Over There

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Hey anyone catchin that show on FX? heheh i guess so that's why there's only 2 people logged on at shortly after 11.

Kickass get to the public through their biggest soft spot TV.

[Guest Guest]

Hey anyone catchin that show on FX? heheh i guess so that's why there's only 2 people logged on at shortly after 11.

Kickass get to the public through their biggest soft spot TV.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Get what to the public? The idea that the military is made up of kids who are all amped up and have no brains?

 

I guess that's good... I tend to think of the military as being professional and older, and of course ,that's a joke, so a good reminding is not so bad.

 

I wonder if they will actually show the iraq war as an insurgency like viet nam, or if they will pretend we're fighting "terrorists" over there.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Sorry I guess it's just me who enjoys seeing Iraqi insurgent troops blown to bits even if it is dramatization. What I meant by getting to the public was showing some of these bleeding heart idiots here that go around bitching about Bush sending all our "amped up kids" over there to die for no reason that we have people working hard over there that deserve some backing and respect. And that the people we are over there fighting are not some innocent bunch of nice people who we are just over there to bully around. Maybe it's just my opinion that these hateful bastards need to be exterminated. Hopefully the writers won't make a complete fiasco out of it.

[G O B 3,516]

The military has a long and honored tradition of "amped up kids" I know that that would probably have described at least 2/3 of the crew of the Sub that I was on. Sleep tight America, the Navy has the watch!

 

G O B

[Wolverine 10,360]

One thing that is clearly different from the Vietnam era is that we are not seeing the daily reality of what is happening on the ground through our TV sets. Most information is being filtered like the early days of Nam when the administration reported overstated body counts versus our losses. Now it is 15 or 20 insurgents killed in fire fights and 2 or 3 solders with 15 or 20 Iraqi citizens with each suicide bombing. We are not seeing what our guys are facing on a daily basis, consequently much of the U.S. population doesn't feel the depth of support our young men deserve. If I had my way I'd swarm Iraq with Marines and Special Forces and clean house but good. We'd seal off the damn borders and shake down the place until fully secured while training Iraqi's to take over. Screw what the rest of the world thinks. They won't help anyway. They will criticize us regardless of what we do. Why let the U.S. casuality rate grow without actually gaining control? It's like slowly feeding the meatgrinder just as we did in Nam until it became a monster.

 

PS.....Iraq is the second largest oil producing nation in the world. Yes we wanted to get rid of Saddam because he is evil but we also wanted to assure access to the oil in the future. We should be cutting a deal with the Iraqi'a that will assure us all we need at reasonable prices since we are spilling our blood liberating and helping to secure a nation at both a high human and financial cost. That means too bad for China and it's hunger for oil. They didn't commit anything to Iraq but its' back!!

 

Edited August 2, 2005 by Wolverine

[pistonring8 1]

If I see one more stop sign spray painted to read "Stop Bush" Im gonna lose it! Im so tired of this new wave of hippie pinko anti-war zealots.

 

I joined during Desert Storm. I cant claim to know every reason, strategy or decision that our country declares war over. Hell, I dont even really like my government very much.

 

But I do know that when we were first attacked in New York, there was not much of a voice from the people saying not to track down whomever was responsable. I cant remember a single soul crying out to leave the terrorists alone. Hell no! We were attacked on our own soil, and we fought back. And we are still fighting back. And I really hope that we continue to fight back until we have succesfully relenquished these forces who demand that the right way is thier way.

 

I didnt understand ALL of the reasons we fought Desert Storm. Im sure that I dont see ALL of the reasons we are fighting the current war. Nobody seemed to see any of the reasons we fought in Vietnam. If we have to invade North Korea, it will undoubtably be challenged and protested. And I know first hand that most of our brave soldiers in all of these wars are NOT fighting just because the government TOLD them to. They are fighting because our freedom as Americans is being threatened in some way, shape or form. And thats good enough for me!

 

You can look at war from countless angles. You can question the motives by the people and thier opposing governments. Alliances will be formed and broken and formed again. You can use whatever methods you chose to reason why war is wrong and why we have no buisness fighting. But when you step back and look at the big picture. It is about OUR freedom.

 

The bottom line is our freedom. Flying planes into occupied buildings is NO different from bombing a Navy base in Pearl Harbor. Well, perhaps it is. Its worse. I feel that some of our people need to focus more on protecting our freedoms than who Bush might be as a person, or whos motives are politically or economically based. These people need to stop examining the shadows around the animal, the fleas that reside on the animal, the food the animal consumes, where the animal lives. And just recognise the animal itself.

 

I second that..... GO NAVY!

[Smiley_Guy 2]

I tried, but I can't resist <sigh>

 

Pistonring, you sig line warns us of having our thoughts taken away. Our most precious freedom is to think, if we want to. In the service you give up a bit of freedom as to what you can think. Outside the service it is our responsibility to think carefully before we choose to send our volunteers into harms way. It is our responsibility in a democracy to be willing to oppose popular opinion to do what we think is right. Would you take that freedom away? I think not!

 

Pearl Harbor was an act of war against our military by the armed forces of a soverign nation. 9/11 was a terrorist act by revolutionaries(criminals, pirates, whatever... not an army) We took just retribution against Japan and we took retribution against the criminal regieme of the Taliban. Afganistan is now a better place because of that.

 

The same can't be said for Iraq. It might be hard to picture it but Iraq was the OPPOSITE of Afganistan. Sure it was a terrible place with a terrible leader that hated us but those places are a dime a dozen. Sadam is actually one of the reasons that al Quiada makes war on us. [yes I said 'makes war.' Washington's colonial revolutionaries were considered thier day's 'terrorists' because they fought from cover, shot officers, tarred and feathered Torries, and generally disregarded the rules of war, but that's another thread]

 

Bin Laden et. al. saw us support Sadam in the Iran Iraq war. We armed Sadam even as he was using chemical weapons against Iran. So did the French. We hated Iran so we didn't mind. We hated Iran because they hated us for putting the (evil as Sadam) Shah in power and arming him. Bin Laden hates us because we support and sell weapons to the Saud family who oppress any political opposition (him) violently. Of course most Arabs hate us for supporting Israel when everybody sees how they treat the Palistinians (but they hate the Palistinians too).

 

It's complicated. And the One Thing I know for goddam sure is that we don't want 'democracy' there. The masses would vote to kick our ass... and they could just by turning off that oil faucet.

 

The armed forces (even the Navy) are in Iraq in Our Name. We (the democracy) sent them there. We are responsible for thier well-being and thier actions. We will be praised or blamed based on the outcome of the conflict in Iraq and we are morally responsible for that outcome.

 

My father was one of a generation of soldiers that occupied Germany. The country was flooded with troops and is still in some sense occupied. Germany had somewhat of a history as a civil nation with somewhat historically defined boundries and little ethnic diversity. None of that is true of Iraq. Now we're talking about starting to pull out next spring. We've already given up...

 

That's right. I say we never should have invaded but now that we have it's our responsibility to make sure it works out. We don't have half enough people there to establish order. We'll never get enough volunteers. We need a draft.

 

We won't do it though. Our 'leaders' have that trait that pisses me off above all others: Big Talk and Small Balls. It's easy to rant and rave, shout what aughtta be done on Fox... it's just the actually getting off your ass and doing it that's hard. Send in the Marines... then forget to send in the SeaBees. War isn't easy and I'd never ask some kid to go kill and die in my name on a half assed mission that wasn't thought through. I'd never ask You to go die for me because I was too lazy to think.

[Tokageko 8]

You're right, it is complicated.

 

None of us, no matter how well informed we like to think we are, has all of the facts.

 

Leave the leading to the elected leaders.

[Smiley_Guy 2]

But We elect them. If we don't inform ourselves and hold the leadership responsible, cast blame where it belongs, how are we to choose our leaders? It seems that most people vote for friendly personalities and easy answers because they don't want to be troubled by thinking for themselves.

[G O B 3,516]

Anyone who does NOT question their leaders is an enabler of corruption and tyrany. If you don't care to think, DON"T VOTE voting is a privelige, and and that privilege carrys the RESPONSIBILITY to get off your dead ass and seek out the facts. To vote for the best sound bite is paramount to TREASON. The price of freedom is too dear to throw it away because you are a lazy ignoramus.

 

 

G O B

 

( not directed to anyone in particular, but to 'party line' republicans and /or democrats that spend NO time questioning their party , and just shout down anyone that dissagrees with what they have been told to think)

Also beware of your "friends" in office. The Clinton ban is gone, but the Bush ban lives.

Edited August 2, 2005 by G O B

[Tokageko 8]

Actually, unless you're one of those special few in the electoral college, YOU don't elect anybody (for president that is).

 

The best you can hope for is Congress keeping the president in check. I'm not remembering my civics classes well at the moment, but I don't think members of either house of congress are elected by an electoral college. If that's the case, you at least come closer to having "elected" them.

 

Now, if it were possible to get factual, relevent, un-biased information to the entire voting public in a timely fashion, then the claims made here about uninformed voting would be closer to true. As it stands though, getting that type of information is almost impossible.

 

What I'm getting at here is that none of us should ever take ourselves so seriously that we forget that a lot of those things we "know" are only oppinion, and not neccessarily rooted in firm soil. There isn't much that any of us truly "knows" for certain. Dress it up however you like, but it's the truth. That's why 90% of the reasons to vote for one candidate or another come down to emotion.

 

Vote on what you actually know, how you feel, what you believe.... as long as you vote. I'd rather everyone allowed to be involved than only the ones pissed off enough to argue on internet forums.

[Smiley_Guy 2]

Gosh, I'm not pissed off. Quite the opposite, I enjoy trying to rattle the cages of the complacent. In this world we spend too much time talking to people we agree with rather than trying to find common ground with those that we don't.

 

Sure, your "What 'is' is" argument is mostly correct but it's also misleading. Our "leaders" mostly follow. they follow polls. They respond to public pressure. My presidential vote goes to elect electors appointed by the candidates' parties. They vote for who I tell 'em to vote for. If I doubt it I can go to conventions and vote on electors or choose to run myself.

 

[Where the electoral college would come in handy is if a president elect were to die or refuse to serve. another thread]

 

The public should, IMHO, get off thier wide-sides long enough to do a little looking, a little digging, and a little critical thinking. You can never wholly trust any one source of truth that is delivered to you by someone else. people are falible and will be tempted to let thier bias guide thier reporting even if unconscious. People also like to hear things that are good for themselves. Things like: "you need a tax break," "It's not your fault," "You are the master race..." You've got to look at multiple sources and Filter what you hear using your mind. Always question your own motives before you choose believe.

 

So why do I say anything? I know it's not popular to disagree, but... The Germans went along with the Nazis. They were as a people responsible for the actions they allowed thier leaders to take. And the Japanese, and the Serbs, the Rwandan Hutus, and, yes, the Afgan Taliban who harbored al Quiada. History will hold me accountable for what is done in my time and in my name.

 

Most of all I won't sit by and listen to the brash say it's "unAmerican" to speak ones mind (the 'stop sign' remark or your more subtle enjoinder). We spend a lot of time talking here about the second amendment in the Bill Of Rights. I'd like to remind you of the first.

[Wolverine 10,360]

OK. I note that even Smiley thinks we (the U.S.A.) are a democracy. Sorry, but our Constitution reads the U.S.A. is a republic with certain rights guaranteed to every citizen that may not be deprived regardless of what the majority or minority believe or want. To the extent that our right of gun ownership, free speech, or any other freedom and/or right granted under the Constitution is infringed upon through the "democratic process of majority rule" is illegal and contrary to the founding fathers expressed intent. We have fallen off the track as a nation because of the false belief that the democratic process is the supreme authoity along with a "supreme court" that has illegally taken on the role of legislating new law rather than properly interpreting law generated through the established but limited legislative branch process. In short, we are a broken nation because we are allowing our misguided leaders to swing our sovereign and absolute rights on a political pendulum while denying or restricting our Constitutionally guarateed rights and declaring we are a free democracy.

 

Wolverine

[pistonring8 1]

That is exactly the stuff Im talking about. The stuff that neither I or most of the rest of us good ole boys understand "behind" the war. I dont know (or probably ever will) ALL of the underlying reasons for this war, or that war, or the other war.

 

What I DO know is that Bush or anybody else really didnt have much of a choice after 9/11. We screamed for blood and vengance and the heads of our attackers on spits. Now we are chasing them down and getting them.

 

What sense does "Stop Bush" make? Its not a political statement, its vandelism. As much as you bleeding hearts would love to believe that Bush is an entity all his own, he really is not. I dont even think that the President has any ultimate power. Ive always thought of him as a kind of front man. I dont think that the Bush dynasty gets together on weekends and dances around a sacrifical fire all buck nekkid patting eachother on the back for thier various conquests. But I might be wrong, I dunno. I know jack about politics.

 

If we had not struck with swiftness and ferocity, it would have left the doors open for every Habib with C-4 and a click fuse to make his fame on our civilians. Like I said before, I dont know what all the reasons are behind it. I see our freedom being threatened, I see our people being struck down. If I could have re joined, I would have. Not because the government told me to. Not because of whatever you guys said up there about political something or other. But because I felt like I got punched in the nose and I should get up swinging.

 

Perhaps I am just poor white trash without the benifit of a college education and a nice brownstone in San Francisco. Thats ok, us dumb rednecks need you guys to point out stuff like this to us every once and awhile. Because if everyone were like me, someone would have pushed the button at around noon time that September and turned most of the middle east into a glass fishbowl. Then petrolium for your Saab would be cheap again.

 

 

Hey! I almost forgot how much fun this was.

[Wolverine 10,360]

I have no problem with the Iraq war other than we are not commiting what is required to get it done. You'll note the UK did not screw around with the would be bombers. They are in a no bullshit mode. We should be too.

 

I would add the Constitution says President Bush needed the authority of Congress to declare war in Iraq but like many others before him took action as Commander and Chief without that express authority.

 

I also note we did not do a great job of convincing the rest of the world of the justification for the invasion of Iraq. While there are certainly Islamic extremists in Iraq they can be found all over the world including in the U.S.A. Is Iran any different with its' eye on nuclear weapons?

 

As I said before, yes Saddam is evil, yes there were and are extremists in Iraq......maybe more now than ever since we are standing on their "holy" ground. But don't think for a moment that Iraq's oil reserve was not a major consideration as it impacts our welfare, and the jihadists know it.

 

We didn't chase down 9/11 terrorists to Iraq. There was no known link between 9/11 and Iraq. It is a well known fact that Condi Rice was talking about justification for the invasion of Iraq less than six months after 9/11. Yet, we had not yet located Bin Laden. For that matter we don't have him yet.

 

Don't get me wrong. I am as conservative as they come but lets call a spade a spade. We are acting out of self interest and survival. As ordinary citizens we will never know all of the reasons of why we invaded Iraq when we did but we will bear the consequences for a long time to come. The cost will be high in terms of life and dollars. We are not only at war in Iraq but around the globe wherever Islamic extremists exist. We are viewed as infidels worthy of death. The only solution will be to locate and extinguish the extremists before they hurt other U.S. citizens. They are committed and will not quit and neither should we or other innocent people will die.

 

As I indicated above we should commit sufficent troops and resources to Iraq to get the job done quickly.

 

http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=.../03/193750.html

 

 

Wolverine

[Tokageko 8]

I also must admit that I do believe it is imperative that the people are an active part of the government. I'm going to disagree of the "following polls" thing though. While we did recently have one president who would barely be able to brush his teeth if there wasn't a poll, the current president isn't near as bad. One of the things I liked most during his first campaign was when he said that he didn't care if he was only a one-term president. I liked that attitude. Through the years, he has changed though. He has actually become LESS of a cowboy. He pays much more attention to political fallout now than he did before. I'm not going to speculate here on what caused the change. He does seem to be more concious of those polls now though.

 

Is it a good thing? I'm not sure. I am sure, however, that going into Iraq was the right thing for the US to do, at this time. I love it when people point out how "we" helped Iraq fight Iran and didn't lift a finger earlier when they were using chemical weapons, etc. etc. The fact is, our country doesn't have a strict policy on much of anything, because our leadership changes every 4-8 years. It drives the rest of the world nuts. Is that a good thing? It really depends on your prespective.

 

Is questioning everything the government does a good thing? hehehe That one depends on your perspective also. I figure that roughly half of the politically savvy people in this nation are unhappy at any given time. I could choose to think that they're going to do all of the questioning that needs to be done (while the other half of the politically saavy people are happy with the status quo). It doesn't seem to be a one for one trade though. Not all of the people who are unhappy now are going to become happy after the next election, and not all of the happy people are going to become unhappy. Ideally, I think that if the government is going to be questioned, it should be done in an unbiased manner (insert side-splitting laughter here). Unfortuneately, not all of those who are unhappy have the same chance at being heard.

 

Somewhere I lost my train of thought... I'll pick it up later.

[Smiley_Guy 2]

Wolverine,

 

I wanna give ya a big liberal-pinko hug!

 

We Don't know why we went into Iraq. It wasn't WMD and it wasn't al Quiada. We do not know why we're there and why our brave troops are dieing.

 

And you are absolutely right that, now that we're there, we gotta win. Our honor is on the line. Here is another chance for the determined idealist to face us down and for us to run away. Nothing could be worse for the future of the american people than for our military to seem as impotent. defeat is not an option.

 

So why did we say this week we might start pullouts as early as this coming spring? Why don't we have enough troops there to police the roads? How can we let the terrorists get away with kidnaping every diplomat or foriegn worker that goes out in public. It makes us look weak.

 

Our leaders were arrogant. They held low value for the lives of those in the armed forces. They underestimated the enemy. They read too much Tom Clancy, and they believed it. They are reducing you rights, right now, here, today.

 

They can declare you an enemy combatant with no evedince and take you away to where even the Geneva Convention doesn't count. They can see what books you read. They want to be able to use the CIA to watch you. What makes you think they care about your second amendment rights when it was a Republican government in power when they decided to outlaw AK kits.

 

I don't like to call people names... but I want to be sure you've heard the term "Chickenhawks." That's people that find it easy to send Other people to fight. If you wanna fight you gotta put your money where your mouth is. Not many people that have seen war send people to war. Only fucktard asshole loudmouths like Rumsfeld think war is easy... you Do remember that, right?

 

What this administration has done is Treason, and they should hang.

[Smiley_Guy 2]

Tok,

 

Sorry to derail that train... Did you say you are glad we went into Iraq? Why? It furthers our interests? You Do know that the Democratic Government of Soverign and Free Iraq met with the new Iranian PM last week and agreed to a military defense pact informally? Explain how that's good for us. We invaded impotent Iraq that was under our thumb while our 'buddies' Iran and N Korea are (almost) openly building nukes. Think of Iran with Nukes... I know I don't want to.

 

We're so sucked up to Pakistan now that we can't lean on them about thier nukes and the technology they are peddeling all around the world right now, today.

 

We have spurned those bad guys Syria. Syria is a non-fundimentalist state that almost has some democracy. Syria as our allie could help us rule Iraq. But Israel doesn't like 'em and thier polls damn sure count.

 

As a politically aware taxpayer in the '80s I did support Iraq. I even, god forbid, voted for Reagan the first time. I also supported the Freedom Fighters of Afganistan that we call al Quiada today.

 

The problem is that people have a long memory when they percieve a wrong against them. Look at what the Serbs did to Kosovo for what happened 600 odd years ago. Look at how people still get thier blood up over the confederate battle flag. What we do today will have effects long after we're gone.

 

War kills lots of people. We hear on the news that so-and-so many 'insurgents' were killed today. how many of those were just some guy that picked the wrong street to walk down. How many people were in that guy's family. Do they now love democracy, freedom, and the american way? All they know is that there was no war until the americans came. They will hate us and they will teach thier children to hate us.

 

If a nation goes to war it should be for something, something identifiable, obvious, and just. To do otherwise is a crime.

[Wolverine 10,360]

Smiley,

 

We know why we went into Iraq: To remove a murderous dictator while assuring continued access to oil that is absolutely critical to our economy and independence as a nation. Saddam had the wealth, power, and desire to hurt the U.S. And, yes to finish what George Bush Sr. started.

 

Smiley, you just tripped across an honest conservative that's all.

 

What this administration has done is no worse than what any Democrat president has done. Clinton kept us out of war by playing ostrage while the network of terrorists were organizing under our noses. Clinton was aware of their activities but chose not to confront them. Is that any less treasoness?

 

Bush's mistake was not letting Colin Powell hold Rumsfeldt in check. It was obvious there was not going to be a quick exit from Iraq. I frankly think that was considered and even planned. That is also why the Iraqi's want us to get out as fast as we can. They have no desire to be controlled or occupied. On the otherhand if we leave too quickly the extremists will be in control within 30 days.

 

Swinging politically right or left is not going to fix shit. We need to return to telling the focking truth and following the U.S. Constitution as written. The two political parties have reduced the process to mutual attacks and smear campaigns with more time, money and energy spent on party and personal interests than the welfare of the people and republic. Leadership has been reduced to partisan politics. That's why no third party has a prayer of a chance of winning. It simply draws votes off from who might have won. So voting today is usually just a concession for the lessor of evils. As a result many don't vote thinking it won't make any difference anyway.

 

To stop the pendulum we need to have the citizenry declare it wants the Constitution followed as written. There are constraints on what the law makers may address and change. The law makers purpose is reflected in the Constitution. They have usurped power and authority not granted other than by a passive citizenry. Their authority is self appointed as is their self appointed pay raises. Congress does not have the Constitutional authority to enact laws requiring social programs paid for by citizen taxpayers. How many citizens are paying for welfare case abortions contrary to their religious beliefs? They rank in the millions now. Government was intended to be limited by the Constitution rather than empowering itself to grow beyond specified Constitutional purposes and then at the taxpayers expense.

 

No, I'm not a liberal. I simply believe we have a run away government that needs to be reigned in and abide by the terms of the U.S. Constitution. But it has been permitted to control for so long that the average citizen actually believes this is normal and justified. Those that don't know they are facing a monster with enormous power. Where do I think it will end. The same as always in the cycle of liberty won and lost. The mass of sheep will continue to be fleeced until most if not all of our liberty is lost.

 

Even now there is a tiny electronic capsule that has been developed that can be implanted under the skin that contains tons of private information about the individual. The current focus is on use for medical history in treating patients. But as technology grows and identity theft continues as an issue the day will come when we will be required to pass biometric testing to affirm our identity for virtually everything. Our freedoms will ebb away as so called sound reasons for centralized information grows based on practicality and national security.

 

Everything points to our passive willingness to give away our freedom for the sake of being taken care of and out of practical expediency. No one wants to face hardship or sacrifice. No one thinks that things are bad enough to become radical. Slowly and incrementally we walk down the path. Someday we will turn around and see our grown children all but enslaved and we will have condoned every step of the loss of our freedom.

 

Wolverine

[Smiley_Guy 2]

On so many points we totally disagree, but on this one:

 

"Everything points to our passive willingness to give away our freedom for the sake of being taken care of..."

 

We couldn't agree more.

 

I respect you civilized and thoughtful tone. The nature of our society is that we find just enough common ground to make it work. We'll never agree on everything. It wouldn't be healthy if we did.

 

It seems that we agree that all people should be more active in determining what our future will be.

---

 

I'm off to spend a couple weeks with cool wind and clean water. keep an eye on things for me :-)

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Man I guess I opened up a can of worms!

While on the subject of war, here's something interesting an army friend just sent me.

 

Army Prepares to Reorganize

Associated Press | July 28, 2005

WASHINGTON - Army bases in Texas, Colorado, Washington, Kansas and elsewhere will gain thousands of soldiers as the military brings home 50,000 troops from Germany and Korea and reorganizes into a force designed to better fight modern battles.

 

The shifts will mean upheavals for many soldiers and their families in the coming years. But Army officials said Wednesday the effort will mean over the long term that families will move less often.

 

Gen. Richard Cody, the Army's vice chief of staff, said it was the biggest change in the Army since the beginning of World War II. Ray Dubois, a special assistant to the Army secretary, spoke of the "true cornerstone of Army transformation in the 21st century."

 

The army is rebuilding around 43 ground combat brigades, each with between 3,500 and 3,900 troops. The goal is to have the brigades operate far more independently than existing ones, which rely heavily on their larger division structures to function in a war zone.

 

Divisions were set up to do battle with an enemy such as the Soviet Union. The new brigades will function in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

 

The restructuring takes place as the Pentagon withdraws tens thousands of troops from their Cold War homes in Germany and South Korea.

 

Many units from Germany are going to Fort Bliss, Texas, and Fort Riley, Kan. In some case, the troops will go to other bases and change units.

 

The new brigades are built around one of three designs:

 

-light, primarily infantry.

 

-Stryker, built around the Stryker armored vehicle.

 

-heavy, which have tanks and armored infantry carriers.

 

That compares with 13 designs among the 33 old Army brigades, each with between 3,000 and 5,000 soldiers.

 

Some the changes are under way; others will not be completed until 2009.

 

Some troops will go with their unit and change their home base; others will change units but stay at the same base; and some units will rotate to Iraq or Afghanistan, then change their designation and home base when they finish.

 

Under the reorganization:

 

-Fort Bliss will be home to the 1st Armored Division, amounting to four brigades and a division headquarters. A division headquarters will have about 1,000 troops under the Army's new design. The unit is primarily based in Germany.

 

Some other Bliss troops, trained in anti-aircraft weaponry, are set to move to Fort Sill, Okla., under the base closing process now under way.

 

Including these moves, the base will have a net gain of about 18,300 soldiers between 2003 and 2011, according to calculations by the Army.

 

-At Fort Hood, Texas, the 4th Infantry Division will move two brigades, plus its headquarters, to Fort Carson, Colo.

 

The third brigade of the 4th Infantry Division will change shoulder patch and join the 1st Armored Cavalry as its new, fourth brigade. The 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment will move from Carson to Hood. The III Corps headquarters, about 1,000 troops, will stay at Hood.

 

Army spokesman Paul Boyce said Hood will have gained a net 700 soldiers between 2003 and 2011 under the military's current plans.

 

-Fort Lewis, Wash., now home to two brigades, will add a third, and all will become part of the 2nd Infantry Division. The fourth brigade of the division, plus its headquarters, will remain in Korea. The Army is negotiating to move I Corps headquarters, also at Lewis, to Japan. Lewis is expected to grow by 11,300 soldiers by 2011, the Army said.

 

-Fort Riley will be home to most of the 1st Infantry Division, three brigades and the headquarters. Much of that unit has been based in Germany. A brigade of the 1st Armored Division, now at Riley, will move to Fort Bliss. Riley will gain 9,400 soldiers, Boyce said.

 

-Fort Carson, Colo., will be home to the entire 4th Infantry Division, four brigades plus a headquarters. Many of these units are coming from Fort Hood. One brigade, formerly part of the 2nd Infantry Division based in Korea, will come from Iraq. Carson will grow by 8,200 soldiers.

 

-Fort Drum, N.Y., is adding a new brigade to the 10th Mountain Division. Drum will have grown by 6,300 soldiers by 2011, Boyce said.

 

-Fort Knox, Ky., will add a fourth, new brigade from the 1st Infantry.

 

-Fort Bragg, N.C., will add a fourth, new brigade to the 82nd Airborne Division, already stationed there.

 

-Fort Polk, La., will lose the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment to Germany, where it will become the sole ground combat brigade stationed there. A fourth brigade of the 10th Mountain Division is standing up in its place.

 

-Schofield Barracks, Hawaii, will gain about 3,700 troops under the 25th Infantry Division by 2011.

 

-Fort Richardson, Alaska, is adding a brigade under the 25th Infantry Division, which is headquartered in Hawaii.

 

That will leave only three ground combat brigades permanently stationed overseas - one in Korea, one in Germany and one in Italy. The Army will also break up its 5th Corps headquarters in Europe, Cody said.

[Wolverine 10,360]

COBRA,

 

Sorry we just hijacked your thread. Interesting stuff on the reorganization. That will cause some real world disruption for military families and cost us plenty.

 

Despite this I think it is a good thing we are consolidating here and pulling troops out from some locales around the globe.

 

I suspect one of the motivators for the reorg. was the declining number of new volunteers and the strong sentiment not to reinacxt military conscription.

 

Thanks for the inside scoop.

 

PS......I trust the military is considering the security issue of each of the reorganized bases since they would make plum targets for terrorists with dirty nukes or the like.

 

Wolverine

[Tokageko 8]

Smiley,

 

Wolverine said it for me, regarding why I'm glad we went into Iraq.

 

As for the rest of it... There's just nothing to say. Ok, maybe there's too much to say. It's almost like when Bvamp decides to join in these discussions: he brings up too many seperate points in the same "rant" that should each be given more individual attention. I think that's almost happened here. Either way, my brain is on vacation at the moment.

 

Cobra,

 

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the heads up.

[G O B 3,516]

Reorganizing is good. We certainly don't need to keep thousands of troups in Germany. And as for hi-jacking threads, no matter what Wolvie says we are not sorry! Hijacking threads is a tradition here. If no one has hi-jacked one of your threads, we probably just don't love you!

 

 

G O B

[Tokageko 8]

Damn, I thought it was a sign of interest, admiration, and respect that people stayed on topic.

 

I guess no one here loves me...

 

Ok, I couldn't even TYPE that with a straight face.