BattleRifleG3 16 Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 (edited) Ok, I've gotten my mag adaptor pretty much designed and built as well as it can be. Here's the low-down, and I need input in order to start producing them. 1. This is not only a clamp on adaptor. This requires the owner to be comfortable dremeling away the inside of their receiver in an irreversible proccess. The user must have a level of skill and confidence a step above that required to do a hi-cap p-grip conversion to this or another Saiga. I highly recommend doing such a conversion as preparation for your own experience before getting into my conversion. 2. My goal from the beginning was to NEVER touch the trunion. Period. Every mag conversion I have read of before this removes material from the trunion. Because I did not design the trunion, nor have I access to the stress analysis that was performed on it, nor can I positively conclude that the material needed to be removed is non-essential to strength or accuracy, I WILL NOT tell others to. IF such a procedure is in fact sound, which may well be, it is still a job for precision machinery and a skilled machinist. If you do not have a milling machine and the ability to use it, I would NEVER suggest taking a Dremel to your trunion. Krebs Custom Guns has declined to do any such conversions (for any hi-cap mags, including Galil and M14) because they will not touch the trunion. A member of Gunsnet has developed his own conversion for unmodified G3 mags which does touch the trunion and is in the midst of torture testing his own. His results will speak for themselves, though I can't see how he could avoid cutting the heads off of the lower trunion rivets. My mags need a recess in order to clear them. 3. In order to avoid machining the trunion, the magazine well needed to be moved backwards. In order to do this, the post accross the receiver had to be removed. I have concluded that this post is only necessary in constructing the receiver, and that its structural purpose after assembly is performed by the front and rear trunions. The mag is almost against the hammer spring. Contact will probably occur at some point, but I have tested it and shown no ill results. In order to install this adaptor, you must be comfortable removing this post. I have tested my Saiga with no ill results of this post's removal, but you are responsible for your own conversion and must make the decision yourself. Some people might disagree with my removal of the post as much as I disagree with them on touching the trunion. The choice is yours. 4. Moving back the mag well means less space for the trigger finger. More space would be available if a new or modified trigger guard were attached to the new mag well. Would people be willing to cut and drill their trigger guard to this new design, would you prefer an integral trigger guard similar to an AR-15 style, or would you prefer to stay as original as possible at the expense of space? I successfully fired mine without any interference, and my fingers are about medium size. 5. The mag release I designed is a push button similar in configuration to an AR-15. Is that what you guys are comfortable with, or would a left side paddle release be preferred? The push botton one works well. It even drops free the one mag I tested. 6. A G3 mag isn't a G3 mag isn't a G3 mag. My first mag worked well until the last five rounds, which did not sit flush against the feed lips. I believe the spring is lacking strength. I will try another spring and another mag. If I blocked the mag to 15rd this problem would be nill. That's twice as much capacity as the factory mag, but not as much as we'd like. I could also splice springs together, and try to make a 30rd mag out of two 20s. But the possibility here is that though these mags would totally work in a G3, you couldn't just grab any G3 mag and expect it to work. You would either need to convert mags yourself, or buy all of them converted from me. Prices would look like $10-15 per converted mag, depending on how I end up doing it (Wolff springs are a consideration). The basic result is that there would be a special mag for this gun, that would happen to also work in a G3. 7. I have investigated the possibility of adapting these mags even more after the ban dies for better feeding, and based on observations of their difficulties, such a modification would not help. My magazine conversion is basically independent of the expiration of the AW ban. It is legal now (good thing too, cause I did it on mine) and there are no cheap hi-caps that will be flooding the country afterwards that will render a pre-ban mag conversion obsolete. 8. I have considered developing a mag to work in an unconverted Saiga 308 after the ban dies. If such a thing were offered in 20rd capacity for $25 (roughly the same as 8rd factory mags), would you guys go for this over the adapter based conversion? My estimated price for the conversion kit will be $75 including one converted mag. Four non-conversion mags would cost $100 (my untested 20rd concept or 8rd factory), while an adaptor kit and four converted mags would cost $105-120, with each additional mag costing $10-15. So the basic question is, knowing all this, what do you all think of this prospect? Making something work in my gun is one thing, making a production line to fit everyone's gun is a whole different subject. I would insist on calling my work "custom manufacturing" because every piece is manually machined and fitted, and labor reflects that. It also means I'm available for input through these forums to be in touch with your needs and wants, and to be able to offer variations on a customer by customer basis for a lower cost increase than a company that uses CNC machining or forging. Edited August 21, 2004 by BattleRifleG3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chips 0 Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 if i was conident enough in my abilities, i would consider a conversion, but i am not confident. also, i don't have much money to buy an adapter and then pay someone to put it on my gun. if you ever start producing saiga mags, i would pay to get one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted August 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 I wish there was some generic way to test and hone skills with a Dremel type tool. Like a tutorial practice thingy. Assignments or something. If you're comfortable doing a standard Saiga conversion and doing it well, I think you can do this with extra care. My design does allow room for error. It mounts by locking into the trunion like the original mag, and screwing into the hole left open when the plate is removed from the bottom of the rifle. I'd suggest doing an X39 or 223 as practice if you're comfortable doing that. As I've said before, I think this country needs knowledgeable and skilled gun owners, and I would like to encourage people to develop their own skills. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chips 0 Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 im pretty good with a dremel, and ive been toying with the idea of doing a pg conversion. i have all the tools necissary, but i just dont trust myself to drill into the reciever of any of my rifles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jtoddellis 2 Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 I would definitly be willing to pay $25 for a 20 round mag to keep from converting my gun, but would also consider conversion if the 20 round mags were unavailable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HPJeep 0 Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 I would be more inclined to just buy hi cap mags from you instead of converting to G3 mags. However if you cannot or are not able to produce hi cap mags I would be tempted to do the conversion. Not too sure on my Dremel skills. Would hate to ruin a good rifle in order to have more bullets flying down range. I think you would make more money by making hi cap mags for around $25 after AWB dies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted August 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Well the adaptor has been done, and the mags have not, so taht would be a whole new project, but I'll consider it when the ban dies. I am assuming it will. Anyone who thinks otherwise and thus wants my G3 mag conversion as described ASAP can let me know ASAP and I'll see about getting a few ready. I start school again next week so time is very short, but I'll be able to do a few short runs on weekends this year. None of the girls at school like my anyway Quote Link to post Share on other sites
glitch308 0 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Hey, BattleRifleG3, I'll try your conversion. I've got to do the PG conversion first, but if you're looking for a fool to fool-proof your kit, I'm your man! Seriously though, I am interested, reasonably competent, and willing to pay for the privilege of field testing your idea. And, it's been a couple of days and I don't see hi-caps flooding the market, or even advertised by the major players. Your conversion may the only option. Seems like there ought to be a dremel tool skills course, like "take an empty soup can and make one of these...", then "take the new Georgia state quarter, put it in a vice and..." know what I mean? Skills come from practice, period. You've got to look at the job, find something like it, then practice on that before you risk screwing up a good rifle... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CFII 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 I'll do the conversion without hesitiation. I am interested. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RooK 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 G3, any chance you could get us pics of the conversion? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
screaming eagle 0 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 I for one, would be very interested. I'm in north central Texas with access to CTD, CDNN, military gun supply & a few other dealers &/or wholesalers. None of them have a clue about 20 rd factory mags EVER being available Molan Labe! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txn 0 Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 (edited) BattleRifleG3, Mind if I ask, what is the status of the adaptor? Do you have any pics to share? Also, you mentioned converting G3 mags after the ban. Any luck there? Edited September 21, 2004 by txn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted September 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 I'm basically trying to tweak the adaptor to use all G3 mags, and find a way to make the mags feed reliably. Thus far I chaven't found a way to make them work any better in this conversion that couldn't be done before the ban died. Plus I'm a full time senior engineering student, so time is scarce. Wish I had digital camera cabability, but I'll definitely post pics if I can bum a friend's like before. Basically I have to overcome G3 mag differences and magazine spring strength. Both could be really simple mods, but still will take some time to develop. I'll have a bit more time later this fall to develop it more, and come winter will have even more time to possibly produce a few. I can't promise anything specific, but I'd say winter's when they'd be most likely to be available, in limited numbers. What I can guarantee you is that I won't take anyone's money unless I have an adaptor with their name on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Good_stuff4me 0 Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 I am intrested in an adapter, I'm sure you could sell them faster then you could make them. Add me to the list. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
screaming eagle 0 Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Have you considered making it function with FAL (metric) mags? Sure would be nice to at least 2 of my .308s using the same mags Molan Labe! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted September 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 FAL mags will not work in a Saiga 308 at all because the feed lips go all the way forward. My G3 mags must be modified, but will still work in a G3 (this was legal before the ban died). A FAL mag would have to be drastically cut at the front end and would be useless in a FAL. G3 mags are much cheaper these days anyway. Was a good idea, but I thought about it and ruled it out long ago. Tilt-locking and many-lugged bolts like the FAL and AR are better for that feed lips design. The AK has a 2 or 3 lugged bolt and the mag is placed under the area where the lugs lock. Allows for simplicity without too much bulk. The FAL does this with a rear tilt locking bolt and the AR does this with a generally shorter receiver and lower bolt rotation angle. ROBARM is going to introduce a 308 version of their new XCR that uses FAL mags... Its price will be a chunk above the AR-10. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
screaming eagle 0 Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Guess if i want magazine compatability l'll just have to get a cetme..... or multiple saigas! I've chosen most of my wpns with simplicity in mind. Armscor AK22s Maadi AKs Mak 91s Saiga 12s Saiga .308 This enables me to teach friends / family on one wpn (.22) & in an emergency they could use any of the others. Same safety, loading / charging procedure mag release, immediate action drill..... The FAL is mine to use Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brian33x51 1 Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 (edited) At this point I'm sure $25 a mag will fly. If your mags are steel and not polymer I'm absolutely certain they will be loved. If it's a problem, find someone to buy the design off of you if possible so these can be mass produced. And even if the *%#$ing ban went back in I'm sure you could still make and sell them as 10rds, competition for EAA's inflated prices. Hicaps for .308 are nice, but I like having lots of mags handy regardless. Just as long as they work well. (I still want them though!) Edited October 31, 2004 by brian33x51 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
itak 0 Posted November 9, 2004 Report Share Posted November 9, 2004 http://www.eaacorp.com/parts/Magazines/smag.shtml EAA Corp. has Saiga 308 20rd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted November 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Correction - They ADVERTISE them. Has anyone actually gotten one that they ordered? I have a feeling we'll be in for a loooong wait. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brian33x51 1 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Just saw on another part of these forums that they're selling the hicap 7.62x39 mags, but they havent even made the manuf equipment yet. I'd guess it's probably the same for the 308. Of course you know you are supposed to believe everything you read on the internet... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brian33x51 1 Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 I have considered developing a mag to work in an unconverted Saiga 308 after the ban dies. If such a thing were offered in 20rd capacity for $25 (roughly the same as 8rd factory mags), would you guys go for this over the adapter based conversion? Do you have my 8 mags ready yet??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
itak 0 Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 How about glue 2 8 rd mags togather to make a hi-cap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Unknown Poster 5 Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 (edited) I have a G3 30rd mag that if I pop off the upper tac welded upper bracket on it, it seems to have the same shape exactly as the saiga mag and its only missing the loc up tabs which i believe can be added on. When i get some spare time i'll make one up. I was a welder fabricator and i believe there is a welding process for the loc tabs tha twill work. UKP Edited November 17, 2004 by Unknown Poster Quote Link to post Share on other sites
St Michael 0 Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 I have a G3 30rd mag that if I pop off the upper tac welded upper bracket on it, it seems to have the same shape exactly as the saiga mag and its only missing the loc up tabs which i believe can be added on. Please let us know if this works, and post pics if possible. I have a .308 on layaway, for which I was going to order spare 10 round mags from EEA. However, if the G3 mags can be readily converted, I'll go that direction instead. I just need a general idea of what is involved in the G3 mag conversion. I'm not concerned whether the altered mag can be used in a G3/FAL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
St Michael 0 Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 I have considered developing a mag to work in an unconverted Saiga 308 after the ban dies. If such a thing were offered in 20rd capacity for $25 (roughly the same as 8rd factory mags), would you guys go for this over the adapter based conversion? So the basic question is, knowing all this, what do you all think of this prospect? Personally, I'd like to have hi cap mags to use in the unconverted Saiga. I have no plans on a trigger or PG conversion whatsoever. Is it a difficult conversion on the mag? I'd be happy to pay you $25 for them, and I'd order 4 right now. But I also would be willing to attempt the G3 mag conversion for use in the unconverted Saiga myself. Does anyone have instruction for the latter? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted November 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 The mag conversion is more difficult than the FCG conversion. Not undoable by someone with Dremel skill, but the P-grip conversion is easy by comparison. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Unknown Poster 5 Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I think converting the G3 will be easy since its the same shape once you take off the upper tac welded loc up for the G3 rifle. Then the mag has the same shape as the saiga mag and its only missing the loc up tabs which is easy to weld on. Just looking at it, it doesn't seem no biggie to do. I have some low temp weld thats good for 20,000lbs tenslie strenght so it will never come apart and the low heat means no distortion in the mag body too. I'm in the middle of hunting season right now but after turkey day I'll built a 30rder for my saiga. UKP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Unknown Poster 5 Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I think converting the G3 will be easy since its the same shape once you take off the upper tac welded loc up for the G3 rifle. Then the mag has the same shape as the saiga mag and its only missing the loc up tabs which is easy to weld on. Just looking at it, it doesn't seem no biggie to do. I have some low temp weld thats good for 20,000lbs tenslie strenght so it will never come apart and the low heat means no distortion in the mag body too. I'm in the middle of hunting season right now but after turkey day I'll built a 30rder for my saiga. UKP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I've tended to have the view that it's better to convert the gun once than to drastically convert every mag. My converted G3 mags are merely relieved at the sides of the front. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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