they are cheap and easy to find locally - Cabela's, Sportsman's Warehouse, Scheels and most local shops have them. Metal surplus mags are non-existent at my local shops unless you want to pay $25 each for them.

 

If shopping online, then it is definitely better to go the route of metal surplus or Bulgy metal mags for $1-2 more. However, the availability at those prices is limited to around 5-6 dealers and most others charge $14+ for them. Then adding in $10 shipping makes it hard to buy just 1 or 2 at a time like Jim Digriz mentioned since shipping costs more than a magazine.

 

At Gun Shows where I live, the overwhelming majority of mags that are stocked are polymer U.S. and Bulgarian Bullet mags and even when you find the metal ones, they are usually more expensive $12-$20 depending on how many you buy.

 

If you are making an outside buried resupply cache specifically for SHTF, polymer will be more corrosion resistant if any water permeates your bag/box. Corroded springs and floor plates won't cause severe binding like the internal pitting and rust of the body will.

 

Additionally, an AK without a magazine (if you finally wore your 3-4 quality mags into dust and pieces) is still capable of putting food on the table and defending you reliably if you don't have hordes of two-legged creatures trying to kill you. If reliability trumps everything else, then a break action rifle would be the best route for simplicity and fewest moving parts, but an AK without a mag is at least as effective and fast as one of those with practice.

Edited April 22, 2011 by BuffetDestroyer

[jimdigriz 580]

Circle 10's are really hard to find right now. I can only find 40's at most of the places I shop and those are running even more than $30 each. So are they really 3x as durable as other metal or polymer mags in the grand scheme of things that wear out - i.e. springs, lips & locking lugs.

 

My primary consideration is not cost when putting together a rifle system. I want the most reliable parts, and so it may take a while to accumlate everything. If I was penny-pinching, I admit that I might have to make more compromises. Steel mags instead of Circle 10s, for instance.

 

The Circle 10s are the best combination of lightness, durability, and reliability. They may not be "3x as durable", but they get me at least to what I consider minimum acceptable durability, which the purely plastic mags don't. Therefore, the plastic mags are not worth it to me at 3x less cost, or even 10x. YMMV, of course.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

Circle 10's are really hard to find right now. I can only find 40's at most of the places I shop and those are running even more than $30 each. So are they really 3x as durable as other metal or polymer mags in the grand scheme of things that wear out - i.e. springs, lips & locking lugs.

 

My primary consideration is not cost when putting together a rifle system. I want the most reliable parts, and so it may take a while to accumlate everything. If I was penny-pinching, I admit that I might have to make more compromises. Steel mags instead of Circle 10s, for instance.

 

The Circle 10s are the best combination of lightness, durability, and reliability. They may not be "3x as durable", but they get me at least to what I consider minimum acceptable durability, which the purely plastic mags don't. Therefore, the plastic mags are not worth it to me at 3x less cost, or even 10x. YMMV, of course.

 

I totally understand getting the best and the mental comfort that owning the highest quality brings, but at what point is having 1 magazine better than having 3 magazines for the same amount of money if they are extras that you can't physically carry with you?

 

To bring a math equation into it, if the average high quality magazine gets 300 loads (that's 9,000 rounds) before the reliability starts to wane and one of the inferior magazines gets only 100 loads (3,000 rounds) before it is no longer reliable, then the 1/3 price ratio gives you the exact same number of reliable loads. I would argue that the real cost is in the ammo at this point and the money to buy 20 magazines is best spent on more rounds rather than more magazines or higher quality mags (that point may be different depending on how you want to be prepared - 2 mags for some and 10+ mags for others).

 

But I look at all my handguns and battle rifles from a utility to value ratio. I know that I could have spent much more to get a SCAR-H over my 10/22, but my 10/22 has a lot of utility for how much it cost. Is the SCAR-H a better combat weapon? Absolutely! But my 10/22 affords a lot more practice and a much lighter setup if I want to carry 500 rounds of ammo to survive off of at less than 1/10 the cost.

 

To a person in a survival SHTF scenario, having a cheap mil-surp handgun (like a Tokarev for $200 and $.10/round ammo) has the same perceived utility as a Custom Carry Wilson Combat 1911 that cost at least 12 times more before the survival scenario. We can argue all day about semantics of the pros/cons of either pistol, but a gun is a gun when you don't have one and the value of money has long been forgotten in a world where you have to fight to live with no hope of resupply. Again the fact that I can buy 1270 rounds of 7.62x25 Tokarev today for the same price as 3 Wilson magazines (which I believe are the nicest 1911 mags out there) means that you get to a diminishing value of having more magazines than ammunition to feed it.

 

In a SHTF situation if I had a choice between a Wilson with 50 rounds of ammo and 10 shiny new Wilson magazines or a Tokarev with 2 magazines and 1270 rounds of ammo, I would go with the Tokarev setup every time!

 

If I had a choice today, I would definitely pick the Wilson Combat!

Edited April 22, 2011 by BuffetDestroyer

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

This is a good conversation you've started, BuffetDestroyer. I just wanted to add, for me; functionality, durability, and "authenticity" trump concerns over price, (within reason). With that in mind, I don't even consider Tapcos or the other all-poly US mags as a viable option.

 

If when prices and availability of the proven foreign mags change, I might have to adjust as well.. but that's the best reason for buying "excess" steel/circle-10 mags right now, while you can get them at fair market prices.

 

And, of course, when something particularly nifty catches my eye, my spending prudence often goes right out the window.. e.g. I spent ~$150 on 4 mags this week.. but they're Izhmash 7.62x39 bakelites! I couldn't help myself.

[Saigaczech 9]

Well, one of the reasons I buy the US made polymer mags is 922r issues. I have a custom AK built out on an AMD-65 kit (short barrel and all) which I want to make sure has a surplus of 922r parts. Once SHTF I won't care about 922r as much and I will go with what I have on hand. The weird thing about the US polymer mags is they are more reliable then some of the surplus steel I have. Then again, I am not running my guns especially hard like some here do.

[Battosaii 99]

well real reason i wouldnt consider tapco or other cheap plastic mags for SHTF situations has nothing to do with wear or how they function since they seem to do both just fine but i wouldnt use them for the fact that they are weak, if you drop your gun or you fall with you gun in your hand that cheap plastic mag will break and that is something to think about most people will say hey i will never drop my guy and ok that may be so but in a high pressure situation you can fall and if you break your mag it will mean you have to clear the magwell of broken plastic and insert a new mag before you can fire.

 

so id only use a steel mag (cause they are cheap and strong) or a quality circle 10 mag they have the steel inserts and will not break

[jimdigriz 580]

I want to make sure has a surplus of 922r parts.

 

A surplus of compliance parts gains you no benefit at all, in fact it actually detracts in this case, since you are getting far inferior magazines on account of wanting extra 922r parts. Don't over-comply with idiotic laws, give them the minimum necessary deference to stay out of jail.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Steel com-bloc all the way 10x20rd and 8x30rd. Some things cannot be improved only changed.

I do have some Tapco I got cheap in a trade for a couple of boxes of 9mm ammo. Strictly range use.

[Dudethebagman 222]

Steel com-bloc all the way

 

Ditto - because they're so cheap and plenty good. They may rust eventually, but like Stalin said: "Quantity has a quality all its own."

 

I'd like to get some circle 10s for the weight savings and rust resistance, but I don't have the budget right now. Even if I did, I'd probably blow it on more mags and ammo for my 308. Or a mini red dot for my pistol...or the new Dogleg rail...or more ammo for my x39...or...

Edited April 24, 2011 by Dudethebagman

[BpS12 512]

Don't drop your mags. Train to dump pouch them as part of your reload. You never know how long your SHtf will last and if you can make it to your stash of extras before running out of ammo let alone mags. So why add one more thing to worry about. Set your gear up so the you can drop an empty into a dump pouch on the way to the fresh mag. And remember, SRSR(Shoot to cover, Reload, Shoot from cover, Repeat as necessary). If you HAVE to drop them, you've likely let yourself get in a situation that you shouldn't have.

 

And like you said, you don't have to turn them into to an issueing authority(ak the Mil) but you don't get issued new ones whenever you need them either.

 

Just a thought.