Odd pistol grip / stock conversion, and a 922r question

[Rogue-Sasquatch 0]

Hi. Just registered, and have a question about a Saiga mod that's a bit off the beaten path. I have a 16" 7.62 sporter carbine, and I want to put a pistol grip and a stock on it--but not the normal way.

 

I'm using CAD software to make an adapter that I can attach to the original rear stock trunion; then I can attach a US made AK pistol grip to anAK pistol grip nut that's built into the bottom of the adapter, and an AR-15 style collapsible stock, via AR buffer tube threads at the back of the adapter. It would position the pistol grip correctly to use the factory 'repositioned' trigger, which I actually kind of like. Keeps my fingers away from the pinchy parts of the selector lever and the mag well / mag release tab.

 

My goal here is to make the changes completely reversible if I want. I kind of like the M14 style lines of the stock sporter with a 30 rnd AK mag, so I may shoot it that way sometimes, but I also want the pistol grip and AR stock for some competitive shooting coming up.

 

 

My big question is this: what kind of 922r problems am I facing now, since I don't want to drill rivets or do anything except swap drop-in parts? I can use US-made mags with alterations to the mags to make them feed, and the buttstock will obviously be US made. That's 4 parts. What else do I need?

 

 

 

Also--if I get this adapter to work, who else wants one? They're cheaper to make in larger batches.

[vzagumennyy 0]

it's not about what u put in....but about what u pull out. all you seem to be pulling out is the buttstock, thats only one imported part. look at some of the thread's in the tech section, it'll be there. oh and about 922r....you're already screwed just by using the high-caps. u might as well convert it. unless u REALLY love the trigger...then talk to battlerifleg3, he has a few tricks up his sleeves.

 

oh, come to think, there already is an adapter plug that lets you use standard folders and other junk on the saiga, a while ago they used to be all over gunbroker. but either they realized the setup was illigal or nobody bought them. dunno. off the top of my head, can't name the company that makes the block....oh nevermind. ACE reciever block, yeah thats it.

Edited June 8, 2007 by vladimirzagumennyy

[Navy87Guy 1]

You will need to comply with 922R if you add the pistol grip and use the hi cap mags. That said, your buttstock and pistol grip count as 2 compliant parts. If you replace the FCG, then you're at 5 and you're compliant.

 

Never having tried a pistol grip/buttstock in the original trigger location, it's hard to judge how the rifle would feel. It would be interesting to seem some Photoshopped pics of what you envision the final product to look like.

 

Jim

[vzagumennyy 0]

That said, your buttstock and pistol grip count as 2 compliant parts. If you replace the FCG, then you're at 5 and you're compliant.

 

Jim

 

again, it's about what the total imported parts inthe rifle. he's only removing the buttstock. and unless he talks to BRG3 he's kinda stuck with the sear and hammer as so out of the fiveparts he would be removing in the case of a regular conversion, he'd be stuck withthree again, it's about bringing the imported parts count down, not the U.S. parts count UP. still not simple enough? oh and here's a pic of what it may wind up looking like, some idiot is trying to seel this. it's illigal.

[Rogue-Sasquatch 0]

I understand 922r, vladimir... I was asking about which 922r parts the Saiga included to double-check my thinking.

 

You can stop yelling now.

 

And no, it wouldn't necessarily look something like that. I'm thinking more, say, the attached photochop I just put together (sorry about the quick and dirty painting--it's not up to my usual standard at work).

 

I am not going to drill out rivets, so please stop telling me to "just do it anyway". I don't have the tools, access to the tools, money for the tools, or even space to USE the tools. I also do not want to permanently modify the gun. I want any changes I make to be modular part swaps *only*. Which is the whole reason I started working on this adapter.

 

 

Since the buttstock would now be US manufactured, that leaves, what, 12 foreign parts?

 

Replacing the gas piston (or maybe a different easily swappable part) and the forward handguard would bring me into 922r compliance, right?

[Navy87Guy 1]

The basic Saiga sporter model has 14 parts that count toward 922R. Adding the pistol grip puts you at 15.

 

Your buttstock and pistol grip would be US - that leaves you at 13 foreign parts. So by my count, you need to replace 3 more. Now, you can get around the entire replacement issue by using completely US-made magazines (body, floor plate and follower). That would make you fully compliant - but if you ever used a non-US magazine you'd be busting 922R again.

 

Handguard is easy - TAPCO makes a Galil-style specifically for the Saiga. Others can tell you how hard (or easy) it is to replace the gas piston.

 

Here are the Saiga parts that count:

 

1) Receiver

(2) Barrel

(3) Trunnion

(4) Bolt

(5) Bolt carrier

(6) Gas piston

(7) Trigger

(8) Hammer

(9) Disconnecter

(10) Buttstock

(11) Forearm handguards

(12) Magazine body

(13) Follower

(14) Floorplate

 

Pistol grip and muzzle device would make 16.

 

 

Hope this helps,

 

Jim

 

ETA:

 

Hey, vladimir -- it's about the total parts count. If you add countable parts, you need more US made parts. There's no guarantee that someone is always going to add a US part. So you have to know the total number of countable parts and work backwards from there toward compliance. Simple enough for you??

Edited June 9, 2007 by Navy87Guy

[TEXASAK73 13]

I just got say,those aftermarket no mod stock sets are gay.Even Elton John would agree.

[vzagumennyy 0]

yeah, sorry guys, i was just getting the wrong impression and now i get the drift. 14....hmmm hey, did u guys ever find out if ace still sell reciever blocks?

 

well, sear and hammer, is easy, then your down to 12, and then the buttstock idea of yours, now you're at 11 and then maybe the gas piston, brings 10....ooooh, the magic number. then u still have a handgaurd u can easily swap. now you're at 9 imported parts....but without the sear and hammer (more or less a conversion in itself) u are stuck at 11 parts and i'm stumped as to what else you can swap.

 

again i apologize guys, thanks for the inputs.

[Navy87Guy 1]

yeah, sorry guys, i was just getting the wrong impression and now i get the drift. 14....hmmm hey, did u guys ever find out if ace still sell reciever blocks?

 

I think the answer is "yes" - but which style are you talking about? I just installed the internal (aka, "cut the dang tang") block on my Saiga conversion. They also have the "no mod required" style, but that sticks out further and a lot of people think it looks kind of goofy.

 

And no worries -- everyone is just trying to help each other out around here!

 

Jim

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I just got say,those aftermarket no mod stock sets are gay.Even Elton John would agree.

ROFL!

Couldn't have said it better myself. Scary visions of Liberace toting a shortcutted Saiga come to mind ...EWWWW!

 

Anyone considering putting one opf those silly things on their Saiga (Ace included) try this and see what you think.

Get your hands on one somehow or install it on your Saiga. Then find a regular AK or a properly converted Saiga.

Hold one in each hand by the PG and see how long you can hold both of them straihght out in front of you. I'll bet you money that the goofiest looking one drops first. NUFF SAID.

[csspecs 1,987]

Just change the buttstock and buy US made magazines. 14-4 = 10

Edited June 10, 2007 by csspecs

[uzitiger 193]

You might as well convert your Saiga. You can add the new ATI folding collapsible stock, a US made pistol grip, hammer, trigger and disconnector and you'll be complying with the idiotic USC922r parts count. You can also get a Tapco plastic magazine follower and Falcon Arms magazine base plate (they also have a steel follower). Another stock choice is Tapco's AR style stock.

[Rogue-Sasquatch 0]

You might as well convert your Saiga

 

Remember further up where I said that kind of reply wasn't helpful?

 

...yeah. I don't have the time, the tools, the money for the tools, the space for the tools, or even the desire to do that kind of alteration. Thanks for playing!

 

 

I've decided to go gas piston, buttstock, foregrip, and swap the hammer (since all of these changes can be restored to the original configuration).

 

I've also got US made pro-mags, just to be on the safe side--but with those first 4, I should even be able to use foreign mags if I decide to.

[JK-47 33]

After working out my own non-conversion complaince rifle, I realize the following: The conversion is easy. People seem to think the drilling of rivets is some sort of heresy. I replaced my FCG with one of DINZAG'S modified G2, so that it would drop into an unconverted saiga, and I'm working on drilling the piston and replacing it this weekend. Whatever amount of work you do trying to make complaince in some unique way, it will consistently be less effecient than the plain old conversion to AK pistol grip. The gun was designed to be one of two ways, a sporter- left alone and used AS IS, or converted to an AK with pistol grip. The sort of grey area inbetween, the weird pseudo-dragunov stocks and ace adapters and half way between this-and-that methods seem to just put your rifle into limbo. I think people who are hesitant to convert should either DO IT, or DON'T. Having a rifle in the grey area between the two doesn't seemt o give most people what they want. I actualy really like what I've done with my rifle, keeping the original stock and adding 3 fcg parts and a piston, but when I see how easy it would be to just do the whole conversion, it makes me wonder why I went throught the trouble when going all the way to a pistol grip would have been about the same amount of work and expense.

Edited June 27, 2007 by JK-47

[Rogue-Sasquatch 0]

Once more, with feeling!

 

I don't have the time, the tools, the money for the tools, the space for the tools, or even the desire to do that kind of alteration. Thanks for playing!

 

I really should set that to music.

 

My goal isn't to hit some halfway zone--my goal is reversibility.

 

The hammer is replaceable without drilling anything; so is the gas piston, foregrip, and buttstock. That's four right there, and enough to make the rifle 922r compliant in any form.

 

In CAD-ing out this buttstock adapter, I also want to give others in my situation--I.E, those without access to the expensive tools needed to properly WESCOG the Saiga into a pistol grip form--a way to get something comparable. Since I've figured out how to meet 922r compliance with drop-in parts (hammer, buttstock, foregrip, gas piston, plus US mags for good measure), I can bet there are others who'd like that solution as well.

[JK-47 33]

The hammer is replaceable without drilling anything; so is the gas piston, foregrip, and buttstock.

Well, best of luck. The gas piston will absolutely need to be drilled out if you want to replace it however. Use an ak74 piston or other shortened to 6". I replaced my 3 part FCG with a modified Tapco G2, didn't have to drill a damn thing (or even replace the shepards hook- I just kept the original) and got 3 compliance parts from it. Best part though is that it drasticaly improved the trigger.

[Rogue-Sasquatch 0]

I replaced my 3 part FCG with a modified Tapco G2, didn't have to drill a damn thing (or even replace the shepards hook- I just kept the original)

 

How'd you get the FCG (besides the hammer) out and the bottom plate that goes over the pistol grip hole off without drilling...?

[TheGunHustler 3]

it dosent have to come off to remove the fire control group

[Navy87Guy 1]

In CAD-ing out this buttstock adapter, I also want to give others in my situation--I.E, those without access to the expensive tools needed to properly WESCOG the Saiga into a pistol grip form--a way to get something comparable. Since I've figured out how to meet 922r compliance with drop-in parts (hammer, buttstock, foregrip, gas piston, plus US mags for good measure), I can bet there are others who'd like that solution as well.

 

I hate to burst your bubble, but it already exists -- ACE offers exactly what you're designing: http://riflestocks.com/catalog/product_inf...products_id=316

 

Just add a pig nose (i.e., CAR stock adapater) and/or a folding stock mechanism and you can put any stock you want on there.

 

I don't think you'll find as many people as you expect who care about the reversibility -- most people seem to avoid the conversion because they think it's too hard. Regardless, I don't see how you hope to be competitive in the market place with a company like ACE if you have to develop the design and the manufacturing of the same kind of part. As far as expense, your method actually costs more than a full conversion, because you have to buy a gas piston and handguard to meet 922R -- a converted Saiga does that with the 3 parts of the FCG. (and you're already buying one - or at least spending the same amount - to get the hammer.)

 

As far as "expensive tools" for the conversion -- a hand drill and a Dremel tool. They run about $30 each, and they have 101 uses. Frankly, if someone can't afford that then they probably should rethink buying a rifle that's pretty expensive to feed.

 

It's your time, effort and money but it looks to me like you're trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

Jim

[PsychoticReaction 0]

I guess the question is: Why do you need this reversible? Is this some kind of Kalifornia non-compliant one minute, compliant the next sort of thing? "Honey, the cops are at the door! You'd better convert your rifle back to the way it came! I'll hold them off for an hour!" Are you planning to manufacture this adaptor? If so, I think that the responses on here will be indicative of market interest.

If you don't plan to try to market this, it seems that it would be easier to do the conversion than to make a prototype. Mine took me longer than most because of a nasty tremor I have, installing the hammer backwards, trying to put the bolt hold-open back in, and using the original pin retaning spring, etc. Maybe six hours.

Are you willing to possibly lose some of the reliability of the AK design by leaving in more parts than it actually needs?

Play your little song all you want, but I, for one, am just trying to understand the rationale for something, that to me, makes no sense.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

"I don't have the time, the tools, the money for the tools, the space for the tools, or even the desire to do that kind of alteration. Thanks for playing!" - I was thinking of making a pro-gun/heritage CD someday, and that sounds like a winner.

 

My thoughts are this: Don't want to convert? Make the most of your stock configuration. Use US compliance parts if desired and/or needed for the final config. Do something that has some practical, physical advantage over the conversion, not just reversibility.

 

This is my idea of how to get the advantages of a P-grip in a non-converted Saiga:

 

Advantages of the classic styled stock include more effective use of a bayonet, lower center of gravity, and in some cases better speed bringing from the hip to the shoulder. All of those are lost when you put a full p-grip on a non-converted Saiga, and you have the center of gravity issue too that was discussed earlier.

 

I won't argue, but it's hard for me to imagine the cost and work of designing and machining an adaptor block to be worse than doing the standard p-grip conversion.

 

Per your musical response to the pleas for you to convert:

 

Time - I can convert in 2 hours. Bet you spent more time on the computer and in communication about having it manufactured.

 

Tools or money for tools - Black and Decker rotary tool at Wal-Mart: $30 on a bad day. Keyless chuck drill at harbor freight - $10. Drill bits - $10 max. Punches - Use a drywall screw. Get about 50 extras for $5. Screws and nuts - $2. Hammer - trick question, any household tool or other object is actually a hammer in disguise. Or pay $5 for a hammer that's limited to being just a hammer. So we're looking at about $62 for stuff anyone technical enough to work with CAD should already have several of in their basement.

 

Space for the tools - Small suitcase, duffle bag, or box will carry them all. See the above if you're a technical guy and don't consider them a high enough priority. In a college dorm room I built a slide-on augmentation of a bunk bed. Cut, drilled, and everything.

 

Desire to do such a thing - guess I can't argue with you there. But if you have a desire for a pistol grip, doing the conversion is the only way to make it worth it, in my opinion.

[Rogue-Sasquatch 0]

I hate to burst your bubble, but it already exists -- ACE offers exactly what you're designing:

 

PERFECT!

 

Then I don't have to make one!

 

Thank you for pointing me to that. I've got a replacement hammer and gas piston and US made mags that I've modded to Saiga-feed--that, however, is the crown jewel.

 

One last question--does that 'Tactical Saiga Handguard' I've seen floating around the net only fit the Saiga 12, or does it fit the other carbines as well...?

[Navy87Guy 1]

One last question--does that 'Tactical Saiga Handguard' I've seen floating around the net only fit the Saiga 12, or does it fit the other carbines as well...?

 

Do you have a link? The only Saiga-specific handguard I've seen is the Galil-style from TAPCO. It's special because it inlcudes the adapter to make it fit, since the Saiga doesn't come with a lower retainer.

 

Jim

[Rogue-Sasquatch 0]

This one...

 

 

...here: http://www.copesdist.com/ak47.htm (about 5/8ths of the way down, next to the foreign made Saiga pistol grip / folding stock combo we all know so well)

 

 

Crap, it's made in Russia. Can't use it.

[Navy87Guy 1]

This one...

 

 

...here: http://www.copesdist.com/ak47.htm (about 5/8ths of the way down, next to the foreign made Saiga pistol grip / folding stock combo we all know so well)

 

 

Crap, it's made in Russia. Can't use it.

 

You said you have a gas piston, hammer, US mags -- plus the pistol grip and buttstock. That's 7 parts -- so you don't need the handguard for compliance. If you like the look and the functionality, then go for it. Now, if you like the idea of a rail - you can probably get it a lot cheaper by having Devin install one for you. Just a thought...

 

Jim