Kerry opens his mouth yet again

[rwsackett 0]

John Kerry loves to hate on us... especially when we are at war. Isn't it treason to go overseas and insult your country during a time of war? What a loser- in every way possible!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Flush the Johns!

 

Fuggin Jane Fonda wannabe...

[G O B 3,516]

Consider the source. If kerry is cutting us down, the world will have ---a better opinion of us!

[BlenderWizard 12]

[Gaddis 1,689]

He's just pissed because he got his ass handed to him on a silver platter by the American voting public that time he tried running for election.

 

I'm still glad the douchebag lost. Serves his un-patriotic ass right.

 

And I only hope the same for Hillary in a year. She'll cut down this country every chance she gets to appease any jealous third world shithole (plus the entire European continent) if she thinks it will give her some brownie points with them.

 

They really shoud bring back the firing squad for trators.

[rwsackett 0]

He's just pissed because he got his ass handed to him on a silver platter by the American voting public that time he tried running for election.

 

I'm still glad the douchebag lost. Serves his un-patriotic ass right.

 

And I only hope the same for Hillary in a year. She'll cut down this country every chance she gets to appease any jealous third world shithole (plus the entire European continent) if she thinks it will give her some brownie points with them.

 

They really shoud bring back the firing squad for trators.

 

 

+ 1!

[DaGroaner 2]

He's just pissed because he got his ass handed to him on a silver platter by the American voting public that time he tried running for election.

 

I'm still glad the douchebag lost. Serves his un-patriotic ass right.

 

And I only hope the same for Hillary in a year. She'll cut down this country every chance she gets to appease any jealous third world shithole (plus the entire European continent) if she thinks it will give her some brownie points with them.

 

They really shoud bring back the firing squad for trators.

 

 

John O'Neill is the man - back in the day and especially now. He will make sure Kerry's past haunts him for the rest of his political life and rightly so. Had Kerry ran for President again he wouldn't have been able to talk about anything but the Swiftboat vets... AGAIN.

Edited January 29, 2007 by DaGroaner

[joelrod47 373]

DEFEAT_HILLARY___08_CARD.doc

This is a Word file........You can get some of those business card sheets for print-outs, run 'em off, and join the fun......I've passed out hundreds of them so far.....

That bitch just can't get even nominated, much less elected........

He's just pissed because he got his ass handed to him on a silver platter by the American voting public that time he tried running for election.

 

I'm still glad the douchebag lost. Serves his un-patriotic ass right.

 

And I only hope the same for Hillary in a year. She'll cut down this country every chance she gets to appease any jealous third world shithole (plus the entire European continent) if she thinks it will give her some brownie points with them.

 

They really shoud bring back the firing squad for trators.

Edited January 30, 2007 by Jeaux E

[shaneman153a 39]

He's just pissed because he got his ass handed to him on a silver platter by the American voting public that time he tried running for election.

 

I'm still glad the douchebag lost. Serves his un-patriotic ass right.

 

And I only hope the same for Hillary in a year. She'll cut down this country every chance she gets to appease any jealous third world shithole (plus the entire European continent) if she thinks it will give her some brownie points with them.

 

They really shoud bring back the firing squad for trators.

 

Exactly, why rake your neighbor's yard when you have just as many leaves in your own. Fuck 'em.

 

I'd like to see a non-lethal firing squad for that bitch. like 2 guys with tazers, 2 guys with bean bag rounds (10rd s-12's), 2 guys with teargas (the kind for bears), and then two guys just rush the traitor with collapsible batons. Man I drink too much.

Edited January 29, 2007 by shaneman153a

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

He's just pissed because he got his ass handed to him on a silver platter by the American voting public that time he tried running for election.

 

I'm still glad the douchebag lost. Serves his un-patriotic ass right.

 

And I only hope the same for Hillary in a year. She'll cut down this country every chance she gets to appease any jealous third world shithole (plus the entire European continent) if she thinks it will give her some brownie points with them.

 

They really shoud bring back the firing squad for trators.

 

Exactly, why rake your neighbor's yard when you have just as many leaves in your own. Fuck 'em.

 

I'd like to see a non-lethal firing squad for that bitch. like 2 guys with tazers, 2 guys with bean bag rounds (10rd s-12's), 2 guys with teargas (the kind for bears), and then two guys just rush the traitor with collapsible batons. Man I drink too much.

HELL YEAH SHANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SuAside 2]

@ USpride:

 

well, isn't Kerry right in saying that the US is "an international pariah"? it sure looks like that from this side of the pound.

 

your big lucky break is that you guys have such a big stick behind the door, so nobody dares to give you too much backlash (except some more extreme countries).

 

you have the dollar, but Bush is doing his absolute best to devaluate it until no bank in the world will be willing to loan the USA anymore money than they already have. when that happens, the world economy will collapse, with or without a strong Euro. luckily that wont happen, unless the coming presidents act the same way as Bush is today.

you have the corporate power, but that too is starting to slip. the automobile industry is a telltale sign of things to come. either the US starts to get in touch with what's going on and adapts, or your future wont be quite as bright as you hope it'll be.

you have the army, world's biggest & best (but also quite unguided in some areas it seems).

 

these three things are your stick behind the door, that keeps other countries in check. but your country has indeed lost a lot of the political credit and esteem it had built over many years (as Kerry says). unlike what some of you wrote above, Kerry, Al Gore, etc, have a lot more respect in foreign countries than G. W. Bush does.

 

you know, it scares the other nations shitless when a man commanding the most powerful army in the world starts to speak as if he's on a religious crusade guided by a divine hand, while what he appears to be doing is lying to get people's attention off domestic problems (and probably fill his own pockets while at it).

 

so, maybe Kerry is indeed full of shit (i don't know, nor care, i was never a Kerry-fan), but the part you just quoted is indeed quite a correct assessment about how the world views the USA.

 

 

@ shaneman153a:

 

"why rake your neighbor's yard when you have just as many leaves in your own."

 

isn't that quite ironic coming from a american Bush fan?

 

 

@ Gaddis:

 

as for polititians having to stfu when a country is at war? not at all. this has nothing to do with betrayal. he is more of a patriot trying to fight for what he thinks is right, than the average person in the street that doesnt care either way.

 

i do agree that the army should stfu in public and only talk about the war through appropriate channels, but that does not apply to polititians and citizens.

 

you fight for rights, such as free speech, yet you can't handle a politian giving his personal opinion?

 

 

 

 

PS:

 

this isn't meant to provoke you guys, so don't get pissed off at me, alright?

 

PPS:

 

rest assured, i don't want to see no Hillary fucking Clinton as a president anymore than you guys do.

 

PPPS:

 

please don't lynch me!

[DaGroaner 2]

@ USpride:

 

well, isn't Kerry right in saying that the US is "an international pariah"? it sure looks like that from this side of the pound.

 

your big lucky break is that you guys have such a big stick behind the door, so nobody dares to give you too much backlash (except some more extreme countries).

 

you have the dollar, but Bush is doing his absolute best to devaluate it until no bank in the world will be willing to loan the USA anymore money than they already have. when that happens, the world economy will collapse, with or without a strong Euro. luckily that wont happen, unless the coming presidents act the same way as Bush is today.

you have the corporate power, but that too is starting to slip. the automobile industry is a telltale sign of things to come. either the US starts to get in touch with what's going on and adapts, or your future wont be quite as bright as you hope it'll be.

you have the army, world's biggest & best (but also quite unguided in some areas it seems).

 

these three things are your stick behind the door, that keeps other countries in check. but your country has indeed lost a lot of the political credit and esteem it had built over many years (as Kerry says). unlike what some of you wrote above, Kerry, Al Gore, etc, have a lot more respect in foreign countries than G. W. Bush does.

 

you know, it scares the other nations shitless when a man commanding the most powerful army in the world starts to speak as if he's on a religious crusade guided by a divine hand, while what he appears to be doing is lying to get people's attention off domestic problems (and probably fill his own pockets while at it).

 

so, maybe Kerry is indeed full of shit (i don't know, nor care, i was never a Kerry-fan), but the part you just quoted is indeed quite a correct assessment about how the world views the USA.

 

 

@ shaneman153a:

 

"why rake your neighbor's yard when you have just as many leaves in your own."

 

isn't that quite ironic coming from a american Bush fan?

 

 

@ Gaddis:

 

as for polititians having to stfu when a country is at war? not at all. this has nothing to do with betrayal. he is more of a patriot trying to fight for what he thinks is right, than the average person in the street that doesnt care either way.

 

i do agree that the army should stfu in public and only talk about the war through appropriate channels, but that does not apply to polititians and citizens.

 

you fight for rights, such as free speech, yet you can't handle a politian giving his personal opinion?

 

 

 

 

PS:

 

this isn't meant to provoke you guys, so don't get pissed off at me, alright?

 

PPS:

 

rest assured, i don't want to see no Hillary fucking Clinton as a president anymore than you guys do.

 

PPPS:

 

please don't lynch me!

 

 

What you failed to calculate into the Kerry equation is the fact that he LIED about "atrocities" that he falsely accused our troops of in Vietnam during Senate testimony. The guy is a total POS for doing that. Now he accuses our military of terrorizing women and children in the night... and he wasn't talking about Janet Reno's FBI either. Why you would give this guy's words any credibility whatsoever is beyond me. As for Europe, who fucking cares? All the non-muslims over there will be headless within two decades. Fuck those losers.

Edited January 29, 2007 by DaGroaner

[SuAside 2]

What you failed to calculate into the Kerry equation is the fact that he LIED about "atrocities" that he falsely accused our troops of in Vietnam during Senate testimony. The guy is a total POS for doing that. Now he accuses our military of terrorizing women and children in the night... and he wasn't talking about Janet Reno's FBI either. Why you would give this guy's words any credibility whatsoever is beyond me.

as said, i don't really have an opinion about the guy & i'm not gonna comment on it since i dont know enough about him. what i do know is that he has some respect in the world (possibly simply due to the fact that he is against GWB).

 

As for Europe, who fucking cares? Fuck those losers.

well, then let me thank you in name of the europeans (being one myself) for your so very kind words...

 

(and then people wonder why americans aren't popular in the world)

 

All the non-muslims over there will be headless within two decades.

what on earth could you possibly mean by that?

 

...

[DaGroaner 2]

What you failed to calculate into the Kerry equation is the fact that he LIED about "atrocities" that he falsely accused our troops of in Vietnam during Senate testimony. The guy is a total POS for doing that. Now he accuses our military of terrorizing women and children in the night... and he wasn't talking about Janet Reno's FBI either. Why you would give this guy's words any credibility whatsoever is beyond me.

as said, i don't really have an opinion about the guy & i'm not gonna comment on it since i dont know enough about him. what i do know is that he has some respect in the world (possibly simply due to the fact that he is against GWB).

 

As for Europe, who fucking cares? Fuck those losers.

well, then let me thank you in name of the europeans (being one myself) for your so very kind words...

 

(and then people wonder why americans aren't popular in the world)

 

All the non-muslims over there will be headless within two decades.

what on earth could you possibly mean by that?

 

...

 

My family immigrated to the US from Germany when I was a child and my children are the first generation of my family born in America. I have traveled extensively through Europe. When exactly was it that Europeans liked Americans? 1946? You can fool others with that BS but not me. Next? You treat our military nice because they spend lot's of money over there and that's exactly how deep it goes.

 

What on Earth huh? I guess that explains your fate.

Edited January 29, 2007 by DaGroaner

[rwsackett 0]

[

All the non-muslims over there will be headless within two decades.

 

what on earth could you possibly mean by that?

 

...

 

I really don't enjoy typing. Especially to respond to someone so hopelessly uninformed/ignorant. Personally, I believe you are here simply to stir stuff up and couldn't possibly believe what you yourself are writing. Flash: the growing muslim minority in Europe does not like you and wishes you ill will. A favored method of removing infidels- this includes other muslims- is decapitation. Surely you know this. Your reference to "being lynched" is a reprehensible attempt at humor (at least I hope it was). President Bush is fighting a war that your governments in Europe are as well- only they are aware that their populations (ie. you) are too stupid to realize what is at stake - the very survival of the way of life that all people post WWII have enjoyed. So your governments supply logistics, intelligence, and arrest terrorists that the US helps identify. Don't worry (for now) we'll do the heavy lifting.

 

Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Obviously, the last century has eluded you. Have fun if the US is no longer in a viable condition to save your sorry asses when and if WWIII breaks out in earnest.

 

The only reason that we are in massive debt is that we are willing (and unafraid) to publicly wage a war that was thrust upon us and actually stand up to a homicidal threat- that is in fact a greater threat to Europe than to us.

 

You may go by Suaside in jest, but clearly you have a real life death wish. What an ingrate.

 

Your welcome. (Feel free to respond in German... or Arabic)

[G O B 3,516]

NOTE to the rest of the world:

Do not lose sight of WHO we Americans are. We are the bastard and second sons that the old aristocracy had no use for. We are the peasents that were forced off the land to make room for sheep farms. We are the thick necked sailors, unwanted ex soldiers, whores, thieves and other assorted misfits and "undesireables" that europe and the rest of the world wanted to be rid of. We are also the ones willing to risk our lives to build a better future-even if it means working ourselves to death to do it. We are the survivors.

We are one big rowdy disfunctional family. But never forget that we are FAMILY. The effort we are devoting to wars and forign"entanglements" today is miniscule compared to what we can and HAVE done in the past.

The mess in the middle east is a WORLD problem. The general concensus in America today is to say fuck it. Nobody else is taking it serious so why should we. WE WILL PULL BACK AND TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN.

Bush is a temporary inconvienience. Had he come to power in England or Germany then he would have been another fuhrer-but in America we don't trust OURSELVES enough to let any man have that much power. (term limits need to be universal!

 

The middle east is headed for a complete meltdown of reason and order. These people are still in the dark ages of fudelism and there are no strong national identities. The tribes need to fight and kill each other untill some of them unite and form cohesive states. If Europe ans Asia are still left after that happens -so much the better. If not - oh well.

 

Whatever the USA will be here. Somehow I think the Russians and Chinese will survive also. The rest of you are on you'r own.

[Garys4598 1,065]

-->

QUOTE(G O B @ Jan 29 2007, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NOTE to the rest of the world:

Do not lose sight of WHO we Americans are. We are the bastard and second sons that the old aristocracy had no use for. We are the peasents that were forced off the land to make room for sheep farms. We are the thick necked sailors, unwanted ex soldiers, whores, thieves and other assorted misfits and "undesireables" that europe and the rest of the world wanted to be rid of. We are also the ones willing to risk our lives to build a better future-even if it means working ourselves to death to do it. We are the survivors.

We are one big rowdy disfunctional family. But never forget that we are FAMILY. The effort we are devoting to wars and forign"entanglements" today is miniscule compared to what we can and HAVE done in the past.

The mess in the middle east is a WORLD problem. The general concensus in America today is to say fuck it. Nobody else is taking it serious so why should we. WE WILL PULL BACK AND TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN.

Bush is a temporary inconvienience. Had he come to power in England or Germany then he would have been another fuhrer-but in America we don't trust OURSELVES enough to let any man have that much power. (term limits need to be universal!

 

The middle east is headed for a complete meltdown of reason and order. These people are still in the dark ages of fudelism and there are no strong national identities. The tribes need to fight and kill each other untill some of them unite and form cohesive states. If Europe ans Asia are still left after that happens -so much the better. If not - oh well.

 

Whatever the USA will be here. Somehow I think the Russians and Chinese will survive also. The rest of you are on you'r own.

 

Friggen awesomely well said G O B!!!!

 

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

[SuAside 2]

My family immigrated to the US from Germany when I was a child and my children are the first generation of my family born in America. I have traveled extensively through Europe. When exactly was it that Europeans liked Americans? 1946? You can fool others with that BS but not me.

we liked you just fine under Clinton. american popularity was at an alltime high in the last 25 years under his presidency, i think.

 

Next? You treat our military nice because they spend lot's of money over there and that's exactly how deep it goes.

me? i'm not even german, so i don't see how exactly it matter that your army spends money overthere.

 

What on Earth huh? I guess that explains your fate.

yes, what on earth indeed. you believe that in 2 decades the muslims will have taken over Europe and going door by door to cut off the heads of non-believers?

 

where does this angst come from?

 

i have arab family (my father remarried with a morrocan woman) and i'm an army reservist. i do think i have a firsthand view on the current European situation.

 

is my stephmom going to cut off my head? unlikely. who is going to cut off my head then, the random arab in the street? just as unlikely. the criminal youths? they might steal from me, but cutting off my head is a bit too far. so the brainwashed mofos in the few extremist mosques? perhaps they'll blow up things, shoot people, it's possible, but going door to door cutting off heads? yes, that's terribly likely to happen. ok then, foreign forces? yeah, of course, i see the entire Middle East bond together to assault Europe in the hope to chop off everyone's heads.

 

do i need to add [sarcasm]-tags or can you figure it out by yourself?

 

even if somehow (like by divine intervention) muslims got the upper hand in Europe, why would they cut off people's heads for fucks sake...

 

Especially to respond to someone so hopelessly uninformed/ignorant. Personally, I believe you are here simply to stir stuff up and couldn't possibly believe what you yourself are writing. Flash: the growing muslim minority in Europe does not like you and wishes you ill will. A favored method of removing infidels- this includes other muslims- is decapitation. Surely you know this. Your reference to "being lynched" is a reprehensible attempt at humor (at least I hope it was).

the muslims are a very small minority here, and the extremist muslims are a small minority within an already small minority. do you really think all muslims are out to cut off your or my head because i dont believe that Allah is the one true god?

 

i know muslims first hand. hell, they're in my family and i've traveled to many countries around the globe.

 

what do you hope to gain by this hatemongering? i don't fear my neighbour, do you?

 

President Bush is fighting a war that your governments in Europe are as well- only they are aware that their populations (ie. you) are too stupid to realize what is at stake - the very survival of the way of life that all people post WWII have enjoyed. So your governments supply logistics, intelligence, and arrest terrorists that the US helps identify. Don't worry (for now) we'll do the heavy lifting.

you mean you fight wars against people you trained, funded and then betrayed?

 

bin laden you trained & supplied. hussein you even gave chemical weapons to and now you're saying he was dispicable for using them? stop being so goddamned twofaced.

 

i want to believe you're in it for the good fight, but seeing what's happening, that's quite hard to believe.

 

you had a chance to overthrow hussein once before and the political climate was right at the time. you didnt. now you're back there under false pretenses, while fighting a war that'll cost both you and the civilians dearly. it's not hard to see why the majority of iraqees prefered to be under hussein's rule over their current predicament.

 

do you realise that instead of going all out into war, you couldve solved so many problems in the world with a fraction of the money?

 

Your welcome. (Feel free to respond in German... or Arabic)

i'd better start learning arabic then, but i sure as hell won't learn german. fucking ugly language.

 

-->

QUOTE(G O B @ Jan 29 2007, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The mess in the middle east is a WORLD problem. The general concensus in America today is to say fuck it. Nobody else is taking it serious so why should we. WE WILL PULL BACK AND TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN.

Bush is a temporary inconvienience. Had he come to power in England or Germany then he would have been another fuhrer-but in America we don't trust OURSELVES enough to let any man have that much power. (term limits need to be universal!

 

The middle east is headed for a complete meltdown of reason and order. These people are still in the dark ages of fudelism and there are no strong national identities. The tribes need to fight and kill each other untill some of them unite and form cohesive states. If Europe ans Asia are still left after that happens -so much the better. If not - oh well.

 

Whatever the USA will be here. Somehow I think the Russians and Chinese will survive also. The rest of you are on you'r own.

the Middle East is a problem, yes. but the USA is going about it the wrong way.

 

- the US used lies to 'sell' their assault -> the international community is pissed off.

- the US is using religious quotes to back their speeches and reasoning -> hello? do you know a better way to jumpstart a new generation of insurgents/terrorists?

- the US uses questionable tactics -> Guantanamo, the illegal prisoner transports throughout Europe, etc

 

that doesn't really help much. if anything, it was a catalyst for the problems to come.

 

if the same conviction (and cash) had been used on other matters, there would be peace in Israel. many local instabilities would've been wiped off the face of the earth due to food and medical projects inside Africa, Asia and the Middle East. (which would've generated good will towards the USA)

 

(to avoid any confusion: i do feel for the troops in the field, but i do not support their command-in-chief)

 

 

either way, you call me ignorant and oblivious to the world around me, i call you naive and manipulated. i suppose that makes us even?

 

i dont think we'll see eye to eye on thisone anytime soon, except if ze Germanz invade Europe again, ow, i mean ze Arabz invade Europe and start cutting off heads of every non-believer they encounter. so let's leave it at this before someone looses his temper.

[DaGroaner 2]

My family immigrated to the US from Germany when I was a child and my children are the first generation of my family born in America. I have traveled extensively through Europe. When exactly was it that Europeans liked Americans? 1946? You can fool others with that BS but not me.

we liked you just fine under Clinton. american popularity was at an alltime high in the last 25 years under his presidency, i think.

 

Next? You treat our military nice because they spend lot's of money over there and that's exactly how deep it goes.

me? i'm not even german, so i don't see how exactly it matter that your army spends money overthere.

 

What on Earth huh? I guess that explains your fate.

yes, what on earth indeed. you believe that in 2 decades the muslims will have taken over Europe and going door by door to cut off the heads of non-believers?

 

where does this angst come from?

 

i have arab family (my father remarried with a morrocan woman) and i'm an army reservist. i do think i have a firsthand view on the current European situation.

 

is my stephmom going to cut off my head? unlikely. who is going to cut off my head then, the random arab in the street? just as unlikely. the criminal youths? they might steal from me, but cutting off my head is a bit too far. so the brainwashed mofos in the few extremist mosques? perhaps they'll blow up things, shoot people, it's possible, but going door to door cutting off heads? yes, that's terribly likely to happen. ok then, foreign forces? yeah, of course, i see the entire Middle East bond together to assault Europe in the hope to chop off everyone's heads.

 

do i need to add [sarcasm]-tags or can you figure it out by yourself?

 

even if somehow (like by divine intervention) muslims got the upper hand in Europe, why would they cut off people's heads for fucks sake...

 

Especially to respond to someone so hopelessly uninformed/ignorant. Personally, I believe you are here simply to stir stuff up and couldn't possibly believe what you yourself are writing. Flash: the growing muslim minority in Europe does not like you and wishes you ill will. A favored method of removing infidels- this includes other muslims- is decapitation. Surely you know this. Your reference to "being lynched" is a reprehensible attempt at humor (at least I hope it was).

the muslims are a very small minority here, and the extremist muslims are a small minority within an already small minority. do you really think all muslims are out to cut off your or my head because i dont believe that Allah is the one true god?

 

i know muslims first hand. hell, they're in my family and i've traveled to many countries around the globe.

 

what do you hope to gain by this hatemongering? i don't fear my neighbour, do you?

 

President Bush is fighting a war that your governments in Europe are as well- only they are aware that their populations (ie. you) are too stupid to realize what is at stake - the very survival of the way of life that all people post WWII have enjoyed. So your governments supply logistics, intelligence, and arrest terrorists that the US helps identify. Don't worry (for now) we'll do the heavy lifting.

you mean you fight wars against people you trained, funded and then betrayed?

 

bin laden you trained & supplied. hussein you even gave chemical weapons to and now you're saying he was dispicable for using them? stop being so goddamned twofaced.

 

i want to believe you're in it for the good fight, but seeing what's happening, that's quite hard to believe.

 

you had a chance to overthrow hussein once before and the political climate was right at the time. you didnt. now you're back there under false pretenses, while fighting a war that'll cost both you and the civilians dearly. it's not hard to see why the majority of iraqees prefered to be under hussein's rule over their current predicament.

 

do you realise that instead of going all out into war, you couldve solved so many problems in the world with a fraction of the money?

 

Your welcome. (Feel free to respond in German... or Arabic)

i'd better start learning arabic then, but i sure as hell won't learn german. fucking ugly language.

 

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(G O B @ Jan 29 2007, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The mess in the middle east is a WORLD problem. The general concensus in America today is to say fuck it. Nobody else is taking it serious so why should we. WE WILL PULL BACK AND TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN.

Bush is a temporary inconvienience. Had he come to power in England or Germany then he would have been another fuhrer-but in America we don't trust OURSELVES enough to let any man have that much power. (term limits need to be universal!

 

The middle east is headed for a complete meltdown of reason and order. These people are still in the dark ages of fudelism and there are no strong national identities. The tribes need to fight and kill each other untill some of them unite and form cohesive states. If Europe ans Asia are still left after that happens -so much the better. If not - oh well.

 

Whatever the USA will be here. Somehow I think the Russians and Chinese will survive also. The rest of you are on you'r own.

the Middle East is a problem, yes. but the USA is going about it the wrong way.

 

- the US used lies to 'sell' their assault -> the international community is pissed off.

- the US is using religious quotes to back their speeches and reasoning -> hello? do you know a better way to jumpstart a new generation of insurgents/terrorists?

- the US uses questionable tactics -> Guantanamo, the illegal prisoner transports throughout Europe, etc

 

that doesn't really help much. if anything, it was a catalyst for the problems to come.

 

if the same conviction (and cash) had been used on other matters, there would be peace in Israel. many local instabilities would've been wiped off the face of the earth due to food and medical projects inside Africa, Asia and the Middle East. (which would've generated good will towards the USA)

 

(to avoid any confusion: i do feel for the troops in the field, but i do not support their command-in-chief)

 

 

either way, you call me ignorant and oblivious to the world around me, i call you naive and manipulated. i suppose that makes us even?

 

i dont think we'll see eye to eye on thisone anytime soon, except if ze Germanz invade Europe again, ow, i mean ze Arabz invade Europe and start cutting off heads of every non-believer they encounter. so let's leave it at this before someone looses his temper.

 

Quickly...

 

Item one, you liked the face Clinton put on America but you OBVIOUSLY don't know US.

 

Two, your country is not a member of the EU?

 

Three, keep downplaying the Islamic threat if you want. I really couldn't give half a crap what happens to Europe as long as it doesn't get a foot-hold here.

 

Hate? No one hates like Euros. No one. Conversely no one in the whole world is as generous as Americans... particularly Conservative Americans.

 

Wrong way? Who the fuck are you to judge. You dopes couldn't even handle Yugoslavia on your own. WTF are you talking about.

Edited January 29, 2007 by DaGroaner

[44rdv4rk 0]

*pokes political thread with 10ft pole*

 

*runs away*

[Gaddis 1,689]

@ Gaddis:

 

as for polititians having to stfu when a country is at war? not at all. this has nothing to do with betrayal. he is more of a patriot trying to fight for what he thinks is right, than the average person in the street that doesnt care either way.

 

i do agree that the army should stfu in public and only talk about the war through appropriate channels, but that does not apply to polititians and citizens.

 

you fight for rights, such as free speech, yet you can't handle a politian giving his personal opinion?

 

 

First off, you're taking what I said out of context. I said I have no problems with *EX-MILITARY* Congress officials setting wartime policy. I have a problem with "ChickenHawk" (as in ones who have not served a lick in any branch of the Military services) Congressional critters telling the U.S. Military branches on how to go about fighting the wars they find themselves embroiled in.

 

Even though he is an asshole that gives the Naval branch of the U.S. services a black eye, John Kerry (supposedly? ) honorably served, so in my book he has more right to spout than someone like 2/3rd's of the current Congress (conservative estimate?) who's asses were safely home at college somewhere on Mom and Pops tab smoking dope and already dissing the country every chance they got while the patriotic and poor were doing their fair share of the fighting in Southeast Asia.

 

Get that straight before spouting off. Next thing I know you'll be saying it's *MY* fault that no WMD's were found in Iraq.

[BlenderWizard 12]

SuA, where the fuck are you from, anyway?

[rwsackett 0]

I stand by my posts. Accusations of hatemongering while defending militant islam is laughable. If you chose to ignore what a good forty percent of the worlds muslims believe and in many cases espouse, it's your own funeral.

 

 

"do you really think all muslims are out to cut off your or my head because i dont believe that Allah is the one true god?"- The people you don't see as a threat say they will. I guess they're liars (as well as cowards).

 

"you mean you fight wars against people you trained, funded and then betrayed?"- Yeah we sure betrayed Bin Laden and Saddam. WTF were we thinking. The only reason we had any alliance for any time was they were the less radical of two extremes. You can only betray a friend NOT your enemies enemy.

 

As a foreigner you are not familiar with American protocol - You do not insult your country when overseas, especially during a time of war.

 

"so let's leave it at this before someone looses his temper." - Oh, you defender of the peaceful muslims you....

 

Please continue fiddling while Rome burns...

[shaneman153a 39]

@ USpride:

 

 

@ shaneman153a:

 

"why rake your neighbor's yard when you have just as many leaves in your own."

 

isn't that quite ironic coming from a american Bush fan?

 

SuA, while I appreciate and am interested in the opinions of Europeans about my country, I don't think you have the visibility that we (I) do on the situation.

 

Iraq was, and still is a world problem, and more specifically a US problem. If someone across the pond wants to kill me with a cordless drill and videotape it to sell his sick religion and exploit my skin color/modern lifestyle but doesn't have the means to do so YET, that's a big ass pile of leaves in my front yard. This war could be won if you either

 

a. Turn the cameras off and handle it. (E.G. Don't lock off Sadr City for 2 years and let them build up because you're worried about the media backlash of another big firefight)

b. Get the fuck out (At this point, sorry) and let the animals sort it out.

 

I didn't always have such a low opinion of these people, but once you see a truck dumping bodies out of it with dog's heads sewn on to replace human heads, your opinions change. My .02

 

This thread is going straight to you-know-where

Edited January 30, 2007 by shaneman153a

[SuAside 2]

Quickly...

 

Item one, you liked the face Clinton put on America but you OBVIOUSLY don't know US.

more than you know about my country, i bet

 

but we (or at least I) were talking about perceptions (as that is what Kerry was talking about).

 

Two, your country is not a member of the EU?

it is. we house the 'capital' of the EU.

 

Three, keep downplaying the Islamic threat if you want. I really couldn't give half a crap what happens to Europe as long as it doesn't get a foot-hold here.

Hate? No one hates like Euros. No one. Conversely no one in the whole world is as generous as Americans... particularly Conservative Americans.

yet, Europeans don't generalise an entire religion into a threat. it appears you are eager to do so.

 

First off, you're taking what I said out of context. I said I have no problems with *EX-MILITARY* Congress officials setting wartime policy. I have a problem with "ChickenHawk" (as in ones who have not served a lick in any branch of the Military services) Congressional critters telling the U.S. Military branches on how to go about fighting the wars they find themselves embroiled in.

 

Even though he is an asshole that gives the Naval branch of the U.S. services a black eye, John Kerry (supposedly? ) honorably served, so in my book he has more right to spout than someone like 2/3rd's of the current Congress (conservative estimate?) who's asses were safely home at college somewhere on Mom and Pops tab smoking dope and already dissing the country every chance they got while the patriotic and poor were doing their fair share of the fighting in Southeast Asia.

 

Get that straight before spouting off. Next thing I know you'll be saying it's *MY* fault that no WMD's were found in Iraq.

that's fair enough

 

SuA, where the fuck are you from, anyway?

Belgium. i doubt most of you could pick it out. but maybe some of you might know our capital: Brussels.

 

I stand by my posts. Accusations of hatemongering while defending militant islam is laughable. If you chose to ignore what a good forty percent of the worlds muslims believe and in many cases espouse, it's your own funeral.

 

"do you really think all muslims are out to cut off your or my head because i dont believe that Allah is the one true god?"- The people you don't see as a threat say they will. I guess they're liars (as well as cowards).

where exactly do you get your 40% figure? funny, how the Europeans are somehow threathened, which according to you has been proven by survey, yet it never made any news...

 

if they're so eager to cut off heads of heathens, why havent they started in their home land? and what possible purpose could it serve?

 

anyway, there is no way 40% of the muslims want to cut off the heads of all heathens for fucks sake...

SuA, while I appreciate and am interested in the opinions of Europeans about my country, I don't think you have the visibility that we (I) do on the situation.

 

Iraq was, and still is a world problem, and more specifically a US problem. If someone across the pond wants to kill me with a cordless drill and videotape it to sell his sick religion and exploit my skin color/modern lifestyle but doesn't have the means to do so YET, that's a big ass pile of leaves in my front yard. This war could be won if you either

 

a. Turn the cameras off and handle it. (E.G. Don't lock off Sadr City for 2 years and let them build up because you're worried about the media backlash of another big firefight)

b. Get the fuck out (At this point, sorry) and let the animals sort it out.

 

agreed, Iraq was & is a problem, but now more than ever.

 

you do realise that Hussein was actually an enemy of muslim extremism in his country, right? he had nothing to gain from it and it threathened his powerbase. therefor it was in his best interest to kept it at least somewhat under control.

 

so you rush the country under false accusations of having wmd's, and the country turns into an extremist cesspool. the civilians on the ground have it worse than under saddam, extremists are streaming in from over the globe and local factions are tearing eachother to shreds.

 

i fail see how the attack 'solved' any of Iraq's problems.

 

I didn't always have such a low opinion of these people, but once you see a truck dumping bodies out of it with dog's heads sewn on to replace human heads, your opinions change. My .02

shock & awe is a powerful tactic, aint it?

 

but what is more important: you let a few extremists build the view of an entire race and religion? somehow i think you see that's not right yourself.

[BlenderWizard 12]

SuA, where the fuck are you from, anyway?

Belgium. i doubt most of you could pick it out. but maybe some of you might know our capital: Brussels.

 

 

How dare you come in here and attepmt to insult OUR intelligence with your asinine theories as to how we should handle things? The first clue to your idiocy (and perhaps every other Euro's) is when you said Americans were at an all time high, popularity wise, with Euros because of Clinton.

 

You should probably just STFU now.

Edited January 30, 2007 by BlenderWizard

[SuAside 2]

How dare you come in here and attepmt to insult OUR intelligence with your asinine theories as to how we should handle things?

i didn't insult anyone, did i? well, saying someone is naive or manipulated probably isnt the nicest thing to say, but the initial reply is what warranted that.

The first clue to your idiocy (and perhaps every other Euro's) is when you said Americans were at an all time high, popularity wise, with Euros because of Clinton.

some argumentation to back that bold statement up might be nice...

 

and for the record, i didnt say it was at an alltime high. obviously the highest point was during the liberation during WW2. but i was talking about the past 25 years or so.

You should probably just STFU now.

i'm trying to give a civil & composed view of what others think (as it is relevant to the topic), you are the one resorting to obvious insults and that doesn't wish to argument any of his stances.

 

even if we don't see eye to eye on political or strategic matters, there's no need for insults...

[DaGroaner 2]

Not all Euros are as short-sighted and ignorant as this dope.

 

anuary 25, 2007 Font:

THE WEST AND ISLAM

"Hurray! We're Capitulating!"

By Henryk M. Broder

 

The prevailing feeling among Muslims is that they are being abused by the West. What should we do about it? We might as well surrender. After all, we're already on our way.

 

This essay is an excerpt of Henryk M. Broder's book "Hurra, Wir Kapitulieren," ("Hurray! We're Capitulating") published by Wolf Jobst Siedler Verlag in 2006. The book spent a number of weeks atop the DER SPIEGEL bestseller list.

 

But then again, he did offend them.

Ten years ago, in the spring of 1996, the world still seemed more or less okay. The towers of the World Trade Center dominated the Manhattan skyline, the American president had an affair with an intern, the Helmut Kohl era was coming to an end in Germany, and intellectuals killed time by debating over whether Francis Fukuyama was right in claiming that we have reached the "end of history" and whether capitalism had truly triumphed or socialism had merely lost the first round. In those days few were aware of the fine distinction between Islam and Islamism.

 

One had to look very closely to recognize the first signs of a brewing crisis. In Berlin, the Rote Grütze theater group was performing an enlightening piece called "Who Said Anything About Love?" To advertise the play, posters depicting a young man and a young woman, naked and full of innocence, were handed out in schools.

 

The schools had no qualms about displaying the posters, until a school official from Berlin's Tiergarten district requested a permit from the city's education authority. The agency turned down the request, arguing that the poster could hurt "the feelings of non-Christian pupils." The education authority was acting preventively and with what amounted to exaggerated concern for a cultural minority that had yet to be integrated into permissive German society. No Muslim pupils had complained about hurt feelings, nor had their parents expressed concerns about immoral harassment.

 

That was 10 years ago. Today everything has changed, except the resolve not to hurt the feelings of Muslims. The issue today no longer revolves around a group of Berlin pupils with an "immigration background," but around 1.3 billion Muslims worldwide -- many of whom are thin-skinned and unpredictable. At issue is freedom of opinion, one of the central tenets of the Enlightenment and democracy. And whether respect, consideration and tolerance are the right approach to dealing with cultures that, for their part, behave without respect, consideration or tolerance when it comes to anything they view as decadent, provocative and unworthy -- from women in short skirts to cartoons they deem provocative without even having seen them.

 

 

Photo Gallery: The Cartoon Jihad

Click on a picture to launch the image gallery (10 Photos)

The controversy over the 12 Muhammad cartoons that were published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten in September 2005 and led to worldwide protests and unrest among Muslims was merely a taste of what is to come, a dress rehearsal for the kinds of disputes Europe can expect to face in the future if it does not rethink its current policy of appeasement. As was the case in the 1930s, when Czechoslovakia was sacrificed in the interest of peace under the Munich Agreement -- a move that ultimately did nothing to prevent World War II -- Europeans today also believe that an adversary, seemingly invincible due to a preference for death over life, can be mollified by good behavior, concessions and submission. All the Europeans can hope to gain in this asymmetric conflict is a temporary reprieve, a honeymoon period that could last 10, 20, or maybe even 50 years. Anyone on death row breathes a sigh of relief when his execution is postponed to some indefinite time in the future.

 

The uproar over the Muhammad cartoons was symptomatic precisely because what triggered it was so insignificant. The drawings themselves were unbelievably harmless.

 

Freedom of expression in conformity with Shariah

 

It took two weeks for "spontaneous" protests to begin. On Oct. 14, 2005, 3,000 Muslims staged a demonstration on Copenhagen's town hall square after Friday prayers. In a letter to Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, ambassadors from 11 Islamic countries demanded that he take the "necessary steps" to avert an abuse of Islam. Rasmussen responded that it was not his responsibility to discipline journalists, and he refused to schedule a meeting with the irate ambassadors. The Egyptian foreign minister got the Arab League and the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) involved soon after. The OIC had already made clear what it wanted in its "Declaration of Human Rights in Islam" in 1990: "All have the right to freely express their opinions in a manner that does not run counter to Shariah law." In essence, what the OIC wanted was to compel Western nations to bring their form of freedom of expression into conformity with Shariah law.

 

Then a delegation of Danish Muslims traveled to the Muslim world, carrying a folder with the 12 cartoons from Jyllands-Posten, as well as of three significantly more provocative drawings in their luggage. The three drawings portrayed the Prophet as a pedophile devil, with pigs' ears and having sex with a dog. Where the bonus material came from and how it found its way into the documentation remains unclear to this day. But clearly someone was interested in generating the appropriate reaction. Newspapers in Arab countries promptly wrote that the Danish media had portrayed Muhammad as a pig, the original 12 cartoons magically turned into 120 drawings, and the Danish government was accused of being behind the whole thing.

 

 

AFP

The West has values worth defending. Doesn't it?

European Union foreign ministers met in Brussels on Jan. 30, 2006 to discuss the crisis. Some believed that Denmark had missed its chance to resolve the conflict on its own. The foreign minister of Luxembourg wasn't just speaking for his own country when he said that the entire affair was "more a Danish than a European problem." The Austrian foreign minister went even further when she said: "statements and actions that degrade a religion in an offensive way should be clearly condemned." Even the Americans abandoned their Danish allies. During the course of a single day, three State Department spokesmen used adjectives like "unacceptable," "offensive" and "objectionable." Muslims got the message.

 

A year ago on Feb. 3, 2006, a "Day of Anger" was proclaimed. Across the Muslim world, the Muhammad cartoons were the focus of Friday prayers. Millions of Muslims who couldn't even locate Denmark on a map demonstrated against these insults to the Prophet, incited by their imams. The embassies of Denmark and Norway were set on fire in Damascus, the Danish embassy was torched in Beirut, firebombs were hurled at the Danish consulate in Tehran, and Danish and Norwegian flags were burned in Nigeria and Algeria.

 

Part II: Cowardice, fear and an overriding concern about the trade balance

 

 

In the past, an attack on an embassy would have been reason enough to go to war. But this time the affected countries did their utmost to "de-escalate." The victims were repentant and begged the perpetrators for forgiveness. Indeed, the West was intent on not doing anything that could possibly give offense and cause these fanatical Muslims to become even angrier.

 

Objectively speaking, the cartoon controversy was a tempest in a teacup. But subjectively it was a show of strength and, in the context of the "clash of civilizations," a dress rehearsal for the real thing. The Muslims demonstrated how quickly and effectively they can mobilize the masses, and the free West showed that it has nothing to counter the offensive -- nothing but fear, cowardice and an overriding concern about the balance of trade. Now the Islamists know that they are dealing with a paper tiger whose roar is nothing but a tape recording.

 

 

Photo Gallery: The Cartoon Jihad

Click on a picture to launch the image gallery (10 Photos)

As different as the West's reactions to the Muslim protests were, what they had in common were origins in feelings of powerlessness and helplessness. Critical souls who only yesterday agreed with Marx that religion is the opium of the masses suddenly insisted that religious sensibilities must be taken into account, especially when accompanied by violence. The representatives of open societies reacted like the inhabitants of an island about to be hit by a hurricane. Powerless against the forces of nature, they stocked up on supplies, nailed doors and windows shut and hoped that the storm would soon pass. Of course, whereas such a reaction may be an appropriate response to natural disasters, such a lack of resistance merely encourages fundamentalists. It completely justifies their view of the West as weak, decadent and completely unwilling to defend itself.

 

Should the age of consent be 12?

 

Those who react to kidnappings and beheadings, to massacres of people of other faiths, and to eruptions of collective hysteria with a call for "cultural dialogue" don't deserve any better.

 

"The West should desist from engaging in all provocations that produce feelings of debasement and humiliation," says psychoanalyst Horst-Eberhard Richter. "We should show greater respect for the cultural identity of Muslim countries. ... For Muslims, it is important to be recognized and respected as equals." In Richter's view, what the Muslims need is "a partnership of equals."

 

But Richter neglects to describe what this partnership might look like. Does achieving such equality mean that we should set up separate sections for women on buses, as is the custom in Saudi Arabia? Should the marrying age for girls be reduced to 12, as is the case in Iran? And should death by stoning be our punishment for adultery, as Shariah law demands? What else could the West do to show its respect for the cultural identity of Islamic countries? Would it be sufficient to allow Horst-Eberhard Richter to decide whether, for example, a wet T-shirt contest in a German city rises to a level of criminal provocation that could cause the Muslim faithful in Hyderabad to feel debased and humiliated?

 

The discussion over which provocations WE should put an end to so that THEY do not feel upset inexorably leads to the realm of the absurd.

 

Should devout Jews be entitled to demand that non-Jews give up pork? And should they have the power to impose sanctions if their demands are not met? Can a Hindu in India run amok because the Dutch do not view cows as sacred beings? Those who believe Muslims have the right to be outraged by the Danes failing to abide by an Islamic prohibition -- especially when it's not even clear that such a prohibition even exists -- must answer such questions clearly in the affirmative. Even illiterates must then be allowed to ransack bookstores; in a world in which anyone is entitled to feel offended and humiliated, anyone can also choose which provocations he is unwilling to accept.

 

 

NEWSLETTER

Sign up for Spiegel Online's daily newsletter and get the best of Der Spiegel's and Spiegel Online's international coverage in your In- Box everyday.

 

The comments made by German pastor Burkhard Müller on Feb. 11, 2005 on "Wort zum Sonntag," a weekly Christian program aired on the ARD public television network, demonstrate just how far we are willing to go when it comes to denying reality. "Islam is a great religion," Müller said, only minutes after the previous news program had shown scenes of burning flags, devastated embassies and holy warriors yelling "death to the infidels!" Where does it come from, this determination to disregard the facts or conveniently distort them so that they cloud our perception of reality?

 

A natural tendency to avoid conflict

 

It comes from fear. Fear may be a poor counselor, but when it comes to educating the masses, there is no more effective tool. Mao famously said: "Strike one to educate one hundred" -- an axiom that helped him solidify his power.

 

It is not respect for other cultures which influences behavior, but rather the awareness of just how fanatic and ruthless our adversaries are. The wilder and more brutal they appear to be, the more likely they are to attract attention and gain respect. Whether venturing into unfamiliar territory means taking a walk in a different neighborhood or visiting a foreign culture, our natural tendency is to avoid conflict.

 

"Nowadays acts of terrorism are not committed for their own sake, but in the name of an ideology one could call Nazi-Islamism," Romanian-American author Norman Manea told the German daily Die Welt in March 2004. The only difference, in Manea's view, is "that this ideology invokes a religion, whereas the Nazis were mythical without being religious." Manea believes that what he calls a "World War III" has already begun. "The Europeans are putting off the recognition -- as they did in the 1930s -- of the tremendous tragedy that awaits them and that has, in fact, already arrived."

 

This sounds like an extreme exaggeration, conjuring up visions of a Day of Judgment, of an Apocalypse Now! Of course, in 1938 hardly anyone could have imagined where the policy of appeasing the Nazis would lead. History does not repeat itself, and yet there are parallels that do not bode well. The willingness to submit to self-deception is as widespread today as it was in the years leading up to World War II.

[DaGroaner 2]

Muslims 'about to take over Europe'

 

Jan. 29, 2007 0:20 | Updated Jan. 29, 2007 16:59

Muslims 'about to take over Europe'

By DAVID MACHLIS AND TOVAH LAZAROFF

 

 

 

 

Islam could soon be the dominant force in a Europe which, in the name of political correctness, has abdicated the battle for cultural and religious control, Prof. Bernard Lewis, the world-renowned Middle Eastern and Islamic scholar, said on Sunday.

 

The Muslims "seem to be about to take over Europe," Lewis said at a special briefing with the editorial staff of The Jerusalem Post. Asked what this meant for the continent's Jews, he responded, "The outlook for the Jewish communities of Europe is dim." Soon, he warned, the only pertinent question regarding Europe's future would be, "Will it be an Islamized Europe or Europeanized Islam?" The growing sway of Islam in Europe was of particular concern given the rising support within the Islamic world for extremist and terrorist movements, said Lewis.

 

Lewis, whose numerous books include the recent What Went Wrong?: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East, and The Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror, would set no timetable for this drastic shift in Europe, instead focusing on the process, which he said would be assisted by "immigration and democracy." Instead of fighting the threat, he elaborated, Europeans had given up.

 

"Europeans are losing their own loyalties and their own self-confidence," he said. "They have no respect for their own culture." Europeans had "surrendered" on every issue with regard to Islam in a mood of "self-abasement," "political correctness" and "multi-culturalism," said Lewis, who was born in London to middle-class Jewish parents but has long lived in the United States.

 

The threat of extremist Islam goes far beyond Europe, Lewis stressed, turning to the potential impact of Iran going nuclear under its current regime.

 

The Cold War philosophy of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD), which prevented the former Soviet Union and the United States from using the nuclear weapons they had targeted at each other, would not apply to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's Iran, said Lewis.

 

"For him, Mutual Assured Destruction is not a deterrent, it is an inducement," said Lewis of Ahmadinejad. "We know already that they [iran's ruling ayatollahs] do not give a damn about killing their own people in great numbers. We have seen it again and again. If they kill large numbers of their own people, they are doing them a favor. They are giving them a quick, free pass to heaven. I find all that very alarming," said Lewis.

 

Lewis acknowledged that Ahmadinejad had made the notion of Iran having the right to acquire a nuclear capability an issue of national pride, and that this should be borne in mind in trying to thwart Teheran's nuclear drive. "One should try to make it clear at all stages that the objection is not Iran having [a nuclear weapon] but to the regime that governs Iran having it," said Lewis.

 

This idea already had support among those Iranians who, on the one hand, believed that their country has a right to possess such a capability but, on the other, feared it being acquired by a government that they do not support.

 

Israel and the West should work to strengthen moderate forces within the Iranian population, he urged, via an aggressive propaganda campaign including the use of television and radio programs.

 

"All the evidence is that the regime is extremely unpopular with their own people," he said. "I am told that the Israeli daily [radio] program in Persian is widely listened to all over Iran with rapt attention." Israel and the West should also be looking to reach out to moderate forces within the Arab world, which are equally alarmed by the spread of extremism in their midst, said Lewis. "The Arab governments understand that Israel is not their biggest problem," said Lewis.

 

 

Here too, he said, Israeli media had a positive effect in the region, particularly in Jordan, where Israeli programs were broadcast and were widely watched. Jordanians "get the message of how a free society works. As one fellow put it, it is amazing to watch these great and famous people banging the table and screaming at each other. Even more striking is the fact that Arabs can denounce the Israeli government on Israeli television. That has an impact." Lewis also highlighted the Washington-based Syrian Reform Party, whose leader Farid Ghadry openly admires Israel.

 

Regarding the summer's war against Hizbullah, Lewis warned that a second such conflict could break out in the near future.

 

He quoted a Christian Lebanese friend saying soon after the fighting ended that "Israel has lost the war, but Hizbullah has not won" because many people in Lebanon were blaming Hizbullah for bringing conflict to their country. Now, though, he added, it was his sense that Hizbullah had "gained some ground since then."

 

Amir Mizroch contributed to this report.

 

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...icle%2FShowFull

[shaneman153a 39]

you do realise that Hussein was actually an enemy of muslim extremism in his country, right? he had nothing to gain from it and it threathened his powerbase. therefor it was in his best interest to kept it at least somewhat under control.

 

so you rush the country under false accusations of having wmd's, and the country turns into an extremist cesspool. the civilians on the ground have it worse than under saddam, extremists are streaming in from over the globe and local factions are tearing eachother to shreds.

 

i fail see how the attack 'solved' any of Iraq's problems.

 

I didn't always have such a low opinion of these people, but once you see a truck dumping bodies out of it with dog's heads sewn on to replace human heads, your opinions change. My .02

shock & awe is a powerful tactic, aint it?

 

but what is more important: you let a few extremists build the view of an entire race and religion? somehow i think you see that's not right yourself.

 

I would agree with you on the hussein notes 100%. In hindsight, he was an absolutely necessary evil, and it takes that kind of sicko to control those extremists. I agree that it has not solved any problems, but again I think that has to do with the way we are fighting the war. We are basically on patrol, shooting back at people that kill us. We're going over there to play defense. But without a whole lot of sources of intel, that's pretty much all you can do.

 

My first tour over there, I realize that it was a few bad apples screwing it up for the rest of them. My second tour, I realized the good apples don't care, or don't care enough to do anyhting (e.g. Tell the police that your neighbor has a SAM-7 and intends to shoot down a helicopter). That's why at this point, let the animals kill each other. Fuck 'em and everybody who looks like 'em.

 

Read a little about the history of Iraq. Read about the troubles Britain had in the twenties when they tried to invade for the port. The exact same thing happened. They conquered it with ease, but occupation to follow was the tough part. Then some years later, a big insurgent attack left 300 dead, they pulled out. Sectarian violence, then in the 50's enter the Baathist party. Iraq is stable for another 30 years. History repeats itself. I say we not only leave, but we also don't let them have a government. They'll work it out. This has been going on since the 1600's. Iraq does not want to be a part of modern society and contribute to world trade. They want to sit in the blazing sun, getting pissed off, cutting barber's heads off for giving "western" haircuts. As long as it doesn't involve me, you can live your life and make a name for your country however you want.

Edited January 30, 2007 by shaneman153a