Numerous FTFe issues in mag left full overnight.

[gunfun 3,931]

It's funny too, because those types invariably post that you should move to a simpler gun with something like triple the moving parts, such as an 870 or a mossy 500. Those are good guns and all, but not the failure proof things they are hyped up to be. The amount of online content related to problems that 10 seconds of googling can find for either of those should tell you something. 

 

Both of those rely on meat pistons to do more steps in a particular way, and that is their primary weakness. They also are  a lot more complex to maintain and re-assemble. There isn't much of a way to put an AK based shotgun together that won't be immediately apparent if you did something wrong. Not so for pumpers. Those are a chore to get apart, and another chore to get back together, and you can easily get an extractor or lifter or whatever in there crooked and have a sneaky problem you won't notice until it matters. People will say some variant of " but that's the end user... with better training" The end user is always the most critical part of any system. The less dependant a system is on him the better. And if more training is applied to either system what gets you more total proficiency? 25 hours of use and practice with an S12 or 25 hours with an 870? I am going to bet that the first guy will fumble way less, and hit targets way faster. All he has to learn is how to get a mag in right, and how to hold a gun. No worries about pumping fully, holding the gun upright, not getting your thumb caught in the lifter......

 

Where would we be if you took 3 hours of the tube feeding practice for every 870 user needs and applied it to function testing/ refining an S12, instead? (And most won't really need it anyway.)

Edited September 2, 2015 by GunFun

[Hawk451 2,230]

Meat pistons, funny, we used to call pilots 'meat servos' when I worked in aviation.

 

If you depend on it for personal defense, you are a fool.

 

I guess I'll consider myself a competent, confident, well-armed fool, then.  

[gunfun 3,931]

Meat pistons, funny, we used to call pilots 'meat servos' when I worked in aviation.

 

If you depend on it for personal defense, you are a fool.

 

I guess I'll consider myself a competent, confident, well-armed fool, then.  

 

That was actually the phrase I was looking for, but my fat hardrive wasn't working properly. I probably need to reformat.

[boomka 40]

It's funny too, because those types invariably post that you should move to a simpler gun with something like triple the moving parts, such as an 870 or a mossy 500. Those are good guns and all, but not the failure proof things they are hyped up to be. The amount of online content related to problems that 10 seconds of googling can find for either of those should tell you something. 

Well this took an interesting turn for me personally.

Many many years ago ( decades in fact ) I took apart my dads 16ga 870 Wingmaster, an incredible beautiful gun. Much to my surprise I found seemingly dozens of parts in the trigger group alone. A few years later I discovered what an assault weapon was and was immediately struck by it's utter simplicity inside, I felt I could make most of the parts in my garage if I wanted to. The first time I opened up an AK I nearly wept a manly weep at the bronze age simplicity of it all. All this eventually led me to this forum and this interesting set of posts :-)

[csspecs 1,987]

 Most of the semi auto shotguns on the market are ridiculous, dozens of little parts that all need to work perfectly to function.

 

I have a chinese copy ithaca bottom ejecting pump.. Those are fairly simple for a pump gun..

I'll admit that the AK action takes simple to an extreme.. There are only a handful of things that can go wrong with it, one of the biggest problems are factory screw ups like blocked gas ports and roughly machined parts. If the factory did as good a job as Molot did with the Vepr shotguns and rifles the Saiga would not have a reputation of a expensive play thing.

[gunfun 3,931]

Yes. Pretty much that.

 

The thing is there is so little going on, something is either obviously wrong or it is fine. If it is wrong, it might take a hammer or a drill to get it right, but the fix will be simple, and done. There are no hidden problems to sneak up on you. If it has a problem running weak ammo, it will be a consistent problem easy to recognize. The fixes are known. Any other problem is very rare. Most of the other problems are usually a variant of " I was modifying it/installing parts and now something is very wrong. What did I do wrong? .... Oh. that was dumb. Thanks guys for the easy fix."