Scott Kenny 144 Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 For those that don't know, a LeMat is a black-powder revolver with a 20gauge shotgun bore as the axle of the cylinder. I'd like to make a modern version that I don't have to front-load. Now, I get that a Taurus Judge avoids the AOW/SBS definition by having a rifled barrel. The LeMat has two separate barrels, and I'd like to avoid the Judge's problem with rifling opening a hole in the center of the pattern. But that means a smoothbore barrel. Are all smoothbore barrels under 18" SBS, even if the receiver never had a buttstock? What is the Mossberg "Just in Case" considered? An AOW, or is it something else? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 The judge gets by because it is labled as a pistol caliber and it has rifling. From a legal standpoint, the fact that you can shove shotshells in there is a happy coincidence. If it were labeled in a shotgun gauge it would not be legal. 20 gauge won't work unless it is 18" long or an AOW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 They made a LeMat carbine. An 18" 12 ga barrel with a 9 shot .45 long colt cylinder would be the tits! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 For those that don't know, a LeMat is a black-powder revolver with a 20gauge shotgun bore as the axle of the cylinder. I'd like to make a modern version that I don't have to front-load. Now, I get that a Taurus Judge avoids the AOW/SBS definition by having a rifled barrel. The LeMat has two separate barrels, and I'd like to avoid the Judge's problem with rifling opening a hole in the center of the pattern. But that means a smoothbore barrel. Are all smoothbore barrels under 18" SBS, even if the receiver never had a buttstock? What is the Mossberg "Just in Case" considered? An AOW, or is it something else? The Mossberg "Just in Case" is a Title 1 "firearm," not a "shotgun," because it does not possess a buttstock, and hence is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, but the barrel is 18" or greater and the OAL is 26" or greater so it is not a Title II firearm. If either of those measurements was a bit lower, it would be an AOW. If you built a modern-day LeMat revolver that used a 20-gauge fixed cartridge in a barrel with a smooth bore, the result would be an AOW. It's possible you might be able to affix a buttstock as well, as short-barreled combo guns can also fall under the AOW definition - an ATF opinion letter would probably be helpful there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted March 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 They made a LeMat carbine. An 18" 12 ga barrel with a 9 shot .45 long colt cylinder would be the tits! Gives a whole new spin to the 'buntline special' idea, doesn't it? And it might be more than a 9-shot cylinder, since the cylinder would rotate around the shotgun barrel! hrm... that'd make for a roughly 16" barrel for the pistol cartridges... Might be able to chamber the beast for .454 Casull, since you'd be talking about a cylinder at least 2.5" in diameter anyway. I'm just wondering if a break-top design could survive the force of a 20gauge. Yes, 12gauge would be more impressive, but last thing I want to have is a gun prone to kabooms because of poor design. Besides, I think a 12gauge might be a little hard on the wrist, if you shot it as a pistol. Once I get the laptop fixed, time to write a letter to ATF, I guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 There are a metric shit load of break top 12ga singles around, this is a do-able project! the damn thing will be HEAVY, but FUN! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 Looks this is not the 1st time this thought has come up in other places: 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) The judge gets by because it is labled as a pistol caliber and it has rifling. From a legal standpoint, the fact that you can shove shotshells in there is a happy coincidence. If it were labeled in a shotgun gauge it would not be legal. 20 gauge won't work unless it is 18" long or an AOW. You an attorney? Although I may be wrong, I believe what you've conveyed is incorrect. I've never heard or read where the caliber of a firearm determines its legal status as either a handgun or a long gun. My personal experience is derived from having a .308 Win / .338 FED bolt action "pistol" built from the ground up. Reference the photo below: I was able to have this done legally, due to the Savage Arms action being 'non-designated' from the factory. Once the action arrived to my FFL Dealer, I was required to register it either as a handgun or a long gun. Once registered as such, the action's serial number is to forever remain so (such is my understanding anyway). If Scott Kenny (this thread's OP) is fabricating a firearm "from scratch", i.e., not using pre-existing firearm component parts with serial numbers, then it's my understanding he can fabricate either a handgun or long gun in whatever caliber fancies him, as long as the characteristics of the firearm fall within the legal requirements designating either a handgun or long gun. Anyway, my point is (and I welcome anyone to correct me because I'm not professing to be the subject matter expert about this) that the caliber of the firearm has no bearing. Hell, if someone wanted to fabricate a smooth bore handgun that fires a friggen .50 BMG cartridge, more power to them. Edited March 21, 2012 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 The issue with 20 gauge is that it's over 1/2 inch bore, so it's a DD unless you get the ATF to agree that it is a "sporting weapon". Good luck with that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 The judge gets by because it is labled as a pistol caliber and it has rifling. From a legal standpoint, the fact that you can shove shotshells in there is a happy coincidence. If it were labeled in a shotgun gauge it would not be legal. 20 gauge won't work unless it is 18" long or an AOW. You an attorney? Although I may be wrong, I believe what you've conveyed is incorrect. I've never heard or read where the caliber of a firearm determines its legal status as either a handgun or a long gun. My personal experience is derived from having a .308 Win / .338 FED bolt action "pistol" built from the ground up. Reference the photo below: I was able to have this done legally, due to the Savage Arms action being 'non-designated' from the factory. Once the action arrived to my FFL Dealer, I was required to register it either as a handgun or a long gun. Once registered as such, the action's serial number is to forever remain so (such is my understanding anyway). If Scott Kenny (this thread's OP) is fabricating a firearm "from scratch", i.e., not using pre-existing firearm component parts with serial numbers, then it's my understanding he can fabricate either a handgun or long gun in whatever caliber fancies him, as long as the characteristics of the firearm fall within the legal requirements designating either a handgun or long gun. Anyway, my point is (and I welcome anyone to correct me because I'm not professing to be the subject matter expert about this) that the caliber of the firearm has no bearing. Hell, if someone wanted to fabricate a smooth bore handgun that fires a friggen .50 BMG cartridge, more power to them. You are somewhat mistaken - if it has a smooth bore, it CANNOT be classified as a handgun or rifle. Smoothbore pistols are specifically defined as AOWs. If you install a smoothbore barrel in your 9mm handgun so it'll work better with those CCI shotshells, you've manufactured an AOW. The caliber has some bearing, in that if it's over .50 the ATF might decide it's a DD. Other than that, "rifle" or "pistol" caliber isn't really relevant. Also, ATF measures handgun bore diameter differently than they measure rifle bore diameter - .50 BMG actually throws a .51 caliber bullet, which is okay for rifles, not for handguns (measuring land to land vs. groove to groove in the bore). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 The issue with 20 gauge is that it's over 1/2 inch bore, so it's a DD unless you get the ATF to agree that it is a "sporting weapon". Good luck with that. PLEASE point us to the section/title/code (etc.) of the National Firearms Act (NFA) and/or ATF Rule (etc.) that addresses what you've just written. The diameter of a firearm's barrel or bore doesn't mean SQUAT that I am aware of. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) You are somewhat mistaken - if it has a smooth bore, it CANNOT be classified as a handgun or rifle. Smoothbore pistols are specifically defined as AOWs. If you install a smoothbore barrel in your 9mm handgun so it'll work better with those CCI shotshells, you've manufactured an AOW. The caliber has some bearing, in that if it's over .50 the ATF might decide it's a DD. Other than that, "rifle" or "pistol" caliber isn't really relevant. Also, ATF measures handgun bore diameter differently than they measure rifle bore diameter - .50 BMG actually throws a .51 caliber bullet, which is okay for rifles, not for handguns (measuring land to land vs. groove to groove in the bore). Thank you Shandlanos! I'll take you at your word. So. . . per usual, it's not the NFA but the friggen ATF that plagues Americans with nefarious problems. . . . . Edited March 21, 2012 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Nope. Not a lawyer. I was thinking about how 12gauge shotguns are allowed to throw a .67 caliber slug, because they are labled as 12 gauge (and meet ANSI Specs for those shells), and not .67 caliber, even if they have rifled barrels. A number of large bore weapons that in truth can only be considered rifles are legal under this basis alone without need for specific DD waivers. The USAS 12 and streetsweeper were killed by name in the act, but they threatened that they could have killed them as weapons greater than .50 even if they had not been named. Old threads here point to that hysteria, and as far as I know that has never been put to the test one way or another. The way things look to me, the door is still open to use that angle if they wish, but they don't have the political backing, and that would really make most shotguns illegal. So it is impractical to use that angle and enforce it consistently. It looks like present political tides are in our favor, and doubtless there would be strong public opposition. I defer to superior knowledge citing cases and statutes. I am by no means an expert here. Edited March 21, 2012 by GunFun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 Looks this is not the 1st time this thought has come up in other places: The center pic is a LeMatt carbine. "Dear Santa..." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 The issue with 20 gauge is that it's over 1/2 inch bore, so it's a DD unless you get the ATF to agree that it is a "sporting weapon". Good luck with that. PLEASE point us to the section/title/code (etc.) of the National Firearms Act (NFA) and/or ATF Rule (etc.) that addresses what you've just written. The diameter of a firearm's barrel or bore doesn't mean SQUAT that I am aware of. http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-94-1.pdf 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 http://www.atf.gov/r...ruling-94-1.pdf You rock bro! Thank you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted March 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 My, that is pretty. GOB, you were not kidding! A modern-day version would look a little different, since it'd have to have a top-strap for lockup... Wonder if you could have the swingout around the pistol-caliber barrel? I guess I need to mess around with some pieces of pipe, see if I can lay out a modern version mechanically. I mean, Taurus is selling "Circuit Judge" carbines, and the Lemat-style lets you use a bigger shotgun shell... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 What makes the LeMatt so strong is that the shotgun barrel is the axle for the revolver cylinder. I would love to see one made that cammed the cylinder into the barrel like a Nagant. Chamber one in .308 over 3" 12ga. and another in .223 over .410! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted March 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 I think you'd lose a lot of oomph with the cylinder gap, though. At least with rifle calibers. What was it, New England Firearms 'pardner' that was the break-action single-shot? Time to go poke around and see what's up. I live in Boise, so there are a couple (small) firearms manufacturers in the area, and CCI is up in Lewiston. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Been thinking about how to overcome the size of the center shotgun barrel with a cylinder revolving around it. With these you could have a double barrel or even a drilling, but it's not a "revolver." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 The Nagant does not have a cylinder gap. With todays metallurgy it is totally unnecessary for a revolver to have a gap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted March 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Coolness, now just need to see if the lockwork can be strong enough to handle, say, .454 Casull or .500S&W more than an inch above the boreline of a Pardner when you've got a big notch cut out of the bottom of the frame for the revolver cylinder... ===================== Though this does lead to the other important question: Is the purchase procedure for an AOW the same as for a SBS, SBR, or Machine Gun? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Coolness, now just need to see if the lockwork can be strong enough to handle, say, .454 Casull or .500S&W more than an inch above the boreline of a Pardner when you've got a big notch cut out of the bottom of the frame for the revolver cylinder... ===================== Though this does lead to the other important question: Is the purchase procedure for an AOW the same as for a SBS, SBR, or Machine Gun? Same process as SBS/SBR/etc., but the transfer tax is only $5. There is still a $200 tax if you manufacture it on a Form 1. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 30, 2012 Report Share Posted March 30, 2012 If you want a 20 ga shotgun in a pistol without it being considered a title II weapon, make the shotgun barrel a muzzle loader. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 If you want a 20 ga shotgun in a pistol without it being considered a title II weapon, make the shotgun barrel a muzzle loader. Taurus came out with a 28 ga. Judge awhile back. Word was they got BATF exemption, but it has never went into production. If that is so, wonder why they let that R&D go to waste? Not to mention the BATF approval. http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-taurus-raging-judge-28-gauge-revolver/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 The judge gets by because it is labled as a pistol caliber and it has rifling. From a legal standpoint, the fact that you can shove shotshells in there is a happy coincidence. If it were labeled in a shotgun gauge it would not be legal. 20 gauge won't work unless it is 18" long or an AOW. You an attorney? Although I may be wrong, I believe what you've conveyed is incorrect. I've never heard or read where the caliber of a firearm determines its legal status as either a handgun or a long gun. My personal experience is derived from having a .308 Win / .338 FED bolt action "pistol" built from the ground up. Reference the photo below: I was able to have this done legally, due to the Savage Arms action being 'non-designated' from the factory. Once the action arrived to my FFL Dealer, I was required to register it either as a handgun or a long gun. Once registered as such, the action's serial number is to forever remain so (such is my understanding anyway). If Scott Kenny (this thread's OP) is fabricating a firearm "from scratch", i.e., not using pre-existing firearm component parts with serial numbers, then it's my understanding he can fabricate either a handgun or long gun in whatever caliber fancies him, as long as the characteristics of the firearm fall within the legal requirements designating either a handgun or long gun. Anyway, my point is (and I welcome anyone to correct me because I'm not professing to be the subject matter expert about this) that the caliber of the firearm has no bearing. Hell, if someone wanted to fabricate a smooth bore handgun that fires a friggen .50 BMG cartridge, more power to them. You are somewhat mistaken - if it has a smooth bore, it CANNOT be classified as a handgun or rifle. Smoothbore pistols are specifically defined as AOWs. If you install a smoothbore barrel in your 9mm handgun so it'll work better with those CCI shotshells, you've manufactured an AOW. The caliber has some bearing, in that if it's over .50 the ATF might decide it's a DD. Other than that, "rifle" or "pistol" caliber isn't really relevant. Also, ATF measures handgun bore diameter differently than they measure rifle bore diameter - .50 BMG actually throws a .51 caliber bullet, which is okay for rifles, not for handguns (measuring land to land vs. groove to groove in the bore). Really? Someone should have told John Linebaugh. http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=690&caliber=.50&caliberid=31&header=.50%20Caliber%20Reloading%20Data Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted April 3, 2012 Report Share Posted April 3, 2012 Also, ATF measures handgun bore diameter differently than they measure rifle bore diameter - .50 BMG actually throws a .51 caliber bullet, which is okay for rifles, not for handguns (measuring land to land vs. groove to groove in the bore). Really? Someone should have told John Linebaugh. http://www.loaddata....eloading%20Data Really. Either ATF didn't care on that one and never bothered to pursue it, or it was designated a sporting cartridge. Being over .50 does not automatically mean it's a DD - that's up to the AG. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Also, ATF measures handgun bore diameter differently than they measure rifle bore diameter - .50 BMG actually throws a .51 caliber bullet, which is okay for rifles, not for handguns (measuring land to land vs. groove to groove in the bore). Really? Someone should have told John Linebaugh. http://www.loaddata....eloading%20Data Really. Either ATF didn't care on that one and never bothered to pursue it, or it was designated a sporting cartridge. Being over .50 does not automatically mean it's a DD - that's up to the AG. A search of ATF rulings turns up nothing in this regard. It does however, mostly seem to lead to the below article, whenever someone brings up the "little known ruling. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_51/ai_n14694946/ I've got to take Gary's tack here, what ruling? I've come across a lot of BS published by gun writers, that article is not a reference. Bore diameter is defined as the inside diameter of a shotgun bore, or the diameter of a rifled bore, before the rifling is cut. ATF references bore diameter many times with language such as "all guns", using no distinction between rifle and pistol. Prototype .50 BMG pistols have been made. Yes, they can be fired without ripping an arm off. This manufacturer was urged not to go into production, because doing so would reclassify all milsurp .50BMG ammo as handgun AP, illegal to sell, manufacture to sell, and illegal to possess in many states, including here in Florida. Likely the same would apply to CNC lathe turned solids. Nothing about Title II designation came up. http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/2671/50bmghandgun21vr.jpg Now, back to that non authoritative article. IMI used conventional rifling in their prototype pistols, but went with polygonal rifling in their production .50 Desert Eagles. including the .50 DE the ATF tested. The new rifling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling allowed the .50 gauge to drop thru the barrel bore, thus the reduction in bore size was done to get the pistol approved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted April 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 If you want a 20 ga shotgun in a pistol without it being considered a title II weapon, make the shotgun barrel a muzzle loader. Defeats the purpose of the question. I can buy a replica LeMat for $800 or so. I'd like to see if it would be commercially viable for a company to make a carbine version and then the AOW version. They're both biiiiiig 'hawglegs', but the carbine would be good to test the waters with. The AOW version would probably have a 8" barrel or so, with a ~5.5 to 6" rifled barrel for the pistol caliber. The Cabine would need a 16.5" rifled barrel, which would make for a ~19" smoothbore barrel. Talk about a 'Buntline Special'! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62 Posted April 7, 2012 Report Share Posted April 7, 2012 If you want a 20 ga shotgun in a pistol without it being considered a title II weapon, make the shotgun barrel a muzzle loader. Taurus came out with a 28 ga. Judge awhile back. Word was they got BATF exemption, but it has never went into production. If that is so, wonder why they let that R&D go to waste? Not to mention the BATF approval. http://www.gunsameri...gauge-revolver/ I heard all they got was approval to import the sample at SHOT. A search of ATF rulings turns up nothing in this regard. It does however, mostly seem to lead to the below article, whenever someone brings up the "little known ruling. ATF does a lot of their stuff through letters. Which are effectively secret. And every so often the ATF says, "Oh, our bad, that's really a machine gun. Please turn them all in to be destroyed." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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