Shotgun users

[SuAside 2]

I was having a discussion with an american law enforcement officer on another forum (not gun related) and he said a few things about the use of shotguns that well, kinda amazed me coming from an ex-airforce current-LEO dude. Hell, the dude even hopes to get SWAT training. Frankly, with the stuff he's been spewing, I kind of doubt he is suited...

 

So I'm looking for some comments from you guys regarding the use of shotguns in a law enforcement context (not hunting).

 

Am I the one dropping the ball entirely, or is he?

 

I freakin hate shotguns. A good rifle shooter is a lot better in many ways more than an expert shotgun shooter.

This is what sparked it all. I, obviously, couldn't agree with that statement since both have specific different uses. But no matter what arguments I brought up, he just kept going at it...

 

Shotguns aren't as useful as they once were for my line of work. Their useful range is actually getting to be shorter than a pistol's. Beyond pistol range, obviously a rifle would be necessary. I could write pages and pages of arguments, but I feel they would fall on deaf ears, so I'll sum it up to one sentence. Shotguns are for people that aren't confident in their abilities to hit a target with one projectile.

I don't quite get how he fails to see the plenty uses of shotguns, so I simply argument further.

 

Let me elaborate. ALMOST ALL AMERICAN POLICE DEPARTMENTS HAVE GOTTEN RID OF SHOTGUNS DUE TO COLLATERAL DAMAGE, AND GENERAL INNEFECTIVENESS except for less than lethal deployment.

Well, this kinda caught me off guard. Pretty unexpected from my point of view.

 

Is this true? I can't quite imagine it is.

[DaGroaner 2]

"Shotguns aren't as useful as they once were for my line of work"

 

He's full of shit. First of all shotguns have become more useful for law enforcement over the past couple of decades. In my locality the police carry two shotguns, one is painted green and loaded with non-lethal bean-bags.

 

"Their useful range is actually getting to be shorter than a pistol's"

 

Say what? What does this guy pack? A .454?

 

As far as his final quote it seems to me more and more departments are doubling up with green guns so I believe he is wrong but I suppose it is possible. In any case this guy mixes apples and oranges. Pistols, rifles and shotguns all have their place in LE, the military and in my personal defense planning. I hope this guy works in Mayberry where the Chief will give him his bullet when he needs it.

[AegisDei 2]

I tend to agree with him, but shotguns do have their purpose in LEO work.

 

They're great for non-lethals, they can be an effective door breacher, and they have lower penetration than rifles or pistols so they are better for indoor raids if there's not many collaterals around.

 

But when push comes to shove, a carbine is always the best weapon IMO. It's the most effective mix of lethality, accuracy, mobility, and capacity.

[SuAside 2]

thanks for the added insight.

 

He's full of shit. First of all shotguns have become more useful for law enforcement over the past couple of decades. In my locality the police carry two shotguns, one is painted green and loaded with non-lethal bean-bags.

alright, good to know.

 

Say what? What does this guy pack? A .454?

i have no idea. the issue came up when he said he wanted to buy a semi-auto HK416 ( the 10.5 incher) as a patrol rifle and someone else asked if he had a shotty.

 

(didn't even know HK416's were made in semi-auto for LEOs)

As far as his final quote it seems to me more and more departments are doubling up with green guns so I believe he is wrong but I suppose it is possible. In any case this guy mixes apples and oranges. Pistols, rifles and shotguns all have their place in LE, the military and in my personal defense planning.

interesting & indeed, agreed.

 

They're great for non-lethals, they can be an effective door breacher, and they have lower penetration than rifles or pistols so they are better for indoor raids if there's not many collaterals around.

yeah, brought up those agruments myself.

 

But when push comes to shove, a carbine is always the best weapon IMO. It's the most effective mix of lethality, accuracy, mobility, and capacity.

hmz, i'd take a P90 over an M4 for police work actually.

 

but yeah, a carbine is useful, although 5.56mm wouldn't be my round of choice tbh.

[AegisDei 2]

hmz, i'd take a P90 over an M4 for police work actually.

 

but yeah, a carbine is useful, although 5.56mm wouldn't be my round of choice tbh.

5.7x28 over 5.56x45? 5.7 has wayyyy too much penetration for my liking. If anything I'd prefer a larger, lower velocity round. Perhaps the 6.8?

 

Can police use fragmenting, HP, or mushrooming rounds? Or are they restricted to ball?

[SuAside 2]

5.7x28 over 5.56x45? 5.7 has wayyyy too much penetration for my liking. If anything I'd prefer a larger, lower velocity round. Perhaps the 6.8?

euhm, the 5.7mm is supposed to have less overpenetration than the 5.56mm, or at least for the LEO/army ammo (cant speak for the civilian ammo that's available in the states). 5.7mm is designed to stop after the first soft target or a wall (but punch through armor plates like a hot knife through butter, but dont ask me how they do that). if i recall correctly the 5.7mm only penetrates 10 inches into ballistic jelly.

 

my fav is still 6.5 Grendel, but that can't be used in an existing carbine without an extensive workover.

Can police use fragmenting, HP, or mushrooming rounds? Or are they restricted to ball?

in the USA? no idea.

[AegisDei 2]

5.7x28 over 5.56x45? 5.7 has wayyyy too much penetration for my liking. If anything I'd prefer a larger, lower velocity round. Perhaps the 6.8?

euhm, the 5.7mm is supposed to have less overpenetration than the 5.56mm, or at least for the LEO/army ammo (cant speak for the civilian ammo that's available in the states). 5.7mm is designed to stop after the first soft target or a wall (but punch through armor plates like a hot knife through butter, but dont ask me how they do that). if i recall correctly the 5.7mm only penetrates 10 inches into ballistic jelly.

 

my fav is still 6.5 Grendel, but that can't be used in an existing carbine without an extensive workover.

Agreed on the 6.5 grendel.

 

I thought that given the same bullet composition (not the new poly-metal matrix bullets), that a bullet with higher velocity and greater sectional density would have more penetration. Perhaps the 5.7 is an anomoly, but it is a sweet little round if it's over penetration is controllable.

[Gaddis 1,689]

Just read the article about Military Shotguns in this months issue of American Rifleman.

 

Pretty much deflates all of his arguments.

[Tokageko 8]

Everything I have heard and read says that police are not restricted to FMJ ammo.

 

For what it's worth: The SS190 load for the 5.7x28 is supposed to penetrate a CRISAT (simulates Russian class 3 body armor) target at.. 25 meters? That's if I'm remembering correctly. I think that loading is available to law enforcement officers in the US, but it is not available to Civilians. The civilian ammo consists of regular FMJ bullets (no steel core) and, I believe, at least one polymer tipped load. Bottom line is that I wouldn't trust it not to over-penetrate, in the event of a miss (assuming a frangible/deforming bullet was used), when shooting inside a building of modern construction.

 

As I've heard it, #4 Buck is the best compromise between lethality and risk of over-penetration for indoor use. I had the pleasure of speaking with a soldier who pulled guard duty at Guantanamo Bay for awhile. I couldn't resist asking about the weapons and ammo being used, as well as how they were deployed. According to him, they were using Mossbergs loaded with rubber shot. If they ever fired, it was at the ground in front of the target(s). Just something I thought I'd pass along.

[AKOK 4]

"Shotguns are for people that aren't confident in their abilities to hit a target with one projectile."

 

He gave you the best argument "for" in that statement so to speak...Shotguns are for people that aren't confident in ability to hit a target with one projectile in a given situation. ie...indoors where more firepower than a handgun is needed. Close in on fast moving multiple targets....give me the shotty...a short one at that!

 

Believe me....they are still very much in use here in Cherokee Co. Ga. .....Ive seen them mounted in the crusiers.

Edited April 18, 2007 by akok

[DocV 0]

Handgun (pistol and revolver), carbine, long gun, and shotgun all have their applications and limitations depending on mission requirements. There is no overall, perfect weapon system although it seems that the handgun/patrol carbine combinition seems to address the greatest number of needs. I thinks what has stopped a number of departments from switching to carbines is a combinition of "We've always done it that way" plus cost plus concern about public perception.

 

Look at any well trained SWAT unit, infantry MOUT unit, or Navy/Coast Guard VBSS unit. There are troops with hand guns, shotguns, carbines, and long guns. Each has a specific responsibility and use for his weapon. To make a blanket statement like your correspondent is just plain ignorant.

 

DocV

[SuAside 2]

Everything I have heard and read says that police are not restricted to FMJ ammo.

 

For what it's worth: The SS190 load for the 5.7x28 is supposed to penetrate a CRISAT (simulates Russian class 3 body armor) target at.. 25 meters? That's if I'm remembering correctly. I think that loading is available to law enforcement officers in the US, but it is not available to Civilians. The civilian ammo consists of regular FMJ bullets (no steel core) and, I believe, at least one polymer tipped load. Bottom line is that I wouldn't trust it not to over-penetrate, in the event of a miss (assuming a frangible/deforming bullet was used), when shooting inside a building of modern construction.

only normal that the armor piercing rounds aren't available to the general public. real copkillers.

 

the biggest differences between the rounds is that the AP round stays intact upon impact, penetrates armor and then start tumbling like mad. the civie rounds break up and fragment completely.

 

for european structures there really isn't a problem for the overpenetration issue, i hear (not for the AP rounds & not for the civie ones). of course, in the USA that might not be the case since you guys often use wooden structures etc.

 

As I've heard it, #4 Buck is the best compromise between lethality and risk of over-penetration for indoor use.

*shrugs* we eurotrash have brick & cinderblock walls. over-penetration isn't a huge issue.

 

besides, i doubt i'll ever need to defend myself in my own home. (modest house in a road full of villas, calm town, dead end road full of houses,...)

 

*snip*

yup, that's what i figured, doc.

[Griz 1]

A true story that actually happened!

 

In 1976 I purchased an Ithaca #37 police riot. Eight round capacity w/o plug.

Now the muzzle of the Ithaca is underbored to allow for accuracy from slugs.

 

Friends of mine had a small range set up at President Peak near Olympia, state capital.

Ranged shots went from 15 yards to about 130 yards [155 paces].

 

That old scattergun hit everything at all ranges! Slugs [brennekes were the rage at the time]

fed flawlessly. At ranges staring at fifty yartds I held the trigger down and cycled through

the magazine without injury to my shoulder. The accuracy did not diminish one iota.

JUMP AHEAD 31 YEARS

 

So I purchased the 19" Saiga 12 and wanted to convert it into

a hunting shotgun. No pistol grip, no picatinny rail. I did so and late

last year got my second Saiga 12 with a 24" Bbl.

 

Has anybody got the specs on velocities, Energies of slugs from a 24" barrel?

just my 18.5 cents*

-Griz

*Inflation

[Tokageko 8]

SuA: You're definately right about the differences between American construction vs. European construction. Over-penetration has always been an issue here. As for the AP load of the 5.7x28: it's disallowed to civilians based on our legal restriction from buying "Armor Piercing Handgun Ammunition." Since the FiveseveN is readily available and was here well before the P90 - as well as the fact that 5.7x28 isn't a standard military cartridge here - we poor civilians aren't allowed to have it.

 

I would like to point out though that the M855 (green-tip 5.56 NATO) and armor-piercing 30-06 are specifically exempted from that clause. This is why AR 15 pistols are legal for use with said ammo. ((doing my best to head off an argument before it starts))