IS BUILDING AK'S FROM UNBENT FLATS LEGAL?

[Pern 0]

I see this being done all over the web, I assume building a gun from these flats is legal but I can't find anything from the ATF that really addresses it? Does anyone have real proof from ATF that this is legal? If its legal, do you need to serialize it after its built? Can you build an unlimited number?

 

I DON'T WANT ANYTHING THAT IS NOT LEGAL, ITS JUST A HOBBY!

[KC913 324]

As long as you're not selling them, build as many as you want. You don't need any markings or serials unless you transfer it to someone. You can always stamp a custom serial number and manufacturer name into it, just in case you decide to sell it. But, if you plan on building it to keep forever, there is no need for a serial or any other markings.

[L5K 162]

I'm not 100 percent sure, but I think they look at it as if you had the means to manufacture your own frames for pistols, or any other weapons for that matter. My understanding is that you just have to serialize them, and possibly mark them with a name of some sort just like a company would and city of manufacture.

[BobAsh 582]

You can make them for your own use without markings or any Gov. involvement.

 

You just cannot make them for sale.

[KC913 324]

You can make them for your own use without markings or any Gov. involvement.

 

You just cannot make them for sale.

 

In other words, exactly what KC913 said.

[BobAsh 582]

I didnt read the thread bro.

[m1lk 26]

does it still have to comply to 922r laws if you make your own build?

 

as stated in the first post, want to stay in full compliance of the law

Edited May 11, 2011 by m1lk

[Racer 27 37]

does it still have to comply to 922r laws if you make your own build?

 

as stated in the first post, want to stay in full compliance of the law

 

yes

[rob-cubed 74]

Yes, still has to be 922r compliant. And if NFA you need to apply for the tax stamp on a form 1.

 

Otherwise, no further Federal restrictions as long as it's legal to own in your state. It's not required to stamp anything on the receiver nor is there any limit on how many you can build. You can even sell them down the line, but you can't be manufacturing with the intent to sell and it must have manufacturer, location, and a unique serial to transfer to another individual.

 

EDIT: I should add that while there is no requirement to stamp your receivers, I've done it to all of mine as a good faith gesture. Should my guns get stolen or I want to sell them down the line, it's already done for tracking purposes. And while it is legal to transfer (sell) them at a later date, this can get into gray areas of intent. So most people will saw-cut their receivers and re-sell as parts kits. I asked this specific question to a BATFE officer not too long ago and he said it is "manufacturing with intent to sell" that is illegal and requires you to hold an FFL07. But there is no restriction on selling a home build per se... just not worth the risk of scrutiny to most home builders.

Edited May 12, 2011 by rob-cubed

[TonyRumore 1,332]

If you do "stamp" something on the sheet metal, do it while it is in the flat, before you bend it. Otherwise, you are going to cave the thing in, and your markings are going to be all fucked up as well.

 

Tony

[geepelton 105]

I know it's been asked before but were can I buy a flat kit?

[Racer 27 37]

I know it's been asked before but were can I buy a flat kit?

 

From what I've read he seems to be the best.

 

http://ak-builder.com/index.php

[rob-cubed 74]

AK-builder has all the stuff you need. TAPCO also sells flats but Curtis's are superior.

 

But be aware that it takes quite a few specialized tools to finish a receiver from a flat: jigs for bending and riveting, a shop press, a drill press, a spot welder, bits and reamers, and a MAPP torch to treat the holes. You won't be able to fully treat it like a factory receiver, and it takes a little finess to get the spot welds looking good. I can tell you from experience that it's way easier and cheaper to just buy a Nodak.

[Obi_wang 1]

Apexgunparts.com has a lot of good reasonably priced kits, and for akm pattern rifles copes distributing has cheap barrels.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Here's one I built with a Tapco flat on a Romanian G kit.

 

[Juggernaut 11,054]

what do you need to bend 'em right?

[presto_z 125]

Blackmarket arms makes the best flat bender on the market. I've bent quite a few workout a hickup and its much faster, easier, and cleaner then with a jig and a press.. plus you can spotweld the rails before you bend the flat which is a big plus

[rob-cubed 74]

Here are a couple of mine, post-park, with hand-engraved selector marks. And a built Egyptian on the same receiver. The easiest way to get into building is a Nodak plus a matching Romy G kit (with barrel). But rolling your own receiver is really rewarding, if any of you want to go that route then find someone local with equipment and skills to loan. Most guys who do this are happy to spread the addiction... I had some guidance on my first before I started investing in tooling...

 

Edited May 12, 2011 by rob-cubed

[akma 2]

Here are a couple of mine, post-park, with hand-engraved selector marks. And a built Egyptian on the same receiver. The easiest way to get into building is a Nodak plus a matching Romy G kit (with barrel). But rolling your own receiver is really rewarding, if any of you want to go that route then find someone local with equipment and skills to loan. Most guys who do this are happy to spread the addiction... I had some guidance on my first before I started investing in tooling...

 

 

 

Those are real sweet, you do really professional work but I have a question about the "full auto" marks on the receiver. I had a MAK 90 with those stops on the receiver back in the early 90's. I got a letter from the ATF saying I had to return it back to where I purchased it and receive a refund. They said it was a full auto receiver but the only full auto part on the rifle was the full auto stop on the receiver like yours. Nothing else. Also there were some AR-15 receivers sold before the Brady Law went into effect that were semi auto only but had a full auto stop etched on the receiver that deemed them full auto by the ATF. Is this still the case?

[rob-cubed 74]

Thanks for the compliment! Actually the Egyptian build is kind of sloppy but it's a takeoff barrel on a non-matching parts kit. No cant and shoots well even if the handguard fit is lacking.

 

What the ATF cares about is a third hole on an AK. And to some extent, the proper cutouts on the rails to allow the autosear clearance. A handful of the early MAK-90s were manufactured as FA and thus had their original selector marks, but what concerned the ATF was the third axis pin hole that had been welded over at some point for importation. ATF mantra is "once a machine gun, always a machine gun". So they went after the welded third pin MAKs, like yours.

 

This was built from a flat that only ever had two axis pin holes drilled in it, full rails, and doesn't even have the extra "y" stamp for a third pin. So the selector markings are purely decoration in their eyes, and completely legal.

Edited May 15, 2011 by rob-cubed

[akma 2]

Could you share the technique you used to engrave the selector marks?

 

 

[rob-cubed 74]

Just a diamond bit on a Dremel, and patience. You have to use a very light touch and trace the characters repeatedly.

[Pern 0]

Thanks everyone!

 

I went ahead and bought a flat from AK Builder and a G kit. I took my time, made a jig and did a very nice job building this receiver. Its perfect.. I tig welded the rails in and finished it it out with Duracoat.....well almost.

 

When I was finished, and getting ready to test fire I wanted to check the integrity of the receiver...and frankly, I was somewhat questioning the soft metal and structure of the receiver. The NDS receiver guns I've built and the Saiga rifles I have are all very strong. This flat made receiver I made just felt "soft" weak....and I just am not comfortable with it.

 

I simply applied some force in a twisting motion on the butt stock and the hand guard and I was able to put a noticeable bend and twist in the receiver........needless to say, I am not impressed with this! I am a big guy, but not Hercules! I will be replacing this with another NDS. Live and learn.

 

I am not implying that the receiver is of poor quality, not hardly, it is well made!...just not hardened. I am too picky maybe?

 

AK Builder receivers lined up great on this G kit and assembled perfectly...I recommend it...for a flat.

 

But.....if I ever attempt this again.....I will have the entire unit heat treated professionally.......which I think is cost prohibitive.......Why not just buy an NDS?

 

Have fun!

[presto_z 125]

what process did you use to heat treat it?

[rob-cubed 74]

I have to agree with you Pern, after building on a few spot-treated flats I too prefer heat-treated receivers. The non-hardened ones, just spot treated, have held up just fine but aren't nearly as "springy" and resistant to bending as the treated steel.

 

I got lucky and found someone who could fully heat treat several of my receivers (unfortunately he doesn't offer that service anymore). By the time you figure in the cost of the tooling, flats, and hardening fee you may as well just get a Nodak. Also, the BATFE has decided heat treating is a manufacturing process so if you send your receivers out, they have to go back through an FFL which adds cost and hassle.

[Pern 0]

what process did you use to heat treat it?

 

I used the "spot" heat treat method which I found to be subjective....at best.

[BobAsh 582]

Rob^3, those markings are really cool.

[Ned Beatty 39]

I would like to see the definitive evidence that you can sell a home made firearm legally, Can you provide the source of this data? Hearsay from another individual doesn't count for crap.

 

I wouldn't be advising anyone to do so, unless you can document the facts.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Ned Beatty

[rob-cubed 74]

I would never encourage someone to do something illegal, so here is definitive evidence. From the ATFs own FAQ, the bolded sections are the salient bits. The second paragraph talks about future sales or transfer.

 

Q: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?

 

For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

 

Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

 

 

I have also consulted two different BATFE field agents who verified that home-built firearms can be transferred, if marked properly and not built for the purpose of sales or distribution. It's just not worth it to most home builders to risk scrutiny over their intent, nor open themselves up to liability if their firearm malfunctions causing injury or is used in a crime. So aside from giving my daughter one of my builds when she's old enough, I will likely demill and sell as parts if I ever decide to get rid of any of my builds. However it is legal to sell them should I choose to do so.

Edited May 25, 2011 by rob-cubed

[Ned Beatty 39]

The problem is that "I" word.

 

Intent, you cant prove it, but that wouldn't stop a charge if they feel like, and if the laws says NOT for resale, they I wouldnt chance the word of anyone, especially an ATF agent.