KySoldier 2 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Yeah, there is a lawyer here in KY that writes laws and works in the capitol. He's got my friend convinced that a pistol grip is still illegal, even with US parts. I need links to ATF sites that say that we CAN legally do it now! I've found 922r... http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html and the "parts count" law... http://squid.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/get-c...ON=39&TYPE=TEXT Still, these laws just say we can't convert to PG with imported parts...where does it say how we can? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 a LAWYER huh. i used to go on what they said, and you see how right ive been when it counts, right Ky? im buying two more if i can manage the money soon.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonaxe 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 oh yeh, Ky, cornell.edu is 100% fer shit sure read it as it was written ok for reference. im sure that your friend told you that. anything there is written in ink somewhere. the one thing I like about ny, is you KNOW there is a law against "that". its just a matter of finding out what "that" law is and circumventing it legally in whatever fashion presents itself. such is the gun laws. the rich dont have these problems. only us "lower" folk. I would find out what your lawyer friend is saying about whats going on right now, and tell us, so that we know what hanous laws are coming next. anybody figure out what happened to the brady bill this past week? it was set to expire. that is the law made to slow handgun sales and to make all handgun buyers go through background checks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonaxe 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 When I read the 922r that you link, it sounds like the assault weapons ban... but only in relation to magazine capacity. What exactly is 922r? Whenever I read the assault weapons ban, it was always something someone trimmed down to the assault weapons stuff. In this 922r it even talks about mag limits to 5 rounds for "rifles". I have an SL8 which is imported, and that has a 10rd mag, so I'm a little confused... Is this some state law for KY? I searched the whole law and I didn't find shit about pistol grips or folding stocks(except for the appendixes of all the different rifles that I'm assuming are legal to own because it's talking about bolt actions and over/under shotguns). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Yeah, there is a lawyer here in KY that writes laws and works in the capitol. He's got my friend convinced that a pistol grip is still illegal, even with US parts. I need links to ATF sites that say that we CAN legally do it now! just ask for a copy of the law, it saves arguments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Salmonaxe 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 I'm sorry I can't give you an official link, the one I have from the ATF doesn't work anymore! The 922r is the paragraph from the 89 ban that still applies, if you read the ATF faq, they say that. It is the one that prohibits you from importing parts and assemblying here, a gun that can't be imported anyway. By using US parts you can though, which is why people are doing PGs on their S-12 now. If you look at the above 94 ban, it prohibited our S-12s from having a detachable mag AND PG. I just went and wrote out this big long thing, and then I realised that you are only talking about 922 Section: {r} !!!! Boy, I could see the sky from the clouds... So, was it the rest of 922 that is actually considered the assault weapons ban??? Because 922 Section: (v) sure sounds like the assault weapons ban to me. Why is it that the rest of the 89 ban 922 isn't in effect? ....and how the heck are we supposed to know that? Well, if that's the truth, then it's no matter, because if there's no law about it, the saiga12 with the proper number of parts(10 import, 3 domestic) should be legal in any configuration. Even with an 8rd mag. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 KY: I have the pdf versions of the federal laws from 2000 if you want me to email them to you. also, the new york AWB is a copy of the old federal law, but has a couple of small additions to it, like I posted in the thread with me bitching about it. I DONT know how much of the NFA has the 922 additions in it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Thank you Bvamp, but I won't need them now I don't think. I talked to the lawyer on the phone today and we agreed that I should contact the ATF for the "official" ruling. I was talking to him today regarding my NFA transfer, the M11/9 that was being transferred to me has made it to the dealer here in KY and is now ready to go to me....but.....the sherriff here said he and the other three people that can sign them in my county DON'T. He said he's seen alot of these forms and just won't sign them. He said he wouldn't want me to have it "stolen and used in a crime." I told him I already bought a safe for it, but he wouldn't waiver. I'm going to try the others in town, hopefully someone will sign so I can legally possess the gun I'VE ALREADY BOUGHT! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Sorry to hijack this thread.... KYSoldier, who is handling your paperwork for you Form 4 transfer ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rocko 0 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 (edited) Edited September 18, 2004 by rocko Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Saiga-12 is not a DD until THEY state that it is... period. I cannot stand up and declare it a DD anymore than you can... They leave these laws generic, vague and not clear cut, so they can twist it to fit their needs. The Secretary of the Treasury was the one who declared the USAS-12 and the StreetSweeper to be DDs. Now BATF is part of the Justice Dept. and fall under the Attorney General the Honorable John Ashcroft who has stated that believes that the 2nd Ammendment protects the right of the individual to keep and bear arms... We need more like him in .gov ------------ 922® applies to ANY semi-auto firearm that has MORE than 10 imported parts.... If the firearm has 10 or LESS imported parts then 922® doesnt have anything to do with it.. At that point it is considered a DOMESTIC firearm by law ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rocko 0 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 (edited) Well, while that has been what has happened historically, I'm not sure that is what the law requires. With the SS and the USAS, we were talking about factory configured rifles. Since the ATF originally allowed them for import, they implicitly declared them to be "sporting", and as such removed them from consideration as a DD. No such thing has happened in this case - in fact the opposite. By disallowing their import in that configuration, they've implicitly said they they aren't considered "sporting". The question is whether or not they will need to stand up and specifically say "the saiga-12 (or any SG) with such and such features is a DD" OR if saying it is "non-sporting" and having a bore over .5" is enough. The way the law reads, they don't have to make any official declaration - it reads that anything with a bore over .5" is a DD by default, except a SG that the Secretary finds to be "sporting" (paraphrasing, obviously), and we already know the latter is false. What I meant about 922 ( r ), was that saying if assembled in a configuration, consisting of all imported parts, that would be in violation of 922 ( r ), then that configuration has been implicity declared to be "non-sporting". Otherwise, it would be allowed for import in that configuration. I believe this is dangerous ground for anything with a bore over .5" that likely legally puts it into DD territory. Not saying that they'll go around arresting folks, but from what I've heard, people seem to assume that if they start persuing this, they'll give another free anmensty registration period like for the SS and USAS. I'm not sure that will be the case, because of the reasons stated above - factory configuration previously implicitly found to be "sporting" vs. aftermarket build known to be considered "non-sporting". Unfortunately, despite Ashcroft's previous voting record and supposed 2A stance, I no longer think he's on our side. There have been a number of new restrictions and crackdowns since Bush came into office that I'd think he'd have been able to control otherwise - think of the new demill regulations, and all the door to door kit confiscations in the past couple of years. Rocko Edited September 18, 2004 by rocko Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rocko 0 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 (edited) Hmm... then again, I don't think any of the LE saiga's are registered are DD's, which is an argument in our favor. Restricted title I devices, but not NFA unless it's an SBS. And I think a DD classification "trumps" an SBS as well. Well, not the first time all the dots in our legal system and ATF's opinion don't quite connect, I guess. Edited September 18, 2004 by rocko Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Well, while that has been what has happened historically, I'm not sure that is what the law requires. With the SS and the USAS, we were talking about factory configured rifles. Since the ATF originally allowed them for import, they implicitly declared them to be "sporting", and as such removed them from consideration as a DD. there has to be a determation by the Secretary that is is a DD, and why before it is. you can find the ones for the USAS on line. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted September 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 The lawyer suggested I email the ATF, I did, and they responded with saying I should contact them via writing. They will not answer technical questions via email. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 please let us know when you hear back Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Regarding "sporting purposes": I use my Saiga in fully sanctioned IDPA and IPSC tactical competition. This is a legitimate international sporting event/competition. Tactical rifles, pistols and shotguns are at the heart of the sport. WHile the Secretary may have not been informed of the many tens of thousands of people world-wide who participate in this sport, he would be hard pressed to deny the existence of my membership, and the sport's headquarters. Please, in any correspondence to the BATFE, be courteous, and remind them of such sporting purposes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Very good points, inparidel ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 I hate posting something I "read a while back" with out a link. Maybe someone else will know where this is. In my early reading, more than a year back, there was a specific mention of shooting sports NOT counting as sporting purposes. Made me mad then, makes me madder now If you break this down, they've already started the peoples firearms = hunting firearms arguement. Blech Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.