Red Tails

[David Mark 2,452]

This looks excellent. The air war in Europe in WW2 has always fascinated me.

I will definately go to see this movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpA6TC0T_Lw

[thebuns1 4,323]

i wanna see it too. i love the war planes of that era.

[RobRez 1,895]

A familiar face or two from "The Tuskeegee Airmen"?? Looks really well done, visually, from the trailer.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Looks like a good movie, and more than a couple well known actors in it. I bet its pretty good. Ill deff see it

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Looks overly hyped and overly hokey. Judging from commercials I've seen they defeated the Reich single handedly, shot down 10,000 German aircraft, and kept Hitler pinned in his bunker with no help.

 

Another example of "History channel" style historical revisionism I think...

[DrThunder88 912]

Could be good. It's definitely a cool subject! I'd pay the exorbitant movie theater ticket prices just to watch WWII planes dogfight for an hour and a half on the big screen. I just hope it's not another Pearl Harbor. If the filmmakers stick to the good stuff and not try to foist a lot of unnecessary melodrama into it, it could be an instant classic.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Looks overly hyped and overly hokey. Judging from commercials I've seen they defeated the Reich single handedly, shot down 10,000 German aircraft, and kept Hitler pinned in his bunker with no help.

 

Another example of "History channel" style historical revisionism I think...

 

Its just entertainment, anyone who actually thinks any movie that comes out in the box office is anything close to historically accurate....well do i really have to say. I love historical documentaries, but I also love good old entertainment. You just cant hardly mix the two. Some people understand it, some dont.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Looks pretty good IMO. You have to admit though, those Bomber crews had some balls compared to the Fighter escort guys.

[RobRez 1,895]

Looks pretty good IMO. You have to admit though, those Bomber crews had some balls compared to the Fighter escort guys.

Oh, hell yes! Staying on a fixed course, without taking evasive action! Just standing in a fire fight with airplanes is all! Crap! My Grandfather flew a Dauntless Dive bomber and once mentioned how much better he felt than if he was in a Big Bomber!

[Bigsteel 14]

Anyone else see the southpark episode where George Lucas and Steven Spielberg remake everything with 3d,HD,and a shittier story...

 

Well they couldn't have been more right,I LOVED the original tuskeegee airmen and I hope they didn't ruin this like they did Indiana jones

[theorangeplanet 968]

As long as it doesn't have spinning 36,000 degree Michael Bay twists and turns I can probably dig it.

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

I am a "109" fanatic so will see it on the first day fur sure -- even if only to see em blown out of the sky...

IMHO the BF-109 was one of the ultimate fighters of all time. It was the ONLY fighter used by the greatest ace of all time: Erich Hartmann with 352 confirmed kills. An achievement that will never be exceeded.

[Donkeyshins 87]

I am a "109" fanatic so will see it on the first day fur sure -- even if only to see em blown out of the sky...

IMHO the BF-109 was one of the ultimate fighters of all time. It was the ONLY fighter used by the greatest ace of all time: Erich Hartmann with 352 confirmed kills. An achievement that will never be exceeded.

 

BF-109E was a great plane, but I prefer the FW-190 (if we're talking Kraut planes).

[David Mark 2,452]

While I will agree that the BF-109 and the FW-190 were both excellent fighters, the P-51 was superior as far as piston drive fighters go. Had the Germans integrated the ME-262 earlier in the war we may have seen a different outcome.

 

Imagine the shock to our aircrews when the the first ME-262's tore through their formations.

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

While I will agree that the BF-109 and the FW-190 were both excellent fighters, the P-51 was superior as far as piston drive fighters go. Had the Germans integrated the ME-262 earlier in the war we may have seen a different outcome.

 

Imagine the shock to our aircrews when the the first ME-262's tore through their formations.

 

I agree with you -- the 109 was designed in 1936, the P-51 in the early 40's. But in the right hands the 109 could still do damage. Hartmann shot down 7 P-51's in 2 engagements in 1945. No other aircraft in history can claim as many kills as the 109, so hands down it was the most successful fighter aircraft in the history (or future) or aerial warfare. I have no leanings towards the politics/ideology, just love the plane...

Edited January 12, 2012 by Odd Man Out

[David Mark 2,452]

I'm with you on the 109. To this day it is one of the sleekest and most beautiful aircraft ever built.

 

And while I acknowledge that Hartmann's record will probably never be topped, a great percentage of those kills were against vastly inferior opponents in both equipment and skill.

[Bigsteel 14]

While the BF-109 was an amazing aircraft for it's time it was totally inferior to the mustang. In the end the p-51d came out quite a bit later than the 109,atleast in wartime standards.

 

Although this guy would take a P-47 over all of them,lol

[DrThunder88 912]

Hartmann's achievement will likely never be exceeded because no one can put up as many planes as the Red Army did and because modern bombers can carry enough payload to be as effective as an entire stream of WWII heavies. Of course, the amount of materiel Hartmann shot from the sky is astonishing, but it's not unprecedented given the huge scale of the war in the Eastern European theater.

[David Mark 2,452]

+1 to the P-47. That fucker could take a licking and keep on ticking.

[Scott Kenny 144]

Put me down for a Fw190 D-9 if I get to drive a Kraut-burner. But I want US fuel. 145 octane fuel (not that crappy german 87 octane stuff) plus water injection and nitrous injection?!? Holy sweet mother of god, hang on!

 

And I'm torn between the F4U Corsair and the P51 for American iron.

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

Bf-109F2, Me-163b1, Go-229, TA-154, Do-335 and finally the HS-129 with the 75mm underbelly AT gun are the planes I would love to fly.

 

The claim that undercuts Hartmann's achievements just don't hold water -- His combat career started in 1943 and throughout, the luftwaffe was always fighting outnumbered. The Red Air Force did fly some lend lease aircraft (P-40's, P-39 Aircobras and Spitfires) but also had some very capable designs produced by the Lagg and Yakolev design bureaus. Also there was probably no more difficult aircraft to bring down in the entire war than the IL-2 Stormovik flying tank. German pilots would expend their total load on a single plane without effect. Downing those was Hartmann's specialty -- The only way to do it was to either hit the small (6x18 inches) area that held the flares that was directly in front of the rear gunners seat or by damaging the small radiator under the front of the plane.

 

Hartmann never lost a wingman and was never shot down -- even though he flew a distinctively painted plane and had a 20,000 rouble price put on his head by the Russians. Interesting to note that the only time he disobeyed an order was when he was told to leave his unit and fly to the west and surrender to the western allies. He chose to stay with his unit and the whole unit ended up surrendering to the Americans. We promptly turned Hartmann over to the Russian who kept him in a Gulag for the next ten years. Hartmann was released in 1955 and died in 1992.

[Jpanzer 1,265]

BF-109K with the nitrous boost thank you. That and the 30mm cannon in the nose was all that was needed....

[Black3 16]

Yeah, and all those great airplanes won the war for the Germans, huh? From the G on the Me-109 was an overstressed, overloaded pig. Some of the "immortals" like Galland, Barr, Hartmann could get pretty much custom aircraft, the crap that the cannon fodder got was another matter and with six hours of flight training before they were thrown against the P-51s, they had only the opportunity to die bravely. Frankly, I can't separate the propaganda from the reality on the Eastern Front. The Soviets threw up some really shitty aircraft and some very poorly trained pilots and didn't mind the losses, so lots of Luftwaffe pilots ran up some impressive scores. That said, in the early days, American pilots and aircraft were fish in a barrel, but on balance, I think one must somewhat discount Eastern Front scores.

 

I think the late model Fw-109s and the Ds and Ta s were as good as or better than the P-51 and the late Spitfires, but the pilots were vastly inferior. Hartmann, Barkhorn and all the other "Immortals" should have been returned to Germany after twenty or thirty missions, no matter what they thought, and made into instructors, then maybe the first mission for a German pilot from early '44 on wouldn't have been a suicide mission. But, I'm glad the arrogant bastards didn't figure that out.

[Scott Kenny 144]

Well, the Germans kept trying for propaganda victories. That's why they kept their high-scoring aces in the field, instead of rotating them back home to train the next batch of pilots like the Americans did.

 

If you focus on beating your opponent psychologically, the big dumb American is going to smack you upside the head. You have to beat your opponent both tactically and psychologically.

[RobRez 1,895]

Bf-109F2, Me-163b1, Go-229, TA-154, Do-335 and finally the HS-129 with the 75mm underbelly AT gun are the planes I would love to fly.

 

The claim that undercuts Hartmann's achievements just don't hold water -- His combat career started in 1943 and throughout, the luftwaffe was always fighting outnumbered. The Red Air Force did fly some lend lease aircraft (P-40's, P-39 Aircobras and Spitfires) but also had some very capable designs produced by the Lagg and Yakolev design bureaus. Also there was probably no more difficult aircraft to bring down in the entire war than the IL-2 Stormovik flying tank. German pilots would expend their total load on a single plane without effect. Downing those was Hartmann's specialty -- The only way to do it was to either hit the small (6x18 inches) area that held the flares that was directly in front of the rear gunners seat or by damaging the small radiator under the front of the plane.

 

Hartmann never lost a wingman and was never shot down -- even though he flew a distinctively painted plane and had a 20,000 rouble price put on his head by the Russians. Interesting to note that the only time he disobeyed an order was when he was told to leave his unit and fly to the west and surrender to the western allies. He chose to stay with his unit and the whole unit ended up surrendering to the Americans. We promptly turned Hartmann over to the Russian who kept him in a Gulag for the next ten years. Hartmann was released in 1955 and died in 1992.

Upon reading his history it seems he WAS shot down SEVERAL times, was even once captured and managed to escape.

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

Actually there was a much simpler reason why the Germans never rotated their pilots -- nowhere to rotate them to. When Germany initiated WW2 the German pilot was engaged in aerial combat constantly without break from 1939 to 1945 or until death or injury claimed them. Never had the luxury of stepping back from the carnage.

 

Black 3: You make some good points, the later 109's were inferior a/c compared to what they were going against -- especially the G's with the underwing gondolas! It sure speaks volumes for the courage of the pilots who flew them -- think about attacking a 1000 B-17's bomber wave each with 13 .50 caliber machine guns and escorted by P-51's and 47's! Incredible. Know this though: I am not cheering on the nazi cause my patriotic brother, my love for the a/c and admiration for the pilots has nothing to do with politics. Finally, I had never read of any accounts of any of the aces having any special "custom aircraft" available to them. Please enlighten me of your sources. I would be fascinated to learn of them.

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

Upon reading his history it seems he WAS shot down SEVERAL times, was even once captured and managed to escape.

 

Nope. Read closer. He actually "shot" himself down 9 different times! His method was to get so close to the other a/c that it would fill up the windshield of his. Take a look at the view that the 109 pilot had out the front. VERY small. He did this so that every round counted. Many a/c when subjected to this would explode catastrophically. The debris and explosion would sometimes damage Hartmann's plane to such an extent that he would either have to bail out of make a forced landing. So, Hartmann was never shot down.

 

Yup, he was captured after one of these episodes -- he feigned an injury and jumped off the back of the truck when they were not looking and EandE'ed back to his own forces.

[RobRez 1,895]

From what I read, He was shot down on 5, Nov. 1942 after his first kill and punished for 3 days for violating the rules of a wingmam. Also both Hartmann AND Krupinski were Shot down several times in the battle of Kuban. The 5th time he was downed he was rammed by a LaGG-3 on 25, May,1943 and finally he was downed Twice on 20, Aug., 1943. They Never mention Him shooting Himself down, and I was not there to confirm this. So, it SEEMS that he was in fact shot down.

I could be reading his biography wrong, but I thought "shot down" was "Shot down" by enemy fire. Maybe it means something else.

[Jpanzer 1,265]

I get better graphics on my PC flying missions in IL2 Forgotten Battles than what you see in the "Red Tails" clip...!

[Black3 16]

@Odd Man Out - Working from memory, all my a/c reference books are packed up; since my glasses became strong bifocals, my modelling days ended. I think I read that highly decorated or high-ranking pilots were often able to request planes specifically in a two volumn, and damned expensive, German published book on the aircraft of the German Aces, can't remember the title. In any event, everybody up and down the line from the factory to the front would know who the plane was for. Not all did, and maybe not all could, but some could and did specifically order planes as their personal a/c. And certainly, a staffel or gruppe commander's personal a/c, especially one with a Knight's Cross and all the other accoutrement of a high-scorer, would get the best attention from the ground and repair crews. I got on a jag of researching and building personal aircraft of the high-scorers like Hartman, Barkhorn, Barr, Galland, and lots of others in 1/72nf scale fifteen years or so ago. I ultimately did about the top 25 matched to a picture of the aircraft that ace was flying at a particular date; fun project..

Edited January 13, 2012 by Black3