Wait a minute. 12gauge shells are DD's?

[Conju 2]

So if the saiga-12 does become classified DD, do the shells themselves also become dd's and there fore subject to a tax of 200 per shell? I read a little quip about that and am curious.

[kresk 10,063]

Streetsweepers are DD's but never heard of the shells being regulated as such, so don't think would be the case if S12's are declared the same. But, the ATF can do whatever they want...........

Edited September 13, 2007 by tritium

[scoutjoe 276]

well that might get the fudds on our side....or they'd all be shooting 20 gauges...

[GTwannabe 1]

All centerfire weapons with a bore > .50" are Destructive Devices, unless they receive a sporting exemption from the BATF. That means that every 12 gauge is a DD unless the BATF issues the design a sporting exemption.

 

The Striker/Streetsweeper never received a sporting exemption from the BATF. They never "became" or were "declared" DD's... they were always DD's from the beginning. However, the manufacturer managed to sell a small number of these DD's to the public as sporting shotguns before the BATF found out. Rather than take the guns away from the owners who had unwittingly illegally purchased DD's, the BATF allowed owners to register the weapons as DD's.

 

The Saiga 12's legally imported into the US already have a "ruling" on their status as DD's. They were issued a sporting exemption, and therefore are not DD's. If Izmash changes the Saiga 12's import configuration, it loses its sporting exemption and must re-qualify. If the new config fails, Saiga 12's imported after the reclassification are DD's.

[Trueno 4]

So if the saiga-12 does become classified DD, do the shells themselves also become dd's and there fore subject to a tax of 200 per shell? I read a little quip about that and am curious.

 

So...just where did you read this little quip?

 

t

[kmoore 3]

All centerfire weapons with a bore > .50" are Destructive Devices, unless they receive a sporting exemption from the BATF. That means that every 12 gauge is a DD unless the BATF issues the design a sporting exemption.

 

The Striker/Streetsweeper never received a sporting exemption from the BATF. They never "became" or were "declared" DD's... they were always DD's from the beginning. However, the manufacturer managed to sell a small number of these DD's to the public as sporting shotguns before the BATF found out. Rather than take the guns away from the owners who had unwittingly illegally purchased DD's, the BATF allowed owners to register the weapons as DD's.

 

The Saiga 12's legally imported into the US already have a "ruling" on their status as DD's. They were issued a sporting exemption, and therefore are not DD's. If Izmash changes the Saiga 12's import configuration, it loses its sporting exemption and must re-qualify. If the new config fails, Saiga 12's imported after the reclassification are DD's.

 

GT, this is very well worded.

 

But this is different in small detail from what I've understood. And please realize that I don't know the exact history of the street sweeper.

 

Here's how I understand it, if you don't mind I'd love your thoughts, and maybe a reference or two.

 

All shotguns (other than .410) are over .5 inches.

All shotguns were granted a sporting exemption as sporting weapons.

Some (named) shotguns had that exemption revoked, as they were found "not sporting". Of course we are talking about the usas12, striker and str sweeper.

 

All shotguns, both existing and yet to be developed, are sporting untill that designation is revoked. The point being that if I invented a three bbl break open shotgun I would not need to approach the ATF/sec of treasury to have it deemed sporting, it would be so by fact that it wasn't on the list of revoked guns. Now if I created a 10 barrel shotgun it would also be a sporting shotgun, but expectation would be that it would quickly be deemed unsporting and have it's inherent exemption revoked.

 

It gets a bit confusing when we talk about foriegn guns as there are importation issues. This is the reason that the Saiga has to be imported in a sporting manner, but it's completely legal to make a domestic pistol gripped mag fed shotgun by following the 922 r guidelines in your conversions. For me, this becomes confusing as both utilize the judgement of "sporting purpose" for two different criteria.

Edited September 14, 2007 by kmoore

[kresk 10,063]

I think rounds may be considered DD's when they are specific only for DD's, unlike 12g shells.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

[MD_Willington 11]

So if the saiga-12 does become classified DD, do the shells themselves also become dd's and there fore subject to a tax of 200 per shell? I read a little quip about that and am curious.

 

So...just where did you read this little quip?

 

t

 

 

I saw your response at the AK Forum ...LOL... everyones scared of the drum...

[Conju 2]

http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsgarchive...mes;read=484246

 

What is the ITAR fee?

[dayanx 1]

And all because of identical foreign parts and a friggin Monte Carlo stock? Why does beuracracy have to be so stupid?

 

I read the same thing in the LEO magazines how police departments are denied certain weapons not for liability, not for being overpowered, but for LOOKING imposing.

 

Sorry but whether it's a M-134 or a double barrel Winchester aimed at me- I'm just as dead.

[GTwannabe 1]

All centerfire weapons with a bore > .50" are Destructive Devices, unless they receive a sporting exemption from the BATF. That means that every 12 gauge is a DD unless the BATF issues the design a sporting exemption.

 

The Striker/Streetsweeper never received a sporting exemption from the BATF. They never "became" or were "declared" DD's... they were always DD's from the beginning. However, the manufacturer managed to sell a small number of these DD's to the public as sporting shotguns before the BATF found out. Rather than take the guns away from the owners who had unwittingly illegally purchased DD's, the BATF allowed owners to register the weapons as DD's.

 

The Saiga 12's legally imported into the US already have a "ruling" on their status as DD's. They were issued a sporting exemption, and therefore are not DD's. If Izmash changes the Saiga 12's import configuration, it loses its sporting exemption and must re-qualify. If the new config fails, Saiga 12's imported after the reclassification are DD's.

 

GT, this is very well worded.

 

But this is different in small detail from what I've understood. And please realize that I don't know the exact history of the street sweeper.

 

Here's how I understand it, if you don't mind I'd love your thoughts, and maybe a reference or two.

 

All shotguns (other than .410) are over .5 inches.

All shotguns were granted a sporting exemption as sporting weapons.

Some (named) shotguns had that exemption revoked, as they were found "not sporting". Of course we are talking about the usas12, striker and str sweeper.

 

All shotguns, both existing and yet to be developed, are sporting untill that designation is revoked. The point being that if I invented a three bbl break open shotgun I would not need to approach the ATF/sec of treasury to have it deemed sporting, it would be so by fact that it wasn't on the list of revoked guns. Now if I created a 10 barrel shotgun it would also be a sporting shotgun, but expectation would be that it would quickly be deemed unsporting and have it's inherent exemption revoked.

 

It gets a bit confusing when we talk about foriegn guns as there are importation issues. This is the reason that the Saiga has to be imported in a sporting manner, but it's completely legal to make a domestic pistol gripped mag fed shotgun by following the 922 r guidelines in your conversions. For me, this becomes confusing as both utilize the judgement of "sporting purpose" for two different criteria.

 

The Striker/Streetsweeper/USAS are a special case. They are all foreign designs that an importer tried to bring into the US. The BATF decided they were unsporting, so they remained DD's and non-importable for civilian use. However, the importer decided to skirt the import restriction by importing the tooling and producing the weapons domestically. Naming these designs DD's is the BATF's method of preventing anyone else from selling a domestic Striker or USAS clone. The BATF never issued a sporting exemption to a revolving cylinder or converted fully-automatic shotgun before, so there was precedent. If the BATF tried to define all "Saiga" or "Kalashnikov-based action" or "detachable magazine" shotguns as "no sporting purpose" DD's, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on, since they have given shotguns with those qualities sporting exemptions.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Amen and Hallaleuja!