bookerbass2000 10 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 So a buddy of mine wants me to do some FCG restorations for him. I have done all my Saigas with great success, and I guess he likes my work. All he wants is a basic trigger group move, nothing outside my ability. Is it legal for me (not a gunsmith, just an experienced Saiga addict) to do this in Texas? I tried to steer him to CSS and all the great tutorials there and elsewhere, but he's adamant that I should be the one to do it. Yes he's offered to pay me for it. If it is legal, my intentions (to CMA) are to make sure I have a complete parts list with receipts, a contract stating exactly the work to be done attached to the parts list, signed by both of us and copied numerous times. Our .gov masters don't seem to care about what's legal these days, so I want my 6 covered. I would especially like to hear from the pros on this. P.S. My wife thinks it's about time my hobby starts paying back. Thanks for all the help! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 it is not legal for you to make any money from the conversion. if your just doing it to help him out that's fine, but you cannot make a profit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 If this hadn't been posted this on the forum, then who would have known that you did the conversion? And now you want to create a paper trail to keep your ass covered and still make the statement " our .gov masters don't seem to care about what's legal these days"' Help him convert it as friend, and don't try to profit off it. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 IMO... If you write a contract and take payment, you've stepped over the line, and are operating as a Gunsmith/FFL. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 There has always been a misconception about being a gunsmith and having an FFL. NO you do not have to have an FFL to be a gunsmith or do general gunsmithing work. As long as it remains a hobby and not a business. Yes you may receive money for services rendered from you hobby. It is the grey line between where does the hobby end and the business begins which is the topic of debate and there is no definitive answer, with regards to how many guns you work on a year. It is more clear with regards to state/federal tax law reportable income, hobby vs business. Money, it is always about money with the government and paying the required revenue, occupational licenses, etc., etc. Liability, yes that question always arises, doesn't matter if you are building firearms or mowing the neighbors lawn. An FFL is nothing more than paying the government for the license to conduct business. The key word here is business, when conducting Firearms Repair, etc. as a BUSINESS an FFL is required. Jack (07 FFL) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ErgonomicZero 0 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) Set up a non-profit corporation (you can do this FREE; go to the irs website and fill out the forms) and then take donations. Edited November 6, 2011 by ErgonomicZero Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Eagle 839 Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 Doing one-offs isn't illegal. If you were doing this as a primary source of income, then you'd be in deep do-do. Then again......did you actually do it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Wow. Technically, if he brings his gun over to you, leaves it behind, you convert it, he pays you money and you give it back, then yes, it was illegal. You do in fact need an FFL to conduct business as a Gunsmith. However, he can come over and you can "help him" do a conversion, and he throws you a tip for your kindness, who's to say? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Wow. Technically, if he brings his gun over to you, leaves it behind, you convert it, he pays you money and you give it back, then yes, it was illegal. You do in fact need an FFL to conduct business as a Gunsmith. However, he can come over and you can "help him" do a conversion, and he throws you a tip for your kindness, who's to say? All due respect this is incorrect. General gunsmithing may be performed as a hobby. This is not my opinion, this is a fact which I have discussed with ATF. There is absolutely nothing wrong or illegal about working on an individuals firearm and it may remain in possession. If what you say was the case, then you would not even be able to borrow someones firearms and keep it in your possession. Again the key word is business. When conducted as a business, an FFL is required. Same as building firearms and selling them. You are allowed to build and sell X amount of firearms a year without an FFL, but ATF has not defined how many that is before it is considered a business and then an FFL is required. This was in a sit down discussion I had with the regional supervisor of the ATF when I was down in West Palm Beach, Florida, about 2 or 3 years ago. I was curious because a friend had asked me about this and I did not know the current answer. They (ATF Agents) came to our shop (Millennium Custom) doing an investigation on an individual about possible straw sales and I discussed this with them in detail. The grey area is when does it become a business and you have reportable income. There is a difference between conducting business of a gunsmith and conducting gunsmithing AS A BUSINESS. Conducting as a business requires an FFL. Just because you receive payment for a service rendered does not, by definition make it a business. You can legally receive payments from a hobby. Here is a link which may or may not help you to determine if what you are doing is considered a business: http://findarticles....84/ai_18325000/ If I were reading these comments, I would not take any of it as fact and would want to verify it personally. Make the call to the local ATF Office and verify it yourself. This would be the logical action to take if you are in doubt about working on someone else firearm. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Thanks for the posts guys! Jetmech-Good point. JT: I appreciate your getting into the business vs. hobby thing. I'm a freelance musician by trade, and I know full well the grey are between "reputable income" vs. hobby income. You should see my itemized deductions (all checked out with a CPA of course)! I believe I came up with a solution, even though I harbor a secret yen to learn more about gun smithing and get into more detailed and refined work. The truth is, it's still a hobby for me, and it will probably always be a hobby for me. So, I bought a Saiga .223 and invited my friend over so we can restore our rifles together, as friends with no payment (except maybe a 6 pack)! Mrs. Hogslayer doesn't exactly see the logic behind my solution, but it seemed the appropriate thing to do in my situation! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 It is a great hobby! I know some of the top bolt gun rifle builders who do it as a hobby after they retired and no longer have an FFL. You still need to be aware of some of the laws, mainly with regards to shipping of firearms and FFL requirements if you take it to the next step. Also, I don't know if you have to abide by city, county, state, directives with regards to storage of firearms if it is done as a hobby. It is required to comply with these regulations when you are an FFL holder. Later, Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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