Navy87Guy 1 Posted August 17, 2013 Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 A friend of mine has the Ruger Gunsite Scout Scope rifle in .308. (http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/models.html) While he loves it, I'm not so in love with the price -- over $1000! I'm looking for something durable and dependable to do some infrequent game hunting. The .308 seems to be a good general purpose caliber, so now I'm looking for the right platform. I have a Saiga 7.62x39 and S-12 (both of which I converted myself), and I have a lot of confidence in the Saiga platform. So what do you guys think -- would a Saiga .308 be a good candidate for this kind of application? Here are my concerns: - Picatinny Rail: Is the stock handguard on a .308 suitable to mount a top rail (like the Ruger)? - Trigger: We all know how sloppy the Sporter trigger is, with the linkage set up. Has anyone done any mods to improve it in the Sporter configuration? Or doesn't it matter? - Barrel Length: The Ruger comes in 16.5 and 18 inch lengths. For infrequent hunting (primarily deer), would experienced hunters recommend the 21 in or the 16.5 in Saiga? (And I'm not particularly interested in trying to cut down a 21" barrel to something shorter). - What am I forgetting (or unaware of)? Any and all inputs are appreciated. Thanks!Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jaba1017 71 Posted August 17, 2013 Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 The stock .308 trigger doesn't have the wishbone linkage system. It has a long trigger that directly releases the hammer just like a regular AK trigger. The problem with this trigger is that it requires an annoying upward pull. That and it isn't very crisp. So the stock trigger really needs to be mated with a monte carlo style stock to allow for that upward trigger pull. The trigger assembly on the Saiga .308 is what makes it so easy to convert. Looking at the design of the trigger you can't help but conclude that Izhmash engineers designed the stock trigger to go in the trash can, and not to be used in any practical application. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Navy87Guy 1 Posted August 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 I didn't realize that about the .308 trigger -- I just assumed it was like my 7.62x39 (which didn't stay that way for very long at all!). Does anybody make a synthetic Monte Carlo for the Saiga? (Yes, I'll do some Googling but first-hand experience is always preferred!) I don't mind changing out the stock, but I'm just not in for the expense of a full conversion right now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zagumennyyilya 51 Posted August 17, 2013 Report Share Posted August 17, 2013 are you worried about the expense? or you live in a restricted state? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jaba1017 71 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 The Saiga comes with a synthetic Monte Carlo stock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 For anyone not familiar with Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle that Jim is referring to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle You could probably make "your version" of the Scout Rifle out of a Saiga. It would certainly be an interesting project. The semi-auto action and the extra rail for the forend are slighty "off" from his original concept, but I won't tell anyone. My version of his concept is the Springfield M1A Scout model. I need to dust that off and take it out again sometime... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Navy87Guy 1 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 are you worried about the expense? or you live in a restricted state? It's just the expense. I live in Virginia...we have very progressive firearms laws. I already have a 7.62x39 and S-12 Saiga that I've converted -- I just can't afford another conversion right now if it's not really necessary...which I don't believe it is for a hunting rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunman1 1,753 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 The S308 is the most simple and cost effective of all the Saigas to convert, at least it was for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 For anyone not familiar with Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle that Jim is referring to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle You could probably make "your version" of the Scout Rifle out of a Saiga. It would certainly be an interesting project. The semi-auto action and the extra rail for the forend are slighty "off" from his original concept, but I won't tell anyone. If you read his writings, you'll note that Cooper wasn't necesarily opposed to the idea of a self-loading scout rifle. They went with bolt guns because there wasn't a semi-auto that would meet the weight requirement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted August 18, 2013 Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 Ive built a couple of "scout" AKs using the Scout mounts, the good ones. Scoutscopes has one that is well made. The converted 16" 308 is an excellent platform if you keep an eye on weight and use light optics. Balance isnt bad at all on polly furniture. Outside of using a flaky mount, optics is where most people foul up, if you cant afford a good LER scope, not a pistol though, go to a red dot, a brake would relieve some of the stress on them. Will say this, target acquisition is very fast and since you can keep both eyes open field of view is excellent. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Navy87Guy 1 Posted August 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2013 The Saiga comes with a synthetic Monte Carlo stock. Ah -- I guess I was thinking about some of the models I've seen with a much more dramatic curve to the grip portion of the stock, since you specifically called out the need to pair the stock trigger with the Monte Carlo. I figured you meant something different than what comes standard. Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 With all due regard to Col. Cooper, I think if you are using a 1x red dot or a lower powered scope on a .308, you are doing a disservice to the cartridge's power and trajectory. And originally, the forward mounted scope was specified to allow operation with stripper clips, and they specified a fixed power scope because there was less to break than with a variable. They found it to have some additional benefits in pointing and snap shooting, but we're talking about a gun that uses detachable magazines here, and cannot feed from stripper clips. That, and variable scopes are a lot better now, and turning one down can get you most of the benefits of the scout scope, but you can turn it up for better performance at longer range. So I just don't see a huge amount of benefit to a forward mount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 For anyone not familiar with Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle that Jim is referring to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_rifle You could probably make "your version" of the Scout Rifle out of a Saiga. It would certainly be an interesting project. The semi-auto action and the extra rail for the forend are slighty "off" from his original concept, but I won't tell anyone. If you read his writings, you'll note that Cooper wasn't necesarily opposed to the idea of a self-loading scout rifle. They went with bolt guns because there wasn't a semi-auto that would meet the weight requirement. That's why I said the changes would only be "slightly off" from his original concept. My M1A definitely does not meet his weight requirement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 With all due regard to Col. Cooper, I think if you are using a 1x red dot or a lower powered scope on a .308, you are doing a disservice to the cartridge's power and trajectory. And originally, the forward mounted scope was specified to allow operation with stripper clips, and they specified a fixed power scope because there was less to break than with a variable. They found it to have some additional benefits in pointing and snap shooting, but we're talking about a gun that uses detachable magazines here, and cannot feed from stripper clips. That, and variable scopes are a lot better now, and turning one down can get you most of the benefits of the scout scope, but you can turn it up for better performance at longer range. So I just don't see a huge amount of benefit to a forward mount. Good thing about the the 308 is flexibility and how it fits so well into whatever mission you assign a firearm. Short range CQB , 0-300yd MBR, or longer range reach out and touch all work well. Maybe not the best in any except the MBR function but perfectly acceptable in all. If I had to live with just one caliber of rifle, 308 hands down. Speed and field of view have been the biggest advantages I can attest to scout mounts. The red dots are at least as accurate and much faster than iron sights, reliability aside. Low light shooting goes hands down to the red dot. That being said I have exactly one weapon with a red dot, and its scout mounted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 A Scout Scopes mount would probably be my choice for this application. The Samson rear sight rail could do the trick as well. I have one of each of those mounts, both with micro red dots, and the height above bore is almost identical. I'm a bit leery of the Samson mount's design. Despite being made of steel compared to the Scout Scope's aluminum, the Samson RSR has some fairly thin sections that would be subjected to the clamping stress of whatever optic is being mounted. So far it's been a non-issue, but time will tell. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 The only problem I have run into with scoutscopes are those set screws, keep some extra on hand in case one looks like its wallowing. I was just playing with the thing moving it from one rifle to another to see how I liked things, so if it's install and forget that shouldnt happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted August 24, 2013 Report Share Posted August 24, 2013 On the base portion, the set screws are basically set-and-forget. I replaced the set screws that affix the rail to the base with slotted thumbscrews in case I need to remove it in a hurry and don't have an Allen wrench. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted August 24, 2013 Report Share Posted August 24, 2013 Good idea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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