fishrman 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 OK, this compliance crud is starting to confuse the hell out of me!! So, I've got my standard 16" 7.62. Purchased Dinzag's muzzle brake and will be getting his bullet guide for sure. Also ordered side scope mount from Tantal... Can I use Dinzag's brake on the "stock" rifle as it is now????? I'd like to get something like either the Saiga skeleton or folding stock from Gilberts, which I believe ARE Russian, and could be considered as two more "non-USA" parts, correct? Maybe someone has some alternate ideas that would actually count towards compliance and "simple" to install!!!!!!!! If I go with Surefire mags, (advertised as 3 compliance parts - is that really true?), what else do I need (any help with links and/or actual part #'s of what to order would be awesome!)?? Guess I dont mind spending more $'s on the mag's themselves, dont need several dozen or anything, but would still like to use the higher cap mags with only having to do minimum mod's.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaShooter 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 OK, this compliance crud is starting to confuse the hell out of me!! welcome to the club So, I've got my standard 16" 7.62. Purchased Dinzag's muzzle brake and will be getting his bullet guide for sure. Also ordered side scope mount from Tantal... Can I use Dinzag's brake on the "stock" rifle as it is now?????I don't belive so, that would be adding an "evil feature" I'd like to get something like either the Saiga skeleton or folding stock from Gilberts, which I believe ARE Russian, and could be considered as two more "non-USA" parts, correct? Maybe someone has some alternate ideas that would actually count towards compliance and "simple" to install!!!!!!!! Correct, those are russian. If you are doing the full conversion (moving the trigger and adding a pg) You can install a G2 trigger it's US made and counts as 3 parts. Order the single hook. You can also install anew gas piston, one from Arsenal USA, the install is pretty straightforward, and can be done with a vice, battery drill, hacksaw and a hammer. If I go with Surefire mags, (advertised as 3 compliance parts - is that really true?), what else do I need (any help with links and/or actual part #'s of what to order would be awesome!)? US mags are 3 parts, body, floorplate and follower. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
az_shootist 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 So, I've got my standard 16" 7.62. Purchased Dinzag's muzzle brake and will be getting his bullet guide for sure. Also ordered side scope mount from Tantal... Can I use Dinzag's brake on the "stock" rifle as it is now?????I don't belive so, that would be adding an "evil feature" You're confusing bans. "Evil features" only pertains to the now expired '94 assualt weapons ban. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaShooter 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Thanks for the clarification, It's been a while since I had to play the 922r game. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fishrman 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Thanks!!! 1) So....... If I understand, it is indeed legal to toss Dinzag's brake on "factory" configuration?!?! Awesome, it looks GREAT, he rocks! 2) If I stick with "US" mag's, I'll be OK using hicap if I get the G2 trigger assembly? I will have added 6 compliance parts, right? 3) Last question - If I go with the folding Saiga stock will I need to add anything else from line #2? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 You're confusing bans. "Evil features" only pertains to the now expired '94 assualt weapons ban. I'm no master at this either, but if it's just a parts count question then does that mean I could stick the new AGP 10rnders in a S12 before converting? Could I stick a 30rnd USA magazine in a 7.62 without converting? Could I add a US made PG to a sporter gun just b/c it wouldn't increase the parts count? I think the answer is "no" to all of those questions. AWB or not, I thought if you changed the configuration of the gun as it was imported, it becomes non-compliant. Can we get some further clarification please? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 I wouldn't lean too heavily on the Surfire mags being 3 parts....I was under the impression that they are non-usa mags brought into the country then modifyied in the USA. course i could be wrong on that but if its the case, once a foriegn part always a foriegn part Quote Link to post Share on other sites
az_shootist 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 I'm no master at this either, but if it's just a parts count question then does that mean I could stick the new AGP 10rnders in a S12 before converting? Yes Could I stick a 30rnd USA magazine in a 7.62 without converting? Yes Could I add a US made PG to a sporter gun just b/c it wouldn't increase the parts count? It depends on your parts count. You could only add a PG if it would not take you to more than 10 imported parts (from the ATF list). Rather than re-invest the wheel, I'll look for a good explanatin and repost later. I'm just rereading this and see that I'm wrong (or probably wrong). You can NOT add a US flash-hider to a gun unless the gun has 9 or less imported parts. My previous point about "confusing the bans" was just to highlight that during the 94 ban, you couldn't add a FH under any circumstance to a post 94 gun, regardless of whether or not you met the parts count requirement. Similarly, as "evil features", folders and bayo lugs were also off limits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fishrman 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 az_shootist, is the muzzle brake considered the same things as a flash hider when it comes to "evil parts"?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Could I stick a 30rnd USA magazine in a 7.62 without converting? Yes Doesn't the hi-cap mag defeat the definition of "sporter" configuration? I believe you have to do a conversion before you can legally use a 30 rounder in a 7.62. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) is the muzzle brake considered the same things as a flash hider when it comes to "evil parts"?? I believe the official term is "muzzle device" which incorporates FH and brakes. Edited January 30, 2007 by AegisDei Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 is the muzzle brake considered the same things as a flash hider when it comes to "evil parts"?? I believe the official term is "muzzle device" which incorporates FH and brakes. The BATFE does use "muzzle device" in their list of official parts. However, having a compensator as legal may depend on your state firearms regulations. For example, in New York state it would appear okay to have a comp on the barrel if it's welded and not threaded on. They expressly forbid flash hiders. However, some muzzle devices seem to have a dual purpose, so who knows what would truly be acceptable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
az_shootist 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 az_shootist, is the muzzle brake considered the same things as a flash hider when it comes to "evil parts"?? Some muzzle breaks are legally flash hiders. For compliance with the 94 ban, there was an entire industry based on creating muzzle breaks which were proven not to reduce flash and therefore not flash hiders (hence bushmaster using ak-74 breaks). To be clear, 922r does not care if it reduces flash, only that it is a muzzle attachment. Doesn't the hi-cap mag defeat the definition of "sporter" configuration? I believe you have to do a conversion before you can legally use a 30 rounder in a 7.62. To my knowledge, it depends on the gun. I need to see how the 922r parts list maps to the Saiga (I've never researched a Saiga specifically). However, MAK-90s, Daewoos, SR-9s, could all take hicap mags legally. ...I assume this would be true of a saiga's as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) Shootist I think you are wrong on that. (Edit) I was writing this at 12 and stopped, so it is the 11:45 AM post I was refering to. "Could I stick a 30rnd USA magazine in a 7.62 without converting?" Do you have more than 10 imported parts? If so you can not. Tapco's website has a list of 922r parts for AKs and it would seem that a stock Saiga has 14 parts as it does not have a muzzle atatchment or a pistol grip. If you used US made mags you would have only 11 parts you still need to lose one. Edited January 30, 2007 by csspecs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fishrman 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Crap! Ok, the confusion is getting worse now! Let's just start with the very basic question....... if I add that one little "muzzle brake", made in the US, to my otherwise "out of the box" Saiga and take it to the range that way this weekend with stock 10rnd mag and all, should I be "looking over my shoulder"???? Isnt a brake a brake and flash hider a flash hider? NEXT..... let's assume this formentioned US made muzzle brake is still ON the rifle, and I replace trigger assembly (3 US parts), would I THEN be cool in using US made HiCap mag's? Is the G2 trigger assembly something pretty simple to install - let's assume NO PG conversion. What would be "safe" to buy as "US Made MAG's" anyway???? I see there's some doubt about the Surefire mag's being made here.... argh. THEN later on, if I replaced stock with something not made in the US, would I still be looking at having to replace one (possibly two) MORE items with US made parts to compensate for that particular change? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) "Could I stick a 30rnd USA magazine in a 7.62 without converting?" Do you have more than 10 imported parts? If so you can not. My point exactly. The questions were meant to be rhetorical in that the answer was "no" to each. Any of the changes COULD take it out of the sporter classification and violate compliance. Same with a muzzle device. It's a two-part game: 1) You must keep it a sporting rifle if you have more than 10 foreign parts. 2) If you want to make it unsporting, then you must have fewer than 11 foreign parts. So a high-cap magazine will likely make a rifle or shotgun unsporting. A PG definitely will make it unsporting. And a muzzle device could be argued that it shouldn't change the classification, but I'd not risk it. The AWB has ended, but its effects will always be felt. Those "evil items" forbidden by the AWB likely are what the ATF will use to interpret what makes a sporter rifle change classification into an assault rifle...and means the difference between happy shooting and 5yrs in federal prison. But swapping the FCG and using ONLY US magazines would drop your parts count from 14 to 8. then you could even add a muzzle break. just be sure never to let a foreign magazine near your gun. On a side note, in looking up all these statutes I found that armor piercing bullets are legal. How cool is that? I have been misinformed for years that they were banned! Edited January 30, 2007 by AegisDei Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Crap! Ok, the confusion is getting worse now! Let's just start with the very basic question....... if I add that one little "muzzle brake", made in the US, to my otherwise "out of the box" Saiga and take it to the range that way this weekend with stock 10rnd mag and all, should I be "looking over my shoulder"???? Isnt a brake a brake and flash hider a flash hider? I'd not do this. You might could argue that a muzzle brake doesn't take it out of the "sporterized" configuration that is legal to import, but I'd not risk it. NEXT..... let's assume this formentioned US made muzzle brake is still ON the rifle, and I replace trigger assembly (3 US parts), would I THEN be cool in using US made HiCap mag's? Is the G2 trigger assembly something pretty simple to install - let's assume NO PG conversion. What would be "safe" to buy as "US Made MAG's" anyway???? I see there's some doubt about the Surefire mag's being made here.... argh. the question with surefire mags is their feeding reliability. some people swear by them, others swear against them. i think BR3 or Jeric sells G2s ready to drop into a sporterized rifle. i believe it takes a bit of modifications, but i've never tried it so I can't say for sure. THEN later on, if I replaced stock with something not made in the US, would I still be looking at having to replace one (possibly two) MORE items with US made parts to compensate for that particular change? with DOMESTIC magazines ONLY and domestic FCG you'd be at 8 foreign parts, so you could add two foreign parts. stock and pg if you wanted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 On a side note, in looking up all these statutes I found that armor piercing bullets are legal. How cool is that? I have been misinformed for years that they were banned! isn't it cool....i can't legally throw a 30rd mag into my saiga but if i use the 10rd mag i can throw armor peircing incindiary ammo down range all day long makes sense dosen't it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 On a side note, in looking up all these statutes I found that armor piercing bullets are legal. How cool is that? I have been misinformed for years that they were banned! isn't it cool....i can't legally throw a 30rd mag into my saiga but if i use the 10rd mag i can throw armor piercing incendiary ammo down range all day long makes sense dosen't it? Think separate sales records are required for AP rounds, but they're good to go. Typical regulatory illogic with low caps + AP =OK, but I'll take it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
az_shootist 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Let's just start with the very basic question....... if I add that one little "muzzle brake", made in the US, to my otherwise "out of the box" Saiga and take it to the range that way this weekend with stock 10rnd mag and all, should I be "looking over my shoulder"???? Isnt a brake a brake and flash hider a flash hider? No, a break (AKA compensator) and an FH perform two different functions. A break reduces recoil and/or muzzle rise. A flash hider reduces muzzle flash. Some breaks have an unintended (it wasn't the goal) side affect of reducing flash, albeit not very well. For ATF purposes, breaks that reduce flash (even slightly) are also flash hiders, just as devices which mildly reduce sound are still considered suppressors. For real world purposes, you wouldn't but a break on your gun to reduce flash unless it was specifically design to do so. Take AR-15s for example; the A1s had flash hiders, while the A2 had flash hiding compensators. The slant compensator on early AKs was for the sole purpose of reducing muzzle rise, but is still a muzzle attachment for 922r purposes. With all that said, these nuances between FH and break are an AWB issue, not a 922r issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fishrman 0 Posted February 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Thanks for all the input guys (and gals!). Also a special thanks to dinzag - wish I could buy everything through him, he deserves all the business we can give him!! It's clear as mud, but I see how to make it more simple - just throw in as many US made parts as you can!!! Here's my preliminary shopping list - please let me know if I'm off anywhere........ stock: http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?...products_id=424 Handguard http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?...products_id=422 UA Mags http://secure.netsolhost.com/575571.587307...uct_Code=MG4702 Dinzag's brake and bullet guide, and scope mount from Tantal. The way I see it I'll immediately be adding 2 (stock) + 3 (mag) +1 (hand guard) = 6 compliance parts and then the brake and hi-cap mags (US made) are no longer a 922 issue - correct? Then somewhere down the road if I decided to add g2 trigger (3parts) and gas piston (1), I could then at that point in time use ANY AK mag AND/OR any furniture regardless of origin if I desired, right???? Anyone have any experieince with these mag's I listed above? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
az_shootist 0 Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 It's clear as mud, but I see how to make it more simple - just throw in as many US made parts as you can!!! Now you've over simplified it. Does anyone know of a site or ATF letter that maps saiga/ak parts to the restricted parts? I've seen the lists, but haven't come across one lately. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 It's clear as mud, but I see how to make it more simple - just throw in as many US made parts as you can!!! Now you've over simplified it. Does anyone know of a site or ATF letter that maps saiga/ak parts to the restricted parts? I've seen the lists, but haven't come across one lately. http://soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html ta-da Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aurbis 1 Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Nice link. Now I know that I only have 9 foreign parts! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vermiform 26 Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 The way I see it I'll immediately be adding 2 (stock) + 3 (mag) +1 (hand guard) = 6 compliance parts and then the brake and hi-cap mags (US made) are no longer a 922 issue - correct? The above statement is correct because you said you are ADDING these parts and NOT REPLACING. Be aware that you are only replacing FIVE (5) parts, not six. The standard Saiga does not have a pistol grip, so you are not REPLACING IT, you are merely adding an American pistol grip to your rifle. It is easiest to just count the foreign parts your are TAKING off the rifle, or the number of foreign parts left on your rifle after your conversion to an assault weapon. You can have no more than 10. When all is said and done, if a federal agent can pick up your rifle and count more than 10 foreign parts, then you have broken the law in their eyes. Also be advised, after you put that folding stock on your rifle, it becomes an assault weapon in their eyes. So if you put your factory 10 round magazine back in the rifle, you add back THREE foreign parts and have an illegal weapon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Probally why most people don't use the magazine(s) as "US parts"...too easy to find that factory mag you have and use it or the run of the mill AK mags are just cheaper Quote Link to post Share on other sites
auburn 1 Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 (edited) Tapco's website has a list of 922r parts for AKs and it would seem that a stock Saiga has 14 parts as it does not have a muzzle atatchment or a pistol grip. If you used US made mags you would have only 11 parts you still need to lose one. Am I right that the unconverted Saiga without the mag is 11 parts? Replacing the trigger and stock with US parts gets that down to 7 foreign parts. Using non-US AK mags would not an issue, as you would only be back up to 10....right? This is assuming no other foreign parts like scope mount, etc have been added. Edited February 3, 2007 by Auburn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vermiform 26 Posted February 3, 2007 Report Share Posted February 3, 2007 Am I right that the unconverted Saiga without the mag is 11 parts? Replacing the trigger and stock with US parts gets that down to 7 foreign parts. Using non-US AK mags would not (be) an issue, as you would only be back up to 10....right? That is correct. There has been some argument in the past as to whether the Saiga rifles have a trunion, the consensus here is that they do not. Still, some people shoot for 9 or under just to be sure. This is assuming no other foreign parts like scope mount, etc have been added. Well a foreign scope mount would be ok because it is not on the list of countable parts. You can have as many foreign accessories that you want, as long as they aren't on the countable parts list. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
auburn 1 Posted February 4, 2007 Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 Well a foreign scope mount would be ok because it is not on the list of countable parts. You can have as many foreign accessories that you want, as long as they aren't on the countable parts list. I didn't know that. I thought a side rail optics mount counted....glad it doesn't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fishrman 0 Posted February 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2007 (edited) AegisDei, would you have a link to either of those places offering G2's ready for the unmodded Saiga? Thanks!!! Edited February 4, 2007 by fishrman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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