Build an SBS with a Trust?

[romad7 75]

I have been doing a lot of research on having an NFA Trust and I am stuck on one point.

 

I am in the process of building an SBS S12 and I know in order to complete the SBS I need a Form 1, no problem.

 

I also have created a trust for my S12 with Willmaker. My understanding is that to transfer an NFA item to a Trust, I would need to complete a Form 4.

 

So, the question is: Do I need to complete both a Form 1 (to manufacture) and a Form 4 (to transfer to the Trust)? Or can the SBS be built and registered to the Trust with the Form 1 only?

 

I have only seen posts that talk about buying an NFA item with a Trust but nothing about building one with a Trust.

[1mile50 102]

You, the maker, send in a Form 1 in duplicate, an ATF Form 5330.20, a $200 check, and a copy of your trust. One day, don't hold your breath, you will receive one of your Form 1s with the Tax Stamp affixed. Mine is due any day. :-)

[armalite_ar50 86]

+1 on what onemile50 said.

 

It will stay on a F1 until you sell it then it will go to a F4 to the other buyer.

 

I have two forms out right now a F4 on a can and a F1 on a RV-85 to DD it.

both are on the trust like the rest of my NFA stuff.

 

DO NOT send the original trust just a copy.

[romad7 75]

That's what I was thinking, thanks for the confirmation.

 

Not looking forward to the wait but there is a good deal of work to be done and it will be totally complete up to cutting the barrel so at least I can have fun with it in the mean time.

 

You, the maker, send in a Form 1 in duplicate, an ATF Form 5330.20, a $200 check, and a copy of your trust. One day, don't hold your breath, you will receive one of your Form 1s with the Tax Stamp affixed. Mine is due any day. :-)

 

What kind of ammo will you be using to make it a DD? I have seen the 12 gauge adapters but not anti personnel/material 26.5mm ammo.

Edited April 11, 2012 by romad7

[armalite_ar50 86]

See this thread here.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/76436-10-slugs/

 

The last post I have a bunch of pix and a vid of the 26.5 mm

 

Along with pix of the DD stuff for making it back into a rocket launcher.

I'm a member of grogs 40mm 37mm and 26.5mm boards and there are a alot of us working up loads for the 26.5 mm and a bunch that slammed a F1 on them to make them back to what they should be.

 

It really was a no brainer.

300 for the launcher 200 for the stamp and about 800.00 for the reloading stuff.

 

So for 1100.00 I ended up with a DD

Friend has a 20mm lathi and he paid alot for it and it costs us 17 bux a round to shoot and those are his reloads.

 

I'm also into model rockets and roll my own engines so again it was a no brainer for this thing.

 

As long as I stay 1/4 Oz and under on the explosives it's good to go.

I did the paperwork so I didn't have to worry about what I was launching out of it.

 

I pretty much have a single shot 4 bore shotty, now that was built to launch rockets.

The 26.5 mm is .5 mm short of a 4 bore shot gun.

 

Hope your paperwork goes through fast

 

Stamp collecting is fun!

[romad7 75]

That does sound interesting...

 

I have my eye on the ST9 here http://www.americanspecialtyammo.com/37mm_Launchers.html

 

I would like to mount that on my S12 just for fun.

[armalite_ar50 86]

I had a cobrey 37mm launcher in the late 90's and sold it.

 

You are right the RV-85 is really interesting and fun.

 

Since it's point of aim and not indirect fire like the 37mm and 40mm.

 

Not to mention the rocket blast acts almost like a tracer.

 

Just keep in mind you can't launch ANYTHING out of one without BATFE approval unless it's smoke or flares. And that includes the 37mm indirect fire launchers.

The 40mm is a DD just by BATFE ruling.

[JoshAston 39]

You, the maker, send in a Form 1 in duplicate, an ATF Form 5330.20, a $200 check, and a copy of your trust. One day, don't hold your breath, you will receive one of your Form 1s with the Tax Stamp affixed. Mine is due any day. :-)

 

Just for clarification, you are not the maker. Your trust is. Your trust files the Form 1. You put your trust's name in Block 3b of the Form 1. You will also need to have your trust's full name, city, and state engraved on the receiver or barrel. So keep your trust name short. If you made it in Willmaker you can export it to Word and change the name, take out "revocable living" at a minimum.

[ramlake 98]

+1 on what onemile50 said.

 

It will stay on a F1 until you sell it then it will go to a F4 to the other buyer.

 

I have two forms out right now a F4 on a can and a F1 on a RV-85 to DD it.

both are on the trust like the rest of my NFA stuff.

 

DO NOT send the original trust just a copy.

 

A signed and notorized copy

 

 

You, the maker, send in a Form 1 in duplicate, an ATF Form 5330.20, a $200 check, and a copy of your trust. One day, don't hold your breath, you will receive one of your Form 1s with the Tax Stamp affixed. Mine is due any day. :-)

 

Just for clarification, you are not the maker. Your trust is. Your trust files the Form 1. You put your trust's name in Block 3b of the Form 1. You will also need to have your trust's full name, city, and state engraved on the receiver or barrel. So keep your trust name short. If you made it in Willmaker you can export it to Word and change the name, take out "revocable living" at a minimum.

 

Good info, kepp the name simple, taking out revocable living I did'nt know....Thanks!

[romad7 75]

You, the maker, send in a Form 1 in duplicate, an ATF Form 5330.20, a $200 check, and a copy of your trust. One day, don't hold your breath, you will receive one of your Form 1s with the Tax Stamp affixed. Mine is due any day. :-)

 

Just for clarification, you are not the maker. Your trust is. Your trust files the Form 1. You put your trust's name in Block 3b of the Form 1. You will also need to have your trust's full name, city, and state engraved on the receiver or barrel. So keep your trust name short. If you made it in Willmaker you can export it to Word and change the name, take out "revocable living" at a minimum.

 

Thanks, I was trying to figure out how to make a custom name and not just have to use my real name like Willmaker defaults to. I didn't want my name on my gun for privacy and that would be a long engraving.

 

Good info!

[1mile50 102]

You, the maker, send in a Form 1 in duplicate, an ATF Form 5330.20, a $200 check, and a copy of your trust. One day, don't hold your breath, you will receive one of your Form 1s with the Tax Stamp affixed. Mine is due any day. :-)

 

Just for clarification, you are not the maker. Your trust is. Your trust files the Form 1. You put your trust's name in Block 3b of the Form 1. You will also need to have your trust's full name, city, and state engraved on the receiver or barrel. So keep your trust name short. If you made it in Willmaker you can export it to Word and change the name, take out "revocable living" at a minimum.

 

Thanks, I was trying to figure out how to make a custom name and not just have to use my real name like Willmaker defaults to. I didn't want my name on my gun for privacy and that would be a long engraving.

 

Good info!

 

Josh is right, I forgot to keep the literal and legal separate.

 

Here is a good link on filling out your forms properly;

 

http://blog.princelaw.com/2008/09/05/how-to-fill-out-a-form-1-or-form-4-when-using-a-gun-nfa-trust-2/

[JoshAston 39]

A signed and notorized copy

 

I've never used a signed and notarized copy, just a regular photocopy. I've had 4 approved that way.

[1mile50 102]

A signed and notorized copy

 

I've never used a signed and notarized copy, just a regular photocopy. I've had 4 approved that way.

 

He may mean a copy of the Trust where the Trust was signed and notarized prior to copy. My attorney emailed my Trust to me and I still have that on file, no notary, no signature.

[gunfun 3,931]

How much are you guys spending on fees to keep your trusts registered?

 

I always thought the trust was a good way to go, but as a single guy, I am not as sure anymore. It sounds like the fees add up pretty quickly if I don't have anyone else to put as a beneficiary of the trust.

 

I tried Tothefloor's supressors last Saturday. That ruined me. Now I know I will have to get one someday. His Makarov sounded a shade quieter with Silver bear JHP than most .22lrs. His .22lr (like mine) with a can that he says is a cheapo, felt so right....

Edited May 10, 2012 by GunFun

[romad7 75]

Do you have to register your trust where you live? I dont think I have to do that here (east TN).

[1mile50 102]

How much are you guys spending on fees to keep your trusts registered?

 

I always thought the trust was a good way to go, but as a single guy, I am not as sure anymore. It sounds like the fees add up pretty quickly if I don't have anyone else to put as a beneficiary of the trust.

 

I tried Tothefloor's supressors last Saturday. That ruined me. Now I know I will have to get one someday. His Makarov sounded a shade quieter with Silver bear JHP than most .22lrs. His .22lr (like mine) with a can that he says is a cheapo, felt so right....

 

No registration here. I took it to my CU and they notorized it. For free.

[JoshAston 39]

How much are you guys spending on fees to keep your trusts registered?

 

You're thinking of an LLC. Trusts don't require any fees or taxes.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

He may mean a copy of the Trust where the Trust was signed and notarized prior to copy. My attorney emailed my Trust to me and I still have that on file, no notary, no signature.

It's not legally valid without those steps. The ATF should catch that, but they often don't spot trust errors. It could be 'interesting' if they catch it in a few years. Interesting is rarely a good experiance with the Feds.

Edited May 11, 2012 by KevinInNM

[armalite_ar50 86]

YA a copy of the trust.

 

I just make a copy of the trust with a updated Shed. A ( signed & notarized)

 

slap it all in a envelope with the forms and a money order. And of it goes.

 

Got a few stamps with it myself.

 

There are no fees to keep a trust going in my state ( pa ) but yours may be different.

Also no registration of it here either.

 

 

The BATFE does have their legal team go over them each time you send it in.

 

There is a guy on UZITALK that has had his form 4 kicked back 2 times now.

On a trust

 

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?66095-My-Form-4-is-getting-returned-for-the-2nd-time.

 

So don't think you can just get some "mumbo jumbo" typed up and throw a Sched. A in the middle and have it approved.

 

Goldman & Guntrust lawyer, Prince are expensive and Guntrust lawyer (well I won't bad mouth him since I did my research before I paid out)

 

Just find a good estate lawyer that knows what they are doing or will refer you to one that does. Or has their paralegal look up the proper way to do it.

[JoshAston 39]

He may mean a copy of the Trust where the Trust was signed and notarized prior to copy. My attorney emailed my Trust to me and I still have that on file, no notary, no signature.

It's not legally valid without those steps. The ATF should catch that, but they often don't spot trust errors. It could be 'interesting' if they catch it in a few years. Interesting is rarely a good experiance with the Feds.

 

There's no requirement for the copy you send them to be legally valid so long as it proves that the original copy that you have in your possession is legally valid. Therefore a photocopy of the notary stamp and signatures is fine.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

There's no requirement for the copy you send them to be legally valid so long as it proves that the original copy that you have in your possession is legally valid. Therefore a photocopy of the notary stamp and signatures is fine.

That is true. But I would not be shocked to find that the ATF has processed a trust where it wasn't signed or notorized. That could get "interesting".