lcswj 0 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Hello, Am a new member and this is my first posting. Please be patient, i have never even done instant messaging before. Been reading the forum for years and recently decided to join. there is a ton of great info on this site. should be mandatory reading for anyone who owns a Saiga 12. I can honestly say that the S 12 is the funnest, funniest, and most laugh out loud insane shotgun on the planet. i can honestly say that i have shot many shotguns and pound for pound they are no where near as fun to shoot as a Saiga 12. unfortunately they do not seem to have the out-of-the-box reliability of their sibling rifles. from what i have read and experienced, some tinkering is usually in order. but once properly set up, they are a thing of beauty to watch in action. which leads me to my question. i have an 09 S12 with 19' barrel. converted it myself. the conversion went well with no real surprises and all was good. that is until my forgetful ass forgot to turn the gas plug to the proper setting for slugs and 00buck. u guessed it, cracked op rod. didnt completely break but cracked at the rod neck at the gas block end and cracked the carrier openning where the rod screws into the end of the bolt carrier. this is where the headaches begin. i put a Gunfixer Gas Plug in it and decided to use some tig weld with a brazing torch to deal with the crack on the rod and the carrier to refortify both areas (the rod required a little straightening). worked great and was back in business. while i was shooting in a local 3 gun match, i noticed that it was recoiling funny but the gun finished the that stage. when i went to clear the gun for the range officer, i had to really yank the hell out of the charging handle to get the bolt back so a flag could be put in the chamber. luckily that was the last shotgun stage of the match. when i later field stripped the gun, to my amazement the op rod was literally mangled. it looked like someone put in on end and hit with a sledge hammer. the gas block end of the rod literally came off the end of the rod during disassembly. the shaft of the rod was bent in 2 directions in a "z" like shape with cracks running the full length of the rod. the rod was on its way to oblivion. that it fired 8 rounds without jamming amazes me. and it reopenned that crack albeit slightly in the mouth of the carrier. sorry that there are no pictures, dont know how to post any yet. i have since ordered a Tim Cole rod that is twice the original thickness and made of hardened stainless steel. i broke 2 drill bits drilling the cross pin hole in it. i also reapplied the tig weld to the end of the carrier and ground, filed, polished, cussed, and bled until was at the appropriate dimensions. installed the new piston which went in easily nothing to tell there. again, have not test fired it yet but noticed that the new Tim Cole rod is a little longer than the original and protrudes further into the gas block. could this cause a problem when fired? my next question is what do you do about a replacement carrier? yes i know there arent any. but seriously, has no one ever figured out from what type of carrier the Saiga 12 carrier originated? knowing those Russians, they are the masters of improvisation. my hunch is they borrowed a carrier fm one of the many ak variants and adapted it to the S12. i'm hoping the tig weld holds, it should, but if that new rod is going to be taking a harder hit fm the gas puck, i'm afraid that the crack in my carrier may resurface. anyone have this type of problem with their S12 and if so what solutions did u try? serious responders only. am tired of the "well dumbass if you had your gas plug on the correct setting blah, blah, blah. like i haven't said that to myself a thousand times. thanks for any thoughts or prayers on the subject. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I've installed many of the Tom Cole op rods and can relate to the broken and dulled drill bits, cussing, etc.... You have to measure the exact length of the op rod and carrier before changing it out. Understandably in your situation, that was not possible unless you had measured it previous to it's getting mangled. The op rods need to be beveled on the end sometimes to match the factory one, so it can be threaded in far enough. If it's too long now, it can indeed cause problems. You can carefully (and slowly so as not to overheat it) grind the end back a little to get it the right length. I had to do this with some of the first ones I installed. You can't get replacement carriers yet so you will have to go with the welded repair for now. They are not like any other AK carrier either so no luck with that.... Welcome to the active forum! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I've installed many of the Tom Cole op rods and can relate to the broken and dulled drill bits, cussing, etc.... You have to measure the exact length of the op rod and carrier before changing it out. Understandably in your situation, that was not possible unless you had measured it previous to it's getting mangled. The op rods need to be beveled on the end sometimes to match the factory one, so it can be threaded in far enough. If it's too long now, it can indeed cause problems. You can carefully (and slowly so as not to overheat it) grind the end back a little to get it the right length. I had to do this with some of the first ones I installed. You can't get replacement carriers yet so you will have to go with the welded repair for now. They are not like any other AK carrier either so no luck with that.... Welcome to the active forum! Thanks for the welcome and for the advice. sounds like you have had your fair share of experiences with op rods. i was thinking i was going to have to do something like grinding down the new rod but how do you know what to grind it down to? if you left it too long, what might be some symptoms that would show up in the gun after firing and if left to short what would be some symptoms? if too short, i'm thinking that wont be too tough to figure out probably short stroking, etc. when u say dont get the rod too hot while grinding, are you talking about the steel becoming anealed ie soft as a result of the heat? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I've installed many of the Tom Cole op rods and can relate to the broken and dulled drill bits, cussing, etc.... You have to measure the exact length of the op rod and carrier before changing it out. Understandably in your situation, that was not possible unless you had measured it previous to it's getting mangled. The op rods need to be beveled on the end sometimes to match the factory one, so it can be threaded in far enough. If it's too long now, it can indeed cause problems. You can carefully (and slowly so as not to overheat it) grind the end back a little to get it the right length. I had to do this with some of the first ones I installed. You can't get replacement carriers yet so you will have to go with the welded repair for now. They are not like any other AK carrier either so no luck with that.... Welcome to the active forum! Thanks for the welcome and for the advice. sounds like you have had your fair share of experiences with op rods. i was thinking i was going to have to do something like grinding down the new rod but how do you know what to grind it down to? if you left it too long, what might be some symptoms that would show up in the gun after firing and if left to short what would be some symptoms? if too short, i'm thinking that wont be too tough to figure out probably short stroking, etc. when u say dont get the rod too hot while grinding, are you talking about the steel becoming anealed ie soft as a result of the heat? I got to thinking about something else. When I installed the Tim Cole op rod, there was a little bit of wiggle left to the rod once installed. From what I understand this is typical and by design. But what would happen if the op rod was welded in place i.e. no wiggle. Not planning on doing this, but if the crack in the carrier reappears I'm wondering if this is an option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 None of the ones I've installed had any play at all in them. The factory ones do sometimes, which is normal, but these ones from Tom are rigid after installation...at least from my experience doing probably 10 - 12 of them so far. Maybe your carrier where it was welded, has expanded a little. Yes it's the hardened steel I was advising against overheating, so you don't anneal it. If it's too long, there's not enough room for the puck to move enough to deliver the punch it needs to cycle the action. If too short, it wouldn't work as efficiently as it should either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
datrowl 111 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I'm no gunsmith, nor am I a fair hand as a machinist, so I have little to offer other than my Sympathy, best wishes and welcome. I'll also, if it will help at all try and get measurements of my as yet unmodified factory rod to give you a fair guesstimation of where your new rod should sit at. I have no idea if it will help at all, but if you need it I'll be glad to do what I can. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 None of the ones I've installed had any play at all in them. The factory ones do sometimes, which is normal, but these ones from Tom are rigid after installation...at least from my experience doing probably 10 - 12 of them so far. Maybe your carrier where it was welded, has expanded a little. Yes it's the hardened steel I was advising against overheating, so you don't anneal it. If it's too long, there's not enough room for the puck to move enough to deliver the punch it needs to cycle the action. If too short, it wouldn't work as efficiently as it should either. I'm sitting here playing the thing and noticed that when i shake it i dont hear the gas puck moving any. Upon inspection, the op rod has pushed the gas puck against the gas plug. II'm guessing that's a bad thing. To figure out what length to shorten the rod to, is there a specification list/parts list with specs/dimensions anywhere on the web that i could reference. Do you think Cadiz or RAA might have this data? I hate guess work... i usually guess wrong. BTW, thank you for the info. Good data is tough enough to find. Thanks a bunch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I'm no gunsmith, nor am I a fair hand as a machinist, so I have little to offer other than my Sympathy, best wishes and welcome. I'll also, if it will help at all try and get measurements of my as yet unmodified factory rod to give you a fair guesstimation of where your new rod should sit at. I have no idea if it will help at all, but if you need it I'll be glad to do what I can. That would be outrageous if you could do that. I have no reference nor any data to look at for dimensions. My original rod is literally bent, compressed, and broken to the point there is no way to get a decently accurate measurement. Do you have something that will take an accurate measurement? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I can give you some good measurements......PM inbound. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Okay... what is a PM? Remember, I'm a newbie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Here ya go...lol. I sent this to your inbox... I can measure a few of my S-12s' bolt carrier / op rod lengths for you and see if there is a close enough average dimension you can go by. It really should be close enough to a standard dimension, giving that the gas block is close enough to the same dimension from the rear of the trunnion where the bolt carrier stops when it hits home. There are many differences in these damned things, but as long as you keep relative dimensions the same, it should be fine. One thing I have noticed for sure... a few of the older models I've done op rod swaps on, had more threads showing than the newer ones, after it was made the correct length (same as it was with factory rod). This was due to the gas blocks on those older ones being slightly farther forward than on the new guns. They made a change in that over the years... Shannon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 By the way.... you should be able to see a red box with a number "1" in it, at the top right of your page if you scroll all the way up. If you click on that it will open up the "private message" (PM) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 By the way.... you should be able to see a red box with a number "1" in it, at the top right of your page if you scroll all the way up. If you click on that it will open up the "private message" (PM) Got it. Any help is much appreciated. I have to confess, I'm pretty amazed at how fast the good info is forthcoming. Again, thanks for sharing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 No problem, I try to help those who need it...and want it. Need for you to get me some measurements I can compare to some of my S-12s, to find one that's hopefully very close to the same dimensions as what you have. I have quite a few of them, ranging from late 90's MFG to as recent as 2008. I also have some bolt carriers in here for service off of brand new guns. Sent you another PM... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 not sure if u got my pm for a measurement but its a strong 8 15/16". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dyogi 6 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 By the way.... you should be able to see a red box with a number "1" in it, at the top right of your page if you scroll all the way up. If you click on that it will open up the "private message" (PM) I'm already having Cobra do the mods to my OP rod. Its a small price to pay to be safe and have peace of mind but I'm just curious about some things . . . inquiring minds want to know . . . Why is there is slop in the OP rod in the first place? Is it just bad factory tolerances or is it part of the design to take up some stress? Would simply fixing the slop in the threaded section solve the problem? I would think that the piece of the carrier circled in the picture (thanks Shannon I borrowed your photo) would bend before the OP rod itself with all the material that's missing to clear the 12 gauge rounds. Is there a reason why the rod tends to be the first part to go? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 One reason for the slop in the factory rod, as opposed to the replacements I'm putting in, is the factory does not drill and pin through the op rod base like I'm doing. They just bring a big ass press down on it and press dimples into the steel on both sides....also putting impressions in the threads of the op rod to keep it from unscrewing. It isn't as solid as a pin being riveted in place though. I drill through the whole thing, then on each side I drill a wedge shaped impression for the pin I install, to smash down into and spread out on both sides. Then I grind it down flush on both sides and refinish the bolt carrier where the paint was removed. You won't be able to tell where it's pinned when I'm done, and it will be solid as a rock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dyogi 6 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 One reason for the slop in the factory rod, as opposed to the replacements I'm putting in, is the factory does not drill and pin through the op rod base like I'm doing. They just bring a big ass press down on it and press dimples into the steel on both sides....also putting impressions in the threads of the op rod to keep it from unscrewing. It isn't as solid as a pin being riveted in place though. I drill through the whole thing, then on each side I drill a wedge shaped impression for the pin I install, to smash down into and spread out on both sides. Then I grind it down flush on both sides and refinish the bolt carrier where the paint was removed. You won't be able to tell where it's pinned when I'm done, and it will be solid as a rock. I like what you do in your OP rod modification. It would give me peace of mind and confidence in the gun. I guess then that the slop is just due to poor factory quality control. Well, my part are off to you tomorrow, can't wait to get it all assembled again! Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Well, there's certainly a lot of crappy quality control going on there, but in this case, it's more of a design thing really. Most AKs have pinned pistons and they still have some play. It's ok to have some. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 After PMing back and forth with the OP, we determined his op rod was about 3/32" too long....about the same as the first one I installed, before I caught the problem of the non beveled end on the HD rods, and called Tom to make sure he knew about it. If anyone is installing their own HD op rods, you need to make sure you bevel the threaded end to match your factory original if it's not done that way already. If not, you will run into the same issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Just did 12. Length of extension from carrier #; 1-3.341" 2-3.282" 3-3.330" 4-3.359" 5-3.335" 6-3.331" 7-3.335" 8-3.350 9-3.458 10-3.357 11-3.417 12-3.385 The shaft portrusions varried a bit, but you can see a ballpark on most. Keep in mind these are all set to the gas block from the factory. On these 12 I found a more consistent point of measurement though. Left side front corner of the carrier where it butts up against the trunnion on the left side of the weapon. Most were 9.425 in total length. I did find one variation to 9.45 though. That was on carrier # 9 Thank you for posting an example of what can happen if one fires high brass on setting 2. Got any gory pics of the op rod? Pardon the high tech measuring device. My digital calipers are only 6" & the dials aren't too good for pictures. Not too many can read them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Would also like to see pics of the carnage. Was this with a light recoil spring by chance in addition to the wrong gas setting? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mpdfish 1 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Im confused...CSS makes a puc that has a nipple that pushes the puc further toward the gas holes and it is supposed to be an improvement. Yet you guys are stating a longer op rod is bad. Why is it okay to lengthen the puc but not the op rod? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 I'm glad to hear you were able to get your carrier and piston problem resolved. Hopefully they'll have replacement parts available again, like they used to. I was fortunate enough to get a spare S12 carrier, bolt and recoil spring assembly from a fellow forum member last year. Picked up a set for my 7.62x39 from another source also. Im confused...CSS makes a puc that has a nipple that pushes the puc further toward the gas holes and it is supposed to be an improvement. Yet you guys are stating a longer op rod is bad. Why is it okay to lengthen the puc but not the op rod? I'm not entirely sure the nipple actually protrudes past flush. I was under the impression that the puck is just dished (except for the center "nipple" area). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nattyiceking 33 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Would also like to see pics of the carnage. Same here Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Sorry so long to get back. Work has been crazy today. Managed to get my op rod sized to the proper length per Cobra 76's recommendations and u were dead on. The material removed was literally 3/32 of an inch. Going to try shooting it this week. U definitely know ur op rods. Thank you again for the advice and patience with my learning the site. I have a 3 gun match this weekend and was worried that i wouldnt be able to use my S12. Its the only real leg up on the competition that i have. everyone else uses 870's, 1100's, 590's/500's, and a couple of Winchesters. These are local matches at my gun club so there are no Jerry Miculek types out there. Although we have a couple of guys who have competed at the national level who are pretty damn good. I learn a lot, get to make a lot of noise, and hang with a big variety of good people. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Looking back at this op rod experience, i have made a couple of observations that may be of use to others. First, give serious consideration to going ahead and swapping out the factory op rod for a Tim Cole rod. Its literally twice the diameter and can be sized to length for a perfect fit. It is hardened stainless steel and I can tell you, it is some HARD damn steel. i broke 2 drill bits drilling out the cross pin hole. If you don't have a decent drill press and holding fixture then my advice is to have someone do it. This is one of those deceptive projects that is a whole lot more than drilling a hole. With inadequate tools you will most likely end up screaming, slamming, stomping, throwing, cussing, smoking, chewing, and, "doing" (interpret however u want). Second, if the op rod on ur S12 has some movement to it, beware. Mine had quite a bit of movement (knowing what i know now). I believe that looseness was the product of either an inadequate peening job or just excessively lose tolerances in the carrier/op rod relationship and thus made the op rod/carrier more vulnerable to breakage when my gas plug was on the wrong setting. Ideally, the rod should not have failed so quickly IMHO. For a gun that gets dragged behind a truck through the mud, then run over and then fires without failure, mine had a really brittle op rod. So if ur op rod has a fair bit of play meaning more than a 1/16th of an inch side to side, then whatever you do, make sure ur gas setting is on the correct setting. Because it seems that a rod with excessive play will literally try to buckle at the thnnest part of the rod behind the "piston" portion on the gas block end or gas pressure will try to cause the rod to bind in the lose threads on the carrier cracking it at the openning where the rod threads in. Which is what happen in my case. Once the rod gives in one or both of those places, you got yourself a problem. Replacing the factory op rod with the Tim Cole is cheap piece of mind but more importantly the new rod being "sized to proper length" and "pinned" in place corrects the excessive movement issue. This way if u have a brain fart and shoot ur S12 on the wrong gas setting u are more likely to end up with a sore shoulder and the paint dinged off ur trunion instead of a broken op rod and a cracked carrier. The data given in this discussion is good data on how to figure out optimum length when u have no existing rod to gauge op rod length. Cobra 76 is a clever individual and seemingly knows a lot for only having swapped out a dozen or so of them. Personally I think he's being modest. I'm keeping a copy of this discussion to keep in my tool box. I'm also keeping the list of op rod lengths listed to use for future reference should i end up in the same situation again. You may want to consider doing the same. Anyway, this is just my 2 cents worth. Again, thanks to Cobra 76. U saved the day or at least this coming up weekend's match. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I agree with your conclusions lcswj. There is some difference of opinion (no surprise) here in the forums on whether the play in the op-rod to carrier joint is normal or not. I agree with you and I'm in the camp that says "not good". True that x39 AK's may have some play in the op-rod, but the stresses are much lower than on the S-12. Kind of like a U-Joint on a car... it will also pound itself apart over time. Take it to the drag strip (overgass it) and it will fail much sooner. If there is a weak point in the S-12, the op-rod is it. The Tom Cole HD op-rod is a very worthwhile upgrade. Also agree on letting somebody with experience handle the drilling and swearing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lcswj 0 Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I agree with your conclusions lcswj. There is some difference of opinion (no surprise) here in the forums on whether the play in the op-rod to carrier joint is normal or not. I agree with you and I'm in the camp that says "not good". True that x39 AK's may have some play in the op-rod, but the stresses are much lower than on the S-12. Kind of like a U-Joint on a car... it will also pound itself apart over time. Take it to the drag strip (overgass it) and it will fail much sooner. If there is a weak point in the S-12, the op-rod is it. The Tom Cole HD op-rod is a very worthwhile upgrade. Also agree on letting somebody with experience handle the drilling and swearing. I'm with you on the idea that there is something unique to the op rod on the Saiga 12. I have a Saiga 7.62x39 that has had 3500 plus rounds through it and you can hardly tell its been shot. Runs like a sowing machine and has never jammed no matter what grunge ammo was on sale. There is a part of me that wonders why they don't make carrier and op rod all one piece and put the op rod issue to rest once and for all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 If there is a weak point in the S-12, the op-rod is it. So if one removes the weak link of the Op-rod, the next thing that becomes the next weak link is the thin part of the carrier shaft, right? IMHO, Tuning the gun to a good balance is the best bet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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