20 Round mags and not running afoul of BATF

[Marlin94ss 0]

I am almost ready to pull the trigger on a Saiga 308 (pun intended ). I would also like to buy a few of the 20 round magazines. Reading some of the previous threads on the mags has left me a little confused about whether other things have to be changed out to stay in compliance with firearms import regulations. Since the mags are US made, I didn't think there would be any issue in buying them? I have never bought a foreign made semiauto so if someone could sum up the pitfalls and how to avoid them, I'd appreciate it. Thanks,

 

Matt

[macbeau 902]

To be importable and acheive "legitimate sporting use" status, the Saiga family of weapons in imported from Russia with:

1. A stock that does not fold or require the use of a seperate pistol grip.

2. A 10 round or less magazine.

3. No pistol grip seperate from the butt-stock.

4. No bayonet lug or attachment point.

5. No muzzle device (Specifically - a flash hider / flash suppressor).

 

If you change any of the above, you change it's imported status and you have to play the "10-or-less" parts game. By using a magazine (regardless of where it is made), it would no longer be importable in that condition. Just adding a U.S. made mag body and floorplate only removes 2 imported parts. On a S-308, you need to change at least 5 or 6 (depending on whether you want to use a muzzle device) for their U.S. made equivelents.

In essence, you have to make the rifle "qualify" as being U.S. made by removing enough imported parts and using U.S. made replacements.

 

Hope this helps.

[O.S.O.K. 0]

If you add a 20 round mag, it becomes subject to ruling 922r which means that it can't have any more than 10 countable imported parts, which are:

muzzle device

barrel

handguard (s)

front trunion

receiver

magazine body

mag floor plate

mag follower

bolt carrier

bolt

gas piston

trigger

disconnector

hammer

pistol grip

buttstock

 

16 total countable.

 

Your unmodified rifle with the 20 round fbmg mag has the barrel, handguard, trunion, receiver, mag follower, bolt carrier, bolt, gas piston, trigger, disonnector, hammer, buttstock. So, it has 12 countable imported parts. To be compliant, you would need to replace two of these.

 

The easiest would be to replace the gas piston and hammer. The rest of the fcg is totaly unique.

 

The better way to go is to do a pistol grip conversion - which isn't really hard but results in a more ak looking rifle. That results in a new, us-made fire control group, buttstock and pistol grip, eliminating 4 of the above parts (pistol grip wasn't counted).

[BattleRifleG3 16]

That is correct and you will have a better trigger for it.

 

A no-gunsmithing option would be a US made handguard and buttstock. There aren't very many sources for those out there, but I think I can hook you up with a nice wooden set.

[macbeau 902]

If you add a 20 round mag, it becomes subject to ruling 922r which means that it can't have any more than 10 countable imported parts, which are:

muzzle device

barrel

handguard (s)

front trunion

receiver

magazine body

mag floor plate

mag follower

bolt carrier

bolt

gas piston

trigger

disconnector

hammer

pistol grip

buttstock

 

16 total countable.

 

Your unmodified rifle with the 20 round fbmg mag has the barrel, handguard, trunion, receiver, mag follower, bolt carrier, bolt, gas piston, trigger, disonnector, hammer, buttstock. So, it has 12 countable imported parts. To be compliant, you would need to replace two of these.

 

The easiest would be to replace the gas piston and hammer. The rest of the fcg is totaly unique.

 

The better way to go is to do a pistol grip conversion - which isn't really hard but results in a more ak looking rifle. That results in a new, us-made fire control group, buttstock and pistol grip, eliminating 4 of the above parts (pistol grip wasn't counted).

 

On a S-308, you need to change at least 5 or 6 (depending on whether you want to use a muzzle device) for their U.S. made equivelents.

I stand corrected. O.S.O.K. is right. If you just want to use these in a mostly stock rifle, you need to swap out two more imported parts for U.S. made ones off of the list of parts he posted.

I guess I am just too quick to assume that everyone wants to do a full "AK-ish" conversion. I suppose I should read the question a little more closely.

[Marlin94ss 0]

Thank you very much for the replies. So if I understand this correctly, I can get by, and be legal, by merely changing to a US made stock and pistol grip (AK style - much like the ones listed in publications such as Cheaper than Dirt)? I don't have huge funds to invest so the least expensive options would be the best for me.

[OpFlash 0]

Not questioning the accuracy of what has been said because I don't know any better, but it just doesn't seem right to me for this law to govern what size mags you can use if you don't change the rifle itself. To me a rifle designed to use detachable magazines is a unit seperate and apart from any magazine that you should choose to use. So would it be illegal to posess higher cap mags if they weren't in the rifle?

[Marlin94ss 0]

Not questioning the accuracy of what has been said because I don't know any better, but it just doesn't seem right to me for this law to govern what size mags you can use if you don't change the rifle itself. To me a rifle designed to use detachable magazines is a unit seperate and apart from any magazine that you should choose to use. So would it be illegal to posess higher cap mags if they weren't in the rifle?

 

I agree with your logic on this - Detachable magazines separate from the actual rifle. Has BATF ever made a pronouncement on this - exactly?

[G O B 3,516]

3 of the "parts" are the mag body,follower, and floorplate. The 20 rd mags have a forign follower. You only need to change 2 other parts to be cool. When you put the 20 rd mag in you are "constructing" an american made gun. When you pull the mag out and put a russian 8rd mag in you are "constructing" a forign made gun,however since it is an 8 rd mag it is legal.

You cannot "construct" an illegal gun with you'r parts on hand,as every time you insert the 20 rd mag the gun is automatically legal!

Sit in you'r easy chair and swap mags as quick as you can and with some practice maybe you can "construct" as fast as Tromix!

[O.S.O.K. 0]

-->

QUOTE(G O B @ Jan 23 2007, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You cannot "construct" an illegal gun with you'r parts on hand,as every time you insert the 20 rd mag the gun is automatically legal!

Sit in you'r easy chair and swap mags as quick as you can and with some practice maybe you can "construct" as fast as Tromix!

 

You most certainly do create an illegal firearm when you insert the 20 round mag into a stock saiga 308. This is because you turn your "sporting rifle" into an "assault rifle" by puting an "over 10 round" mag in, and it becomes subject to the 922r ruling and you have to worry about the parts count.

 

As to wether or not just having the magazines on hand takes you afoul of 922r, it shouldn't but I don't know.

 

If you want the easiest way to create a legal rifle when using the 20 rounders, get a nice stock set from BattlerifleG3 - that'll be drop-in easy and you'll be stylin too.

[lazlong 0]

Are the mag bodies U.S. made? I thought they might have been U.S. designed, but made elsewhere. I didn't bother to check into it because my trigger group, butt-stock, and pistol grip bring me into compliance. The floor-plate brings me over compliance, and the body (if U.S. made) brings the U.S. parts count even higher.

[rwsackett 0]

Yes, 20 Rd. mag bodies (as well as floor-plate you mentioned) are US made.

[G O B 3,516]

OSAK Read the (&^$%%^#^$#@ post dude.

[O.S.O.K. 0]

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(G O B @ Jan 24 2007, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OSAK Read the (&^$%%^#^$#@ post dude.

 

I did - and again. Not to be critical but you weren't very clear. So you are saying that you need to make the parts switch and then you can change the mags out without worry? I guess so.

 

And it's O.S.O.K. not "OSAK".

Edited January 25, 2007 by O.S.O.K.

[G O B 3,516]

Cool. G O B = Grumpy Old Bastard.