expeditionx 1 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 How does a pump-action shotgun end up classified as a semi-auto, as far as import restrictions are concerned? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SinistralRifleman 0 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 What gun are you referring to? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) What gun are you referring to? Any foreign pump action shot-gun is suppose to be legally limited to a magazine capacity of 5 rounds. But the wording in the law is semi-auto. Somehow pump-actions are classified as semi-auto for legal considerations in foreign imported guns. Edited February 22, 2006 by expeditionx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 no foreign shotgun may have more than 5 round capacity. pump or semiauto. yes, if you put a tube extension on your benelli in your squad car, you are a felon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SinistralRifleman 0 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 no foreign shotgun may have more than 5 round capacity. pump or semiauto. yes, if you put a tube extension on your benelli in your squad car, you are a felon. Can you cite the case law, ruling, or executive order defining this? I know Benelli stopped selling extensions for their semi-autos because people were installing them, making a non-sporting configuration, without adding the appropriate US parts. Get enough US parts on your M1, M2, M3, or M4 and it can be configured however you like. It seems a semi-auto shotgun with a magazine over 5 rounds is deemed "non-sporting", and this would be the reason 8 round saiga mags aren't being imported. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 it is in the 922 importation laws. Ill attempt to find it, as i am not at home, and the copies of the laws out there are not saved on this hard drive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 here is the import tax stamp explanations. look on the top of page four. http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf it says specifically that the import tax stamp you get to import firearms will NOT include shotguns that accept more than 5 rounds, and also shotguns that are under such and such length, as well as shotguns with folding or detachable stocks. it references to the following two laws: 18 USC 925 d 3 26 USC 5844 read those two sections of the law for details on what the tax stamp paperword is talking about. I also posted and pinned a bunch of links to the gun laws and other things a while back with direct links to government sites. you can find more bullshit laws there. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=4206 Ive gotten a lot of greif from forum members over the last couple years because I do not post the copy of the law or where it is from. that posting was to shut everyone up that was riding me about not doing it. I might not always post the actual letter of the law, but I am usually 100% on when it comes to remembering things that I read. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Everytime an anti-gun congressman makes a stupid statement like "the gun industry is out of control its virtually unregulated", I see all the hundreds of pages of legislative text start to flash forth in the back of my mind. I could probably build a two story house with all the pages of existing gun regulations in Congress alone. If you add in all state, county, and city ordinances in the U.S. I could use the paper from those to build a board walk from the two story house to the beach 100 yards away. I remember reading in American history how the framers of the Constitution needed to add in the Bill of Rights so that many delegates would finally agree to sign off on it. The Bill of Rights is mentioned in every history book I have seen as a group of individual freedoms ( not collective ). Its amazing how much regulation surrounds the Bill of Rights. From what ive read in history books, the constitution allows an implied power to federal judges to rule an act of congress as unconstitutional. I guess thats why the anti-gun heros of the left are soo against the new Supreme Court justice Alito. He stands against the 1986 machine gun ban openly. All it takes is one Federal judge to rule against the constitutionality the 1968 Gun Control Act, so that the act is eliminated. I dont see the current Congress doing anything radical like changing it themselves, but they might not fight a federal judge pulling the plug on the GCA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SinistralRifleman 0 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 ... I guess thats why the anti-gun heros of the left are soo against the new Supreme Court justice Alito. He stands against the 1986 machine gun ban openly. All it takes is one Federal judge to rule against the constitutionality the 1968 Gun Control Act, so that the act is eliminated. Now you've given me something to dream about! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 the only gun laws should be WHO can possess them. no crazies no crooks no foreigners no violent types no children and WHERE you cant have them no courts no bars no schools no shopping malls Maybe the cities and areas that had all these laws pushed through should have NO GUNS WITHIN CITY LIMITS posted too. (then you think crime rate will go DOWN? yer kidding me right?) THAT should be the gun laws. the rest of it is incredible to me that it even exists. I could not believe my eyes when I was a kid reading this shit. And MORE passed since then. Now, I am just plain pissed off about it. Its not right. (and I am 100% sure illegal) start making guns IN the police department. then nobody else wil have them. wear level 3 body armor that is COMFORTABLE to work in all day. all police start carrying full combat armor in thier squad car with penalty of suspension for not having it. I cant see what is such a big deal about even a 22LR machine gun. why cant just those be totally legal? why the fuck are suppressors over a certain length NOT legal in a lot of states? why? so I can piss the whole town off whenever I shoot 9,000 rounds in an hour? Why does this part or that part make my gun so much more dangerous? *I* am not the one robbing people. Why the fuck am I being penalised? I didnt do a damn thing. I guess Im saying that the gun laws dont make any sense to me, thats all. I will follow the law because I am an American and that is what you are supposed to do, but I SURE as shit dont like them, and will voice my opinion on the matter at every opportunity. The right lawyer could very well have them all tossed out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 So what part of the law, ruling, or interpretation is it that allows us to add "non-sporting" features to imported guns as long as they have as they only havbe 10 imported parts off the list? It's in Title 27 CFR Section 478.39 An important distinction: The law DENYS us guns with non-sporting features that are made from 10 or more imported parts. It doesn't ALLOW guns that have less than 10 foreign parts to have non-sporting features. It doesn't mention or apply to domestic firearms, that is, firearms made with less than 10 foreign parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 So what part of the law, ruling, or interpretation is it that allows us to add "non-sporting" features to imported guns as long as they have as they only havbe 10 imported parts off the list? It's in Title 27 CFR Section 478.39 An important distinction: The law DENYS us guns with non-sporting features that are made from 10 or more imported parts. It doesn't ALLOW guns that have less than 10 foreign parts to have non-sporting features. It doesn't mention or apply to domestic firearms, that is, firearms made with less than 10 foreign parts. Typo: More than 10 foreign parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 wait. I have to ask it. If my friggin gun is stamped MADE IN USA and I put enough parts in it to make it uncompliant, its no longer made in america? I cant think of why I would need to do that, but Im guessing it is a two way street? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) wait. I have to ask it. If my friggin gun is stamped MADE IN USA and I put enough parts in it to make it uncompliant, its no longer made in america? I cant think of why I would need to do that, but Im guessing it is a two way street? Thats the basis of buying a U.S. made AK receiver like from Global Trades and adding in imported parts from an AK parts kit. I still havnt figured out how the FN tactical shotgun has an extended tube magazine from the factory, yet is imported. Edited February 22, 2006 by expeditionx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 ok, what if I have an old american made gun, need parts for it because its broken, and they only make the parts in china. or even better. what would happen if a major american company had all thier parts made in china. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) ok, what if I have an old american made gun, need parts for it because its broken, and they only make the parts in china. Cant get Chinese semi-auto parts because of Clinton's 1990s political favor to gun control groups. You know as well as I that any foreign control parts on the official list of 20 parts cant be exceeded by 10 specifically on semiauto shotguns or rifles, if you want to have unsporting add ons like flash hider. If I bought a Bushmaster AR and swapped out 11 legal control parts for greek I suddenly couldnt have a flash hider, pistol grip, or the ability to use regular AR mags (which would be a headache to fix alone). Edited February 23, 2006 by expeditionx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SinistralRifleman 0 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 the only gun laws should be WHO can possess them. no crazies no crooks no foreigners no violent types no children and WHERE you cant have them no courts no bars no schools no shopping malls The places you listed as being the places where they should be prohibited are the most common places active shooter situations happen, and firearms are already prohibited in those places in almost every state. It's in Title 27 CFR Section 478.39 An important distinction: The law DENYS us guns with non-sporting features that are made from 10 or more imported parts. It doesn't ALLOW guns that have less than 10 foreign parts to have non-sporting features. It doesn't mention or apply to domestic firearms, that is, firearms made with less than 10 foreign parts. If I understand this correctly the previously listed parts of the USC prohibit the importation of firearms with non-sporting features. Once they are in the country we are free to modify them into "non-sporting configurations" so long as they use less than 10 imported parts. I wonder what parts are counted on a Benelli M1-M4 series gun? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 (edited) Edited February 23, 2006 by expeditionx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 (edited) A little history for you For those of us who actively collected stuff during the late '80s and early '90s, we remember the period of May 1989 to Nov 1989 when you could buy a neutered Chicom AK and then reconfigure it to an 'unsporting' configuration. Why, because the executive order by Papa Bush only banned importation on features in May - it did not ban re-configuration once it was in the US. When Congress followed his lead in Nov of that year and ATF made it rulings, it ended re-configuration of imported (receiver) firearms by making 'assembly' illegal. Shortly thereafter, you had some companies start to making US receivers since US guns were exempt from the import ban. This existed for for a little over three years. For reference purposes, the 10-part rule was implemented in 1993 to address the BWEST AK receivers and the Entreprise FAL receivers that people were using to manufacture guns out of entire imported parts kits with US receivers. Up to that point in history the serial numbered part and country of origin determined whether or not it was a US firearm. If the reciever was US, the gun was US. This made it relatively easy to obtain prohibited firearms, so the 10-part rule was created by the ATF. This effectively stopped assembly of US assembled unsporting guns because the 1994 AWB ban came so fast that no one really tooled up to manufacture FCG and furniture kits to address the 10 part rule for imported parts kits. Fast forward to about 1997 and companies started tooling up to produce AK and FAL parts to re-convert 'sporting' imported firearms to be able to accept a pistol grip. But all the other features were a no-no until 2004 when the AWB expired. Now we have lots of options - HKs, FALs, AKs, and much more. Peace out - Edited February 23, 2006 by RDSWriter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 wait. I have to ask it. If my friggin gun is stamped MADE IN USA and I put enough parts in it to make it uncompliant, its no longer made in america? I cant think of why I would need to do that, but Im guessing it is a two way street? Thats the basis of buying a U.S. made AK receiver like from Global Trades and adding in imported parts from an AK parts kit. I still havnt figured out how the FN tactical shotgun has an extended tube magazine from the factory, yet is imported. According to CDNN's catalog the FN tactical shottie is made in the US so that would explain the extended tube. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 According to CDNN's catalog the FN tactical shottie is made in the US so that would explain the extended tube. Ive heard from several sources that these are imported. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted February 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 The one on the cdnn online catelog is a pump action that looks like the winchester 1300. The tactical in the picture from FN looks similar to and uses the action of the winchester x2. I know Winchester is owned by Herstal which I think owns FN too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 The one on the cdnn online catelog is a pump action that looks like the winchester 1300.The tactical in the picture from FN looks similar to and uses the action of the winchester x2. I know Winchester is owned by Herstal which I think owns FN too. You're right. Page 59 shows the FN tactical pump for $299 with the large caption it is "made in the Winchester Connecticut plant". Below it is a HK Fabarms semi auto with a capacity of 5+1. My bad. It's terrible getting old........and senile. Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 whats going to happen now that they are pulling the plug on winchestor? anybody know? sorta WAY off topic. slightly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Winchester is only pulling the plug on certain models. How much do you want to bet, that with the popularity of cowboy action shooting--- they will return very soon with the same models made offshore? Maybe Izhmash or China? G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 --> QUOTE(G O B @ Feb 23 2006, 08:20 PM) Winchester is only pulling the plug on certain models. How much do you want to bet, that with the popularity of cowboy action shooting--- they will return very soon with the same models made offshore? Maybe Izhmash or China? G O B My money is riding with you. They'll import clones and pocket the huge profits. We are great at importing goods and exporting jobs........like port security!!! FUBAR'd deluxe!!! Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PvtPyle 0 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 FNH stands for Fabrique National Herstal. It is one big company. Most of their guns either have parts made overseas, or ARE made overseas and converted here to US compliant designs. But remember that they have a HUGE plant in SC that makes a bunch of stuff. Winchester was sold to a Japanese company, and FNH will retain rights to several designs, but not the cowboy action shooting lines. They are focusing directly on the military/LEO communities. I think the days of the quality Winchester weapons have come to an end. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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