Tactical shotgun ammo

[TacticalResponse 0]

high power pistol or rifle ammunition can be bought from a number of different companies. However high power tactical shotgun ammo that only LEO or the military uses can be difficult to come by. Why the strange discrimination against 12 gauge shotgun owners? Federal has a policy of not selling to the public and if they catch one of their wholesalers distributing it they will cut them off, yet some Federal still does get on the market. The ammoman sells it off and on. A certain portion of LEO non low recoil ammo sold travels at around 1370 FPS all the way to 1500 Fps. Quite a difference from civilian 12 gauge ammo that usually travels at between 1190 to the low 1200's. So what is the answer? Hornady sells it's 00 buck TAP ammo to the public and it's stated velocity is 1370 FPS. Estate Cartridge INC. sells a shell called high velocity 8 ball buckshot that travels at 1400 FPS. Both rounds have new cup technology that has given me the smallest group sizes that I have ever seen. The only way that I know of obtaining a 1500 FPS shells is to load your own using Hodgdon longshot powder. Then the legal question comes up if you ever have to use it for self defense. Why did you load your own ammo? I'm sure that it makes great Duck, Geese and Crow loads. I've even heard of people loading it up to 1600 FPS for reaching out farther while bird hunting although Hodgdon charts only go to 1500 FPS. Longshot used to be only a canister powder until they decided to market it to the public. A lot of high velocity LEO shells use longshot powder because of it's low pressure high velocity capabilities.

Edited January 7, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[NoAim 0]

high power pistol or rifle ammunition can be bought from a number of different companies. However high power tactical shotgun ammo that only LEO or the military uses can be difficult to come by. Why the strange discrimation against 12 gauge shotgun owners? Federal has a policy of not selling to the public and if they catch one of their wholesalers distrubuting it they will cut them off, yet some Federal still does get on the market. The ammoman sells it off and on. A certain portion of LEO non low recoil ammo sold travels at around 1370 FPS all the way to 1500 Fps. Quite a difference from civilian 12 gauge ammo that usually travels at between 1190 to the low 1200's. So what is the answer? Hornaday sells it's 00 buck TAP ammo to the public and it's stated velocity is 1370 FPS. Estate Cartridge INC. sells a shell called high velocity 8 ball buckshot that travels at 1400 FPS. Both rounds have new cup technology that has given me the smallest group sizes that I have ever seen. The only way that I know of obtaining a 1500 FPS shells is to load your own using Hodgdon longshot powder. Then the legal question comes up if you ever have to use it for self defense. Why did you load your own ammo?

 

 

Winchester won't sell Ranger-T pistol ammo to non-LEO

Hornady won't sell 5.56mm TAP to non-LEO (only lower power .223)

 

Federal is not unique.

 

Why? Probably because Bubba goes to Wal-Mart, picks up ammo for his 50 year old boom stick, blows it up, sues the ammo company.

[TacticalResponse 0]

high power pistol or rifle ammunition can be bought from a number of different companies. However high power tactical shotgun ammo that only LEO or the military uses can be difficult to come by. Why the strange discrimation against 12 gauge shotgun owners? Federal has a policy of not selling to the public and if they catch one of their wholesalers distrubuting it they will cut them off, yet some Federal still does get on the market. The ammoman sells it off and on. A certain portion of LEO non low recoil ammo sold travels at around 1370 FPS all the way to 1500 Fps. Quite a difference from civilian 12 gauge ammo that usually travels at between 1190 to the low 1200's. So what is the answer? Hornaday sells it's 00 buck TAP ammo to the public and it's stated velocity is 1370 FPS. Estate Cartridge INC. sells a shell called high velocity 8 ball buckshot that travels at 1400 FPS. Both rounds have new cup technology that has given me the smallest group sizes that I have ever seen. The only way that I know of obtaining a 1500 FPS shells is to load your own using Hodgdon longshot powder. Then the legal question comes up if you ever have to use it for self defense. Why did you load your own ammo?

 

 

Winchester won't sell Ranger-T pistol ammo to non-LEO

Hornady won't sell 5.56mm TAP to non-LEO (only lower power .223)

 

Federal is not unique.

 

Why? Probably because Bubba goes to Wal-Mart, picks up ammo for his 50 year old boom stick, blows it up, sues the ammo company.

 

 

I don't know it seems like Law Enforcement doesn't like seeing high power 12 gauge ammo on the market. Estate cartridge Inc. is sort of a secret among shooters. We'll not on this forum any more! Rumors had it for a long time that their were attempts to stop them from selling their high velocity ammo to the public. I talked to a manager there about a year ago before they were bought out and asked him about attempts to have public sales stopped. He told me that a large majority of their sales were to Law Enforcement agencies and special Military contracts. I was told my him that quite a few agencies had complained to him about them selling to the public and if they continued that they would no longer buy from Estate cartridge Inc. We'll Estate refused to back down and kept selling to the public. Eventually they were bought out by Blount. Everyone was buying up their remaining high velocity ammo like crazy fearing that nothing like it would ever be seen on the market again. I use it in my S 12 for a self defense load and it's awesome. I did an Internet search and the new owners still seem to be making it which suprises me. It doesn't seem to be very politically correct for ammo manufacturers to sell high velocity shotgun ammunition to the public.

Edited January 6, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[kmoore 3]

Whats so tactical about it? Alot of tactical shotgun fodder is the low recoil stuff, and shotguns suffer from overpenetration as is.

 

So, are they trying to defeat barriers, extend range (on a shotgun?), break engine blocks?

 

Got to admit, I don't get it. Seems like that pool player who is sure he's better than anyone else, as he can smack the cue ball harder. Likely to beat a lot of beginners as he'll have more bounces and luck can play a larger part. But a skilled, finessed player will make him look silly.

 

The question is an honest one, I question it's use.

[TacticalResponse 0]

Whats so tactical about it? Alot of tactical shotgun fodder is the low recoil stuff, and shotguns suffer from overpenetration as is.

 

So, are they trying to defeat barriers, extend range (on a shotgun?), break engine blocks?

 

Got to admit, I don't get it. Seems like that pool player who is sure he's better than anyone else, as he can smack the cue ball harder. Likely to beat a lot of beginners as he'll have more bounces and luck can play a larger part. But a skilled, finessed player will make him look silly.

 

The question is an honest one, I question it's use.

 

 

 

It's just like any other high power ammo. Increased lethality, better pentration, being able to shoot through barriers. Automobiles, ect. If there was no use for it they wouldn't manufacturer and sell so much of it to Law Enforcement. A lot of people don't even know that it exist because of it's restrictions for sale to the public. If you own a 9mm pistol it's like going to a 40 S$W or moving up to a more powerful round like a .357 magnum or a 10mm from a 40 S&W. Number 4 buckshot at 1500 FPS is an incredible self defense round. It acts totally different than the slower number 4 buck that some agencies have moved away from because of a lack of performance. In my testing this round seems to be the best overall performer, yet you can't buy it. It all depends on the situation. I live in a rural area so over pentration is really not an issue as if I lived in a crowded suburan area. You use what the situation calls for. What makes a person believe that because your using high velocity shotgun ammo that your a terrible shot or or that your somehow a person that can't handle a tactical situation? Some of our nations finest use it and I don't consider them stupid or ignorant for doing so.

Edited January 6, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[Bvamp 604]

ok, Ill be the one who says it.

 

I would wager that there is a distinct diffenece if you are wearing body armor, and are shot at close range with a shotgun with different types of ammo. I would bet there is a threshold that guarantees a kill impulse through a vest, and I would also bet that that threshold is right around 1500 fps.

 

I would also like to add, and Im not trying to be nasty about it, that the police shouldnt (and dont from how I read the constituion) have access to better guns or ammo than the rest of the american citizen/gun owners out there. it is unconstitutional. being a cop means you might actually get shot at. go figure. who would have thought of that? dont like the thought of getting yourself killed by some schmuck? dont take the job! (kind of my arguement to people that bitch about our combat losses or lose a family member, and yes Ive said it, what do they think is going to happen when they join the army? they got shot? in the army? no....)

 

but because there is a crackhead that would use it, mommy and daddy dont want me to have it.

 

I think Im getting back into reloading after reading this. some dixie slugs @ 1600 fps sounds pretty good....

 

anyway, sorry about that line of logic guys, dont mean to piss anyone off, Im just trying to get my point across. I know its a touchy subject, and Ill apologise ahead of time for my comment.

[TacticalResponse 0]

ok, Ill be the one who says it.

 

I would wager that there is a distinct diffenece if you are wearing body armor, and are shot at close range with a shotgun with different types of ammo. I would bet there is a threshold that guarantees a kill impulse through a vest, and I would also bet that that threshold is right around 1500 fps.

 

I would also like to add, and Im not trying to be nasty about it, that the police shouldnt (and dont from how I read the constituion) have access to better guns or ammo than the rest of the american citizen/gun owners out there. it is unconstitutional. being a cop means you might actually get shot at. go figure. who would have thought of that? dont like the thought of getting yourself killed by some schmuck? dont take the job! (kind of my arguement to people that bitch about our combat losses or lose a family member, and yes Ive said it, what do they think is going to happen when they join the army? they got shot? in the army? no....)

 

but because there is a crackhead that would use it, mommy and daddy dont want me to have it.

 

I think Im getting back into reloading after reading this. some dixie slugs @ 1600 fps sounds pretty good....

 

anyway, sorry about that line of logic guys, dont mean to piss anyone off, Im just trying to get my point across. I know its a touchy subject, and Ill apologise ahead of time for my comment.

 

 

 

I don't like our government telling us that we can't own High velocity Shotgun ammo. With the way ammo manufacturers are restricting it's sale to civilians and the way that Law Enforcement agencies are acting regarding us owning it bothers me greatly. You can go to the Hodgdon website and look up shotsell loads for longshot powder. I don't believe that theres any load data for anything past 1500 FPS for longshot powder.. Could be a liability problem for them. Several companies will test your ammo pressures for you at a price of course. If you want to go up to 1600 FPS I would recomend doing this. I don't know what the recomended pressure limits for an S 12 chamber are. I would bet that either Cobra or Dodgeturbointercepter may have that info available. Basicly, all that it amounts to is having 9mm +P, 10mm full house, or 45 ACP +P ammo. Instead your having that grade of ammo for your your shotty. I don't see anything wrong with owning it. A high powered rifle is still going to have much greater penetrating power than hot shotshell loads.

Edited January 6, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[Bvamp 604]

tony is the man to ask about that type of thing, and he has previously stated it is one of the most robust barrels out there. its a question of if the stamped construction and spot welded rails can take it, I would think.

[TacticalResponse 0]

tony is the man to ask about that type of thing, and he has previously stated it is one of the most robust barrels out there. its a question of if the stamped construction and spot welded rails can take it, I would think.

 

 

 

I'll tell you that going to high velocity shotshells is basically turning your S 12 into a whole new weapon. Americans can buy hot pistol and rifle ammo but are restricted from buying hot shotgun ammo. Just doesn't make any sense to me. I've never had any trouble running high velocity loads through my S 12, as a matter of fact it seems to run a lot better! This whole hot shotgun ammo issue really comes down to gun owners rights. Shotgun owners need to be bold about the type of ammo that should be available to them. If we want the same type of hot ammo that is available to pistol and rifle owners then we have to make ourself's heard.

Edited January 6, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[Bvamp 604]

it is probably because of the impulse the higer velocity round makes on a body armorer officer. like i said, it is probably a guaranteed kill at close range from the impulse, over a "likely to" kill with regular ammunition. Im sure the added penetration through a vehicle is a factor as well.

 

again, what the hell is the difference? cops are always going to be shot, and soldiers are always going to be shot. what the hell difference does it make who has what ammo?

 

the next thing they will try to control is how much practice civilians can have at public ranges every month, after banning discharging of a firearm everywhere expect approved sites.

[TacticalResponse 0]

it is probably because of the impulse the higer velocity round makes on a body armorer officer. like i said, it is probably a guaranteed kill at close range from the impulse, over a "likely to" kill with regular ammunition. Im sure the added penetration through a vehicle is a factor as well.

 

again, what the hell is the difference? cops are always going to be shot, and soldiers are always going to be shot. what the hell difference does it make who has what ammo?

 

the next thing they will try to control is how much practice civilians can have at public ranges every month, after banning discharging of a firearm everywhere expect approved sites.

 

 

 

Nothing new to me when I left Kalafornia about 15 years ago they had what they called designated shooting areas. No, I'm not kidding. People had to drive about 1 1/2 hours from downtown San Diego into the mountains if they didn't want to shoot at a range. The Forest service would set up a small area to shoot where you could ( Legally shoot). After I left Kalafornia I heard that they moved it way up north making it much more difficult and untimely to reach, in an obivious attempt to discourage people from going shooting.

Edited January 6, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[ironhead7544 35]

Velocity is what makes a bullet penetrate a vest. I think some of the sabot rounds exceed 1500 fps so what about those loads? There is one reason I know of that the makers dont sell some of the +P+ ammo to the public. It wears guns out quickly. There are some agencys that sell their guns after 2500 rounds and these are the ones you see for sale in Shotgun News and the like. The ammo makers get a signed wavier from the police agency showng that they know the ammo is over pressure. This may be true with the hot shotgun loads also. Im not sure why a hot shotgun load is necessary. They have enough kick already. The Federal Tactical is what I use. The patterns are much better and quick followup shots are easy.

[TacticalResponse 0]

Velocity is what makes a bullet penetrate a vest. I think some of the sabot rounds exceed 1500 fps so what about those loads? There is one reason I know of that the makers dont sell some of the +P+ ammo to the public. It wears guns out quickly. There are some agencys that sell their guns after 2500 rounds and these are the ones you see for sale in Shotgun News and the like. The ammo makers get a signed wavier from the police agency showng that they know the ammo is over pressure. This may be true with the hot shotgun loads also. Im not sure why a hot shotgun load is necessary. They have enough kick already. The Federal Tactical is what I use. The patterns are much better and quick followup shots are easy.

 

 

The majority of the +P+ ammo on the market is 9mm, and most guns are not strong enough to even fire it.

The ones that do fire it, I've seen wear out with as little as 500 rounds of it run through them. Another problem is liability. You sell some +P+ ammo and a person blows up a gun along with themself's, we'll it's just not worth it. The Hodgdon load data using longshot powder does not produce excessive pressures. With # 4 buck using it, I've produced some really nasty ammo. Yes, It has a healthy kick to it, yet with the low pressure to high velocity characteristics that it has, it wouldn't be a liability to a manufacturer.

Edited January 7, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[kresk 10,063]

high power pistol or rifle ammunition can be bought from a number of different companies. However high power tactical shotgun ammo that only LEO or the military uses can be difficult to come by. Why the strange discrimation against 12 gauge shotgun owners? Federal has a policy of not selling to the public and if they catch one of their wholesalers distrubuting it they will cut them off, yet some Federal still does get on the market. The ammoman sells it off and on. A certain portion of LEO non low recoil ammo sold travels at around 1370 FPS all the way to 1500 Fps. Quite a difference from civilian 12 gauge ammo that usually travels at between 1190 to the low 1200's. So what is the answer? Hornaday sells it's 00 buck TAP ammo to the public and it's stated velocity is 1370 FPS. Estate Cartridge INC. sells a shell called high velocity 8 ball buckshot that travels at 1400 FPS. Both rounds have new cup technology that has given me the smallest group sizes that I have ever seen. The only way that I know of obtaining a 1500 FPS shells is to load your own using Hodgdon longshot powder. Then the legal question comes up if you ever have to use it for self defense. Why did you load your own ammo?

 

 

Winchester won't sell Ranger-T pistol ammo to non-LEO

Hornady won't sell 5.56mm TAP to non-LEO (only lower power .223)

 

Federal is not unique.

 

Why? Probably because Bubba goes to Wal-Mart, picks up ammo for his 50 year old boom stick, blows it up, sues the ammo company.

 

 

Hornady TAP Law Enforcement Ammo .223 55gr 3240fps, 60gr 3115fps both in CheaperThanDirt catalog that came today. Also TAP .308's, 9mm, .40-S&W, .45 Auto, 12 Ga. OO Buck Red Hull (last one temporarily out of stock.)

 

FYI.

[TacticalResponse 0]

high power pistol or rifle ammunition can be bought from a number of different companies. However high power tactical shotgun ammo that only LEO or the military uses can be difficult to come by. Why the strange discrimation against 12 gauge shotgun owners? Federal has a policy of not selling to the public and if they catch one of their wholesalers distrubuting it they will cut them off, yet some Federal still does get on the market. The ammoman sells it off and on. A certain portion of LEO non low recoil ammo sold travels at around 1370 FPS all the way to 1500 Fps. Quite a difference from civilian 12 gauge ammo that usually travels at between 1190 to the low 1200's. So what is the answer? Hornady sells it's 00 buck TAP ammo to the public and it's stated velocity is 1370 FPS. Estate Cartridge INC. sells a shell called high velocity 8 ball buckshot that travels at 1400 FPS. Both rounds have new cup technology that has given me the smallest group sizes that I have ever seen. The only way that I know of obtaining a 1500 FPS shells is to load your own using Hodgdon longshot powder. Then the legal question comes up if you ever have to use it for self defense. Why did you load your own ammo?

 

 

Winchester won't sell Ranger-T pistol ammo to non-LEO

Hornady won't sell 5.56mm TAP to non-LEO (only lower power .223)

 

Federal is not unique.

 

Why? Probably because Bubba goes to Wal-Mart, picks up ammo for his 50 year old boom stick, blows it up, sues the ammo company.

 

 

Hornady TAP Law Enforcement Ammo .223 55gr 3240fps, 60gr 3115fps both in CheaperThanDirt catalog that came today. Also TAP .308's, 9mm, .40-S&W, .45 Auto, 12 Ga. OO Buck Red Hull (last one temporarily out of stock.)

 

FYI.

 

 

I don't understand the relationship that Hornady has with it's wholesalers selling TAP ammo to the public. Some companies will sell it to the public and others will not. Hornady seems to leave it up to the company that carries it as to wether or not they want to sell to anyone or just LEO. The hornady 12 Gauge 00 Buck/ TAP FPD really shoots some tight groups in my S 12. One day about two months ago I took my Saiga out with some friends that had several different types of Winchester and Remington shotguns. They had forcing cones, special chokes you name it they had it. they were all gun smiths. The groups that I shot with that Hornady TAP 00 buck were so tight that it was incredible. Needless to say, all of my shooting friends were very tight lipped about the whole event! They had rather large pellet groups! They all had spent a lot of time and money to get their shotgun group sizes down only to be beaten by a lowly Saiga that didn't even have a choke on it!

Edited January 7, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[beerslurpy 1]

Hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt TAP super expensive? I'd rather have S&B 00 buck and be able to practice with it a few times a month than have super duper ammo that costs an arm and a leg. Its the same with AK ammo, pistol ammo etc. I personally think being able to handle the gun and place shots effectively is most important and that only comes with practice.

 

I figure if a badguy somehow gets ahold of a IIIA vest I can just keep shooting him until he drops. I dont particularly care if the first round kills him, breaks his ribs or just knocks the wind out of him. He is going to be deceased in quick order.

 

In any case S&B 00 buck has a ton of kick and throws 12 pellets per shot. It is a beefy, shoulder-bruising load that I would not want to be on the other end of. If an 8 or 10 round mag full of that doesnt kill a burglar, you should probably invest in some kryptonite.

Edited January 7, 2006 by beerslurpy

[kresk 10,063]

Hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt TAP super expensive? I'd rather have S&B 00 buck and be able to practice with it a few times a month than have super duper ammo that costs an arm and a leg. Its the same with AK ammo, pistol ammo etc. I personally think being able to handle the gun and place shots effectively is most important and that only comes with practice.

 

I figure if a badguy somehow gets ahold of a IIIA vest I can just keep shooting him until he drops. I dont particularly care if the first round kills him, breaks his ribs or just knocks the wind out of him. He is going to be deceased in quick order.

 

In any case S&B 00 buck has a ton of kick and throws 12 pellets per shot. It is a beefy, shoulder-bruising load that I would not want to be on the other end of. If an 8 or 10 round mag full of that doesnt kill a burglar, you should probably invest in some kryptonite.

 

The Hornady 12g 00 buck is $3.79/box of 5 (76 cents/rd), so not cheap but not outrageous. The TAP for rifle or handgun gets up there a little more, e.g. .308 173gr 3165fps is $18.97 for box of 20 (95 cents/rd.) The cheaper stuff is for play, the good stuff goes in the mags at home.

 

Agree. "If you're found here at night , you WILL be found here in the morning."

Edited January 7, 2006 by tritium

[TacticalResponse 0]

Hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt TAP super expensive? I'd rather have S&B 00 buck and be able to practice with it a few times a month than have super duper ammo that costs an arm and a leg. Its the same with AK ammo, pistol ammo etc. I personally think being able to handle the gun and place shots effectively is most important and that only comes with practice.

 

I figure if a badguy somehow gets ahold of a IIIA vest I can just keep shooting him until he drops. I dont particularly care if the first round kills him, breaks his ribs or just knocks the wind out of him. He is going to be deceased in quick order.

 

In any case S&B 00 buck has a ton of kick and throws 12 pellets per shot. It is a beefy, shoulder-bruising load that I would not want to be on the other end of. If an 8 or 10 round mag full of that doesnt kill a burglar, you should probably invest in some kryptonite.

 

 

 

 

If you saw what tight groups both Estate 00 buck 8 ball and Hornady 00Buck/TAP FPD made not to mention the increase in Foot pounds hitting the target you would say how did they do this? New shotshell technology with the new shotshell cup design giving incredible groups brings whole new defensive capability to shotguns. No forcing cones needed or chokes.

Edited January 7, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[beerslurpy 1]

If I need tight groups and big stopping power beyond 10 yards I will break out the AK. Actually, the AK has been my HD gun for a long time for reliability and ammo capacity reasons. edit: hopefully I can someday get some hicap saiga mags and use the shotty for HD like god intended.

 

Even so, IMO the S&B buck groups tight enough out to 25 yards to kill a burglar and penetrates enough that I dont really think that it is suffering from insufficient power. TAP might be nicer, but I cant honestly think of anything that TAP buck does that wolf 7.62x39 doesnt do 30 times better for 1/10th the price.

 

If you planned on getting into fights with people wearing trauma plates or hiding behind barriers, you need a rifle, not a shotgun.

 

My opinion, obviously. I know that pointing out the merits of rifles on a shotgun board is kind of flamebaity, but I think that we are fooling ourselves if we think that TAP buck is a decent substitute for a high capacity EBR (evil black rifle). Shotguns are for surprising unarmored intruders, rifles are for gunfights.

Edited January 7, 2006 by beerslurpy

[NoAim 0]

Hornady TAP Law Enforcement Ammo .223 55gr 3240fps, 60gr 3115fps both in CheaperThanDirt catalog that came today. Also TAP .308's, 9mm, .40-S&W, .45 Auto, 12 Ga. OO Buck Red Hull (last one temporarily out of stock.)

 

FYI.

 

 

.223 != 5.56mm. Difference in pressures resulting in about 100-150 fps increase.

 

As I said, the lighter loaded .223 is available, while the the hotter 5.56mm is to LEO only.

[TacticalResponse 0]

Hornady TAP Law Enforcement Ammo .223 55gr 3240fps, 60gr 3115fps both in CheaperThanDirt catalog that came today. Also TAP .308's, 9mm, .40-S&W, .45 Auto, 12 Ga. OO Buck Red Hull (last one temporarily out of stock.)

 

FYI.

 

 

.223 != 5.56mm. Difference in pressures resulting in about 100-150 fps increase.

 

As I said, the lighter loaded .223 is available, while the the hotter 5.56mm is to LEO only.

 

 

You can find the hot Hornady .223 75 grain boattail hollow point match TAP LEO ammo you just have to do a little searching to locate it. It's supposed to be one of the most accurate .223 factory loaded rounds made. The Hornady 12 GAUGE 00 BUCK/TAP FPD is usually easier to find. It's Very accurate in my S 12. Very lethal in hunting. I still find the Estate 00 buck 8 ball to be a little more accurate with slightly more power.

Edited January 7, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[Bvamp 604]

the neck angle is a hair different as well. I love argueing with guys about the 223 and 5.56 being different rounds, and then getting the caliper out.

[kmoore 3]

I still think overpenetration is an issue till you get down to #4 buck or so. Would help military where guy behind bg is bg, but police should prep for scenarios where gg's are in play. Someone tells me this is for breaching, or designated engine block buster then maybe, otherwise I think it's a tactical blunder waiting for a need. I don't know this load, but if I want more out of my shotgun ammo, it would be more pellets = more bleeding holes, vs same pellets with more energy which don't expand (much) and which are likely to leave the target anyway. That's just me. But I lean towards the low recoil side as I'd rather have faster follow up shots, tighter pattern first and foremost. So the shotcup technology is more valuable to me than the rest of the load.

 

As for the majic bullets thoughts, Bvamp do you realize your tinfoil hat is recyclable? More of a reason to keep it off the whole market (cops are >>> likely to have on body armor, they are not interested in propagating "kop killa" bullets which is what they'd be labled if they defeated armor. The whole idea of trama death .. well doesn't newton tell us the shooter would have many of the same problems at his shoulder? There are better tools to defeat a vest, and alternate shot placement if those tools aren't available.

 

As to the Estate loads, they were a great hidden secret. Then the company was purchased, make up was changed and the groups expanded to beyond normal (in my experience). This was 2 years ago or so. Am I behind on this, did they resurrect the old performance? Change the recipe?

 

Beerslurpy, huge agreement on the training. But you've got to run some of the premium stuff thru for several reasons. Got to rotate the ammo at some point, need to have experience in the ammo/firearm combination, and convince yourself of it's reliability. BTW, I'd suggest tactical matches as a good way to "wring" out your SD/HD equipment. Don't worry about the scores, there are guys who study every motion in the game. But it will stress you a little, and make you shoot in a variety of positions and styles (weak shoulder, around barricades, prone, etc, etc, etc). Not training in it's purest sense, but great for increasing trigger time and gun handling skills at a minimum.

 

Been a while since I came clean on this board, but my choice for HD is a ... rifle. As much as I love the saiga, it would not be my primary choice (no shotgun would).

 

Lastly, .223 is the civilian standard alright, but there is a lot of 5.56 surplus that is readily available on line.

 

Bottom line tho, I don't think limiting this ammo would stand up to constitutional review. I'd disagree on principal, tho I don't feel the need for this particular fodder

Edited January 7, 2006 by kmoore

[TacticalResponse 0]

I only found out this week that the new owners of Estate were still making the 00 buck high velocity 8 ball round. I have not ordered any of their new ammo so I can't say anything about the accuracy of it. You would think however, that if they are still using the shotshell technology that the old owners invented that it would still be as accurate as before.

[frick 3]

Hey guys is this the stuff you are looking for?

 

HOA8627

Manufacturer HORNADY AMMO [Website]

Man. Number 8627

Title HORNADY 12GA TAP LT MAG 00BK

Description HORNADY 8627 BUCKSHOT AMMO TACTICAL 12 GAUGE OO BUCK RED HULL LIGHT MAGNUM DESIGNED FOR PUMP OR SEMI-AUTO SHOTGUNS 5 RNDS PER BOX 50 BXS PER CASE

 

 

I can move it for $3.25 a box, in orders of at least 20 boxes, shipping could be flat rate postal, or UPS, your choice, either way, I would charge only the actual cost of shipping.

 

Cases of 50 could probably go for a little less, and 250 rounds of buck doesnt seem like too many for an S12, and if the govmint doesnt want you to have it, I find it all the more pleasing to help get it to you.

 

Also, my distributors list most other TAP products, with the exception of the 6.8 stuff, which I can also get a reasonable prices.

 

They put no restrictions on this that I know of, though I havent ordered it yet, but I am going to lay in some 12ga buck, and 223 75 grain for my Hbar.

 

HTH, BTW, I found this site through AR15.com, and it is without a doubt, the best site for the Saigas smoothbores, I have been just browsing, but registered today, I am also an owner, with a 12, 20, and 410, however, I do have the 20 with 12 mags up on an auction site, cause I dont need all three.

[Bvamp 604]

tell your friends about us, frick.

 

welcome aboard.

[Wombat 0]

shipping could be flat rate postal

[TacticalResponse 0]

Hey guys is this the stuff you are looking for?

 

HOA8627

Manufacturer HORNADY AMMO [Website]

Man. Number 8627

Title HORNADY 12GA TAP LT MAG 00BK

Description HORNADY 8627 BUCKSHOT AMMO TACTICAL 12 GAUGE OO BUCK RED HULL LIGHT MAGNUM DESIGNED FOR PUMP OR SEMI-AUTO SHOTGUNS 5 RNDS PER BOX 50 BXS PER CASE

 

 

I can move it for $3.25 a box, in orders of at least 20 boxes, shipping could be flat rate postal, or UPS, your choice, either way, I would charge only the actual cost of shipping.

 

Cases of 50 could probably go for a little less, and 250 rounds of buck doesnt seem like too many for an S12, and if the govmint doesnt want you to have it, I find it all the more pleasing to help get it to you.

 

Also, my distributors list most other TAP products, with the exception of the 6.8 stuff, which I can also get a reasonable prices.

 

They put no restrictions on this that I know of, though I havent ordered it yet, but I am going to lay in some 12ga buck, and 223 75 grain for my Hbar.

 

HTH, BTW, I found this site through AR15.com, and it is without a doubt, the best site for the Saigas smoothbores, I have been just browsing, but registered today, I am also an owner, with a 12, 20, and 410, however, I do have the 20 with 12 mags up on an auction site, cause I dont need all three.

 

 

 

Because of some changes to my house I currently don't have a bench for any of my reloading equipment so I've been buying the high velocity Hornady and estate ammo. Looking at some of Hodgdon's new shotgun loading data on their web page I can see that I need to load my own shotshells again. Using Hodgdon Londshot at 1500 FPS I can have the same pressures that commerical ammo produces at 1200 FPS. If I go to 1400 FPS LEO calls this low recoil high velocity ammo. I rarely ever read about it, and I've never seen this ammo for sale to the public before. I've only found low recoil low velocity ammo for sale in the past. The Hodgdon site takes some loads all the way up to 1585 FPS with acceptable pressures. Great for high flying birds. There are also quite a few competion shooters winning matches with this powder. Not much kick when you use it at around 1200 FPS compared to other loads in the same catagory.

Edited January 13, 2006 by TacticalResponse

[Roadkill45 0]

too bad they don't make any in 20 gauge

[TacticalResponse 0]

too bad they don't make any in 20 gauge

 

 

 

You need to get into reloading so you don't have to worry about companies that Would'nt sell to civilians like us. If you get into reloading you can save a lot of money on ammo, plus you can use the low pressure high velocity powders. These shells just are not available to the public. Some people mix different sizes of buck in the same shell. There are all sorts of different things that you can do. Load your own! Screw LEO only companies. This really is about your right to keep and bear arms. Ammo restrictions are bogus.

Edited January 13, 2006 by TacticalResponse