A couple of questions about my new Saiga 223 Sweetie !

[genesis5521 9]

Never had and never thought I'd want a "black gun". Never say never.

 

Yesterday, after a lot of research because I'd never heard of Saiga, I purchased a brand new Saiga 223 with a straight grip for $399 from my LGS. It's a Plain Jane model with no frills. It came with one 10 round mag and a cleaning kit. Fired it today. WHAT A SWEETIE! It makes a pretty loud BANG, but virtually no recoil. I'm not an AK aficionado and have no plans to modify this gun in any way. I prefer a straight grip over a pistol grip. It's balanced just the way I like. It seems lighter than it's published 7 pounds. It's a short, handy accurate, reliable, affordable, rifle. All I'm gonna add is a sling. No optics. I prefer open sights. (Although it has the side rail for mounting optics.)

 

A couple of questions.

 

1) I'd like to get a couple of 30 round mags. Am I correct that the general consensus is to go with the Sure Fire mags?

 

2) Do I need to do anything to get the Sure Fire mags to work?

 

3) (And this is the sticky one) Will this gun be 922R compliant with a 30 round Sure Fire mag? The way I understand 922R is the gun can't have more then 10 specific Russian made parts. I'm assuming the mag that came with the gun is Russian made and I'm also assuming that the Sure Fire mag is American made. So I would be decreasing the number of Russian parts and increasing the number of American parts. Plus, I'm retaining the straight, fixed stock (and everything else) it came with, except for using a high capacity mag. I'm pretty fuzzy on all of this, so any help/info would be appreciated. I really want to keep this gun as stock as possible. I really like it just the way it is.

 

4) When I bought the gun (yesterday) I also bought 1000 rounds of bulk Federal 5.56 brass cased ammo ($349). I could have purchased 1000 rounds of steel cased ammo for $269. I'd like to reload for this gun, as I do for all of my guns. I noticed that the fired cases have a slight dent. Will this be smoothed out during the reloading process, or is there some other remedy for this?

 

Oh! The best part of all of this is my girl friend paid for half of this as a birthday/Christmas present. She's the best Sweetie! I have a shooting range on my property and she shoots with me all of the time.

 

Any and all help/info you guys can provide will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Don <><

[jbanzai 113]

Surefires will work as is, but your weapon will not be 922r compliant. The mag is worth 3 parts. You could get a Tapco fire control group for an unmodified Saiga at Dinzag arms. There may be other vendors that modify the Tapco trigger for un converted Saigas but don't know for sure. I would get the Tapco trigger anyway as I thought the stock FCG on my Saiga was horrible.

 

The denting will not go away unless you do something about it.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/32302-223-dented-shell-casing-and-info-on-the-boltface/

 

AK's were meant to have pistol grips....but that's just me.

[mancat 2,368]

Most people convert the rifle to standard AK layout in order to get the correct count of 922r parts. The added benefit are better ergonomics and a higher quality trigger. I understand the desire to leave things as they are, but the converted Saiga is much better in every way. If you have never fired a standard AK before you probably aren't aware of how awkward the factory stock is by comparison.

 

If you want to leave the rifle alone and keep it legal, you might just want to stick with a set of Russian 10-round magazines. You can probably find them cheaply used. A lot of Saiga owners just get rid of them.

[genesis5521 9]

Most people convert the rifle to standard AK layout in order to get the correct count of 922r parts. The added benefit are better ergonomics and a higher quality trigger. I understand the desire to leave things as they are, but the converted Saiga is much better in every way. If you have never fired a standard AK before you probably aren't aware of how awkward the factory stock is by comparison.

 

If you want to leave the rifle alone and keep it legal, you might just want to stick with a set of Russian 10-round magazines. You can probably find them cheaply used. A lot of Saiga owners just get rid of them.

 

I'm the OP. I wasn't looking for an AK when I bought this gun. I bought it because it had all of the features I wanted,and the price was right. It just happened to be an AK variant. I've shot guns with pistol grips but just never liked them much. My brother had a real AK with a pistol grip. It was a real nice gun, but I didn't like that darn pistol grip. That's why I don't like M-16's. I may just do what you suggested and just get a bunch of 10 round mags.

 

Thanks,

 

Don <><

[Superhawk138 202]

You could also change the hand guard or the gas piston to an USA made then with surefire mags you would be in compliance.

 

Welcome aboard

[genesis5521 9]

You could also change the hand guard or the gas piston to an USA made then with surefire mags you would be in compliance. Welcome aboard

 

Hi Superhawk. You mean I can change just one internal part, like the gas piston, and be 992R compliant?

 

Don <><

[Superhawk138 202]

Yes changing out the gas piston or handguard and using USA made magazines ONLY would drop your parts count from 14 as imported down to 10 and meet 922r. Although best route would be change the FCG and gas piston or handguard to meet compliance then you could use surplus mags.

[Jaba1017 71]

The hammer would be easier than the piston. An SMG handguard would easy too and keep things very stock like.

[genesis5521 9]

The hammer would be easier than the piston. An SMG handguard would easy too and keep things very stock like.

 

Hi Jaba. You'll have to forgive me as I'm a rookie when it come to this parts swapping stuff on AK's. I checked on the gas piston, and that does take some drilling.

 

So you're saying I could just remove my handguard, and replace it with an SMG handguard. Is it a straight swap with no monkeying around?

I've replaced hammers in my revolvers. Is the hammer replacement just a straight swap with no drilling or filing?

 

Do you have the web site address where I could get these parts?

 

Thanks Jaba,

 

Don <><

[Mitch535 29]

Hammer replacement is easy, but at that point you might as well convert. You are really doing a disservice to yourself by not going through with a conversion. The trigger on a converted saiga is such a huge improvement. Just my opinion, its like refusing to try two ply toilet paper because you just love that single ply too much.

[genesis5521 9]

I'm the OP. I know a lot of you want me to do a conversion. But I would end up with a gun that I wouldn't like. I don't mind the stock trigger. I like the straight grip stock. I like everything about this gun just like it is. Remember, my brother had an AK and I played with it a lot, but didn't care for it. Don't get me wrong. The AK is one mighty fine gun, just not for me. If I wanted an AK, I would have purchased an AK which is truer to the original.

 

I do have another question though. As most of my shooting is just slow fire range shooting, I really don't need the semi-auto capability. Can I turn my gun in to a single shot by simply removing the gas tube. Or is there some other simple way to make it a single shot when I want to. I reload for all of my guns and I'm thinking this would eliminate the dented cases.

 

Thanks guys,

 

Don <><

Edited December 5, 2012 by genesis5521

[Superhawk138 202]

You would need to weld up the gasport in the barrel or try to find/make a adjustable gas block to cut gas off.

 

Here is an example of a adjustable gas block that could be used.

 

Edited December 3, 2012 by superhawk138

[genesis5521 9]

You would need to weld up the gasport in the barrel or try to find/make a adjustable gas block to cut gas off.

 

Hi Superhawk. I'm curious why simply removing the gas piston wouldn't work. What about removing the gas tube?

 

Don <><

[Superhawk138 202]

It would as far as making it into single shot but you would have a huge blast of bad stuff come right at you.

[mancat 2,368]

I think you bought the wrong gun.

 

If you want a nice bolt-action .223 rifle, I suggest you take a look at the CZ 527 series.

[vulcan16 971]

The easiest and cheapest way to achieve 922r is SGM mags & a Tapco interfuse hand guard.

[genesis5521 9]

I think you bought the wrong gun. If you want a nice bolt-action .223 rifle, I suggest you take a look at the CZ 527 series.

 

Hi Mancat. I'm not a bolt action fan. All my rifles are lever actions, except for my newest toy, which I love! I just need to tweak it a little to suit my purpose. I want it to be semi-auto for some run & gun fun. But I also want it to be single shot for just general plinking and target practice. And I don't want it to dent the brass as I reload. I'm checking out a couple of options. Like a 15% stronger Wolff recoil spring from Brownells ($15.99), an adjustable gas block from Cope's Distributing ($99.99), and a Valmet Ejection Port Buffer ($45). When this is all taken care of, then I'll deal with the high capacity mags and the 922r issues. I just have to take things slow, think things through, do a lot of research, and seek input from knowledge guys like you. But it's fun!

 

Don <><

[genesis5521 9]

The easiest and cheapest way to achieve 922r is SGM mags & a Tapco interfuse hand guard.

 

Hi Jetmech. Thanks for those suggestions. I just checked them out. A 30 round SGM mag is $28.95 and the Tapco Intrafuse Hand Guard is $49.99. I don't like rails. I'd prefer a smooth hand guard. But this one will have to do. Please check my links and let me know if I got it wrong (which has been know to happen).

 

Wait! Now you got me thinking. I'm wondering if the stiffer recoil spring, adjustable gas block, and Valmet Ejection Port Buffer, I'd like to install would count toward 922r compliance? Then maybe I wouldn't have to get the Tapco Intrafuse Hand Guard. Any thoughts on this?

 

Thanks again,

 

Don <><

 

http://www.mississip...2b36e7aeae12c82

 

http://www.tapco.com...productId=155#a

Edited December 4, 2012 by genesis5521

[COLD GIN 0]

I had no problems with Surefire mags. No need for BG either since its built into the mag.

[vulcan16 971]

The easiest and cheapest way to achieve 922r is SGM mags & a Tapco interfuse hand guard.

 

Hi Jetmech. Thanks for those suggestions. I just checked them out. A 30 round SGM mag is $28.95 and the Tapco Intrafuse Hand Guard is $49.99. I don't like rails. I'd prefer a smooth hand guard. But this one will have to do. Please check my links and let me know if I got it wrong (which has been know to happen).

 

Wait! Now you got me thinking. I'm wondering if the stiffer recoil spring, adjustable gas block, and Valmet Ejection Port Buffer, I'd like to install would count toward 922r compliance? Then maybe I wouldn't have to get the Tapco Intrafuse Hand Guard. Any thoughts on this?

 

Thanks again,

 

Don <><

 

http://www.mississip...2b36e7aeae12c82

 

http://www.tapco.com...productId=155#a

The rails are removable & the holes can be filled with hole plugs. There is one for sale in in the WTS section for $35 shipped.

[genesis5521 9]

I don't like rails. I'd prefer a smooth hand guard.

 

The rails are removable & the holes can be filled with hole plugs. There is one for sale in in the WTS section for $35 shipped.

 

Thanks again Jetmech. I sent an inquiry to Minkman. I think he's the one you're referring to.

 

Just curious, but what does WTS and WTT mean? Remember, I'm a rookie.

 

Don <><

[vulcan16 971]

want to sale/want to trade.

[genesis5521 9]

want to sale/want to trade.

 

Daaaaaa. Tanks Jet. Now I'm embarrassed for asking. Some of us is intellectually challenged.

 

Don <><

[genesis5521 9]

OP here again. I just came in from my range to report on the dented brass issue. As suggested by someone, I put 4 layers of electrical tape over the point on the dust cover where the spent brass was hitting. Fired one round. Tape flew off, but not even a whisper of a dent or scratch on the spent case, and the brass flew 15 feet and 90 degrees to my right. Now that I know that fixes the problem, I'll find a better way to attach something soft.

 

Edit: 2 layers from a bicycle inner tube held on by just one layer of good old tuck tape did the trick. Fired 10 round and everything held together and not one dented case! It ain't pretty, but it works. Throws the cases 20 feet to my right at 90 degrees. (Those 2 layers are 2 single layers, not 2 doubled-up layers.)

 

Don <><

Edited December 4, 2012 by genesis5521

[mancat 2,368]

One thing that nobody else seems to have tried is to dip that particular edge of the dust cover in plasti-dip. Don't know how well it would hold up.

 

I have an extra-power recoil spring in my .223 to soften the cycling of hotter-loaded 5.56 NATO. I also typically have a ribbed AK-74 dustcover on the rifle, rather than the factory dustcover. The ribbed cover has a rolled forward edge into the chamber, rather than the hard-cut edge that the factory cover has.

 

These two things together lead to the cases being barely dented at all on the case wall. Some brass still gets banged up, but it's nowhere near what happens with the gun in its factory config. Next time I'm out, I can collect some example brass for you, but I only have steel .223 on hand at the moment.

 

Also beware that part of the problem is that the case neck can slam up against the bolt carrier charging handle.

[jerry52 893]

They work great but some may need the mag catch sanded slightly, I have 3 and had to sand each one not much, they are real tight.

and if you install a BG they can be cut down .

Congrads I felt the same way and it shoots nato great as well

[Sunset_Va 2]

I have a stock 21" barreled Saiga 223, and prefer it stock, there is nothing wrong with converting any stock Saiga if that is what you want, but some of us like Saiga's with rifle stocks.

 

I installed the TWS sight rail system, threaded the muzzle for a Vortex, changed to standard black AK hand guards using a CSS hand guard retainer, fiber optic front sight and use the Saiga 10 round mags most of the time.

 

No the trigger's not perfect, but I don't think it's as bad as some describe, if you coat the trigger works with Moly Resin, like I did, it smooths the pull up to a degree.

 

The wood buttstock for stock Saiga shotguns By Ironwood Designs would fit the 223, coupled with a laminated wood hand guard set, would be appealing, although kinda expensive.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Sunset_Va

[genesis5521 9]

I have an extra-power recoil spring in my .223 to soften the cycling of hotter-loaded 5.56 NATO. I also typically have a ribbed AK-74 dustcover on the rifle, rather than the factory dustcover. The ribbed cover has a rolled forward edge into the chamber, rather than the hard-cut edge that the factory cover has. These two things together lead to the cases being barely dented at all on the case wall. Some brass still gets banged up, but it's nowhere near what happens with the gun in its factory config. Next time I'm out, I can collect some example brass for you, but I only have steel .223 on hand at the moment.

 

Hi Mancat. Can you really notice a difference in recoil with that extra power recoil spring? This thing hardly kits at all in its current state. I think I could rest it on my chin and pull the trigger. But I've heard the extra power spring prevents some internal parts from getting beat-up. Also, is that ribbed cover a direct replacement for my smooth cover? I've heard the ribbed covers are thinner than the smooth cover. Hence the ribs for reinforcement.

 

Don <><

[jerry52 893]

I have the xp spring to just for nato works great

[mancat 2,368]

I have an extra-power recoil spring in my .223 to soften the cycling of hotter-loaded 5.56 NATO. I also typically have a ribbed AK-74 dustcover on the rifle, rather than the factory dustcover. The ribbed cover has a rolled forward edge into the chamber, rather than the hard-cut edge that the factory cover has. These two things together lead to the cases being barely dented at all on the case wall. Some brass still gets banged up, but it's nowhere near what happens with the gun in its factory config. Next time I'm out, I can collect some example brass for you, but I only have steel .223 on hand at the moment.

 

Hi Mancat. Can you really notice a difference in recoil with that extra power recoil spring? This thing hardly kits at all in its current state. I think I could rest it on my chin and pull the trigger. But I've heard the extra power spring prevents some internal parts from getting beat-up. Also, is that ribbed cover a direct replacement for my smooth cover? I've heard the ribbed covers are thinner than the smooth cover. Hence the ribs for reinforcement.

 

Don <><

 

Maybe it's just my particular rifle, but in my opinion the rifle was over-gassed in its stock form, and it was very noticeable when firing 5.56 NATO loads, which operate at higher pressures than any hot commercial .223 Rem load. The bolt carrier would contact the rear trunnion (the rearmost machined steel portion inside the receiver) when firing 5.56 NATO. Most AKs have some contact between the rear trunnion and the carrier under normal circumstances, but I felt that the carrier was slamming back quite hard. It could be heard and felt more than any other AK I own.

 

After adding the Wolff extra-power spring, the recoil of both 5.56 and .223 are softened noticeably - and yes, there is not that much recoil to begin with. The extra-power spring has the effect of reducing the strength of the gas pulse by increasing the sprung resistance of the carrier assembly. The spring does not affect function with lighter commercial .223 loads.

 

A ribbed AK-74 dust cover is what you need if you wanted to replace the stock cover. A normal AKM/AK-47 ribbed cover doesn't have the proper relief cut for the style of safety lever that is used on the Saiga. The ribbed dust cover is thinner, which is why the stamped surface is ribbed to make it more rigid. I've read something to the effect that Russian manufacturers went back to the thicker smooth cover because they felt that it increased the rigidity of the whole receiver - I can't understand how that would make a difference, since the cover is not part of the receiver nor is it secured that tightly, but who am I to argue with them. The only thing I can figure is that the thicker cover is less likely to dent or malform if the rifle is dropped onto it.

 

I would experiment with your factory dust-cover first. Many people add a piece of rubber door/weather stripping to it. Even the type you find in an auto store for lining the edges of car doors may work OK.

 

I would be happy to pick up some brass ammo and show you what the effect of just a different recoil spring and dust cover have on the brass. It may be more or less than I recall - haven't shot brass in a while.

 

The other issue that is mostly unavoidable is the bolt carrier hitting the brass as it recoils forwards. You really can't avoid that.

Edited December 5, 2012 by mancat