AK Accurracy

[Paladin 37]

We all here know better, but it's always good to hear from someone else. This was from a training session.

 

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=33277

[Azrial 1,091]

"-whoever told you that you cant hit with an AK at 500, lied to you. It's VERY doable."

YMMV.

[Paladin 37]

This is on the extreme end, I wouldn't engage at 500 yards. But after hearing that AK's can't hit anything past 200 yards over and over, it's reaffirming to hear different.

[NataSS Inc 0]

"You must be logged in to view this post"

 

Any way we can get you to cut and paste?

[Paladin 37]

Here you go. This is from Warrior Talk.com (I think that its pertinent that there were other platforms there and this was a combat rifle training session where there were no "gun test specials", just what normal people own.)

 

 

 

"Worland Wy, this weekend. we had 16 people show, 3 WT'ers. guns shot included, ar-15, 3 AK's, M1 Garands, M14, AR-10, SVT-40, XCR, Rem 700 sniper.

day 1

classic iron sighted rifles performed as expected on the 300-50 match. with the garand taking a 240 out of 300 and the SVT-40 139 out of 300. the AR-10 scoped took high honors tho, beating the garand shooter.

 

in the human wave attack, the garands performed much lower than the 20-30 round mag fed rifles getting off less than 75 rounds in 3 min. the mag feds did markedly better with the highest score going to an AK that managed 98 rounds and 89% hits. The XCR was on the way to domination when it Kaboomed.

 

day 2

we just sighted our guns and farted around on steel out to 600. Now I know this defy's conventional wisdom and everyone was really amazed at the results, BUUUT heres what we saw the AK do.

We sighted out to 300 on pulled and marked targets using stock IRON sights.

 

We moved back to 400 and proceeded to put rounds on steel with a spotter calling shots. using a Romanian wasr with a romy folder I was able to get about 85% hits on steel from prone with no problem. a few flyers and some shooter error were mostly responsible for misses. results were repeated by 4 other shooters on my gun and a VEPR as well.

 

At 500 we attempted again. we adjusted sights using only the factory ramp settings throughout the experiment having zeroed earlier out to 300. once again we were able to obtain 80% hits with relative ease using the "200 yard" AK. once again we verified using another shooter.

 

Back to 600!! once again spotted shots with wasr/folder. despite my best efforts I couldn't keep them on the steel more that 20% of the time.

600 seems to be the crossover point on a mansized target using ball ammo and service grade rifle. I have confirmed this with several rifles and feel that after 500 one must use a much more capable gun and ammo to consistently make hits. a rest/pack/bipod is alomost required at this range as well.

 

Ammo I was using was 762x39 Wolf 122gr HP black box. steel was 16"w x 36"h shaped like a sillouete. 5 mph half value wind at 25f and 4050ft elev. with a slight cow manure taste to the air.

 

comments

-the x39 was not really whacking the gong at these ranges and you could usually only hear a slight 'tink' it was definitly running out of gas at these ranges.

-the factory ramp sight settings seemed to be right on.

-the front sight is wider than the target, but by using a 6 o'clock hold and centering the target on the sight post, you can still be fairly accurate.

-i was using a pack and the mag for a rest. sometimes a loose mag would cause a failure to feed if i put pressure on the mag wrong. this might be gun related or mag related. not sure.

-I have wrapped the romy folder with some gauze then overwrapped with electrical tape. it's actually quite comfortable, looks fine and does not interfere with operation. the stock is not wobly in the least and fairly comfortable to shoot overall.

-the WASR was bone stock except for the folder, and prints about 4-5 MOA when i checked it with this ammo a coupla weeks ago.

-whoever told you that you cant hit with an AK at 500, lied to you. It's VERY doable."

[patriot 7,197]

I can routinely hit a 15gal drum with my AMD65 at ~400yds offhand. It's not great accuracy, but it's good enough for minute of bad guy accuracy.

[patriot 7,197]

doubletap. oops.

Edited January 8, 2008 by patriot

[macbeau 902]

With some judicious effort, I can consistantly hit a gallon milk jug or similar sized target - at 300 yds with my Glock 21 (.45acp) - within 3-10 "sighter" rounds... I doesn't mean that I'd be "lethal" at that range, or prefer to engage targets at that range; just that I am able to hit the target - which... is the first rule of marksmanship... I have always held that the hunting crowd has had too much influence on the "rest-of-us" crowd and that the 30-30 is plenty leathal out past 700 yds and that the Marines regularly shoot the lowly 5.56X45 NATO at 400+ and get good hit on "MAN-SIZED-TARGETS", yet this is unsuitable on game.... (Hell - the 45-70 GOVT proved lethal past 4000 yds in the 1880's - using 400+ grain bullets and black powder....)

 

Here is another thing to think about - in most states, you have to use an expanding (ie: soft point, hollow point, ballistic tip, etc...) bullet on "big game" (Deer) because it's "more humane" - and FMJ is strictly prohibited.... However - under most recognized "rule of war", ONLY FMJ may be used and being "MORE HUMANE"....?.?.?.?....

 

Anyway - given and decent rifle, decent ammo and shooter (motivation/intent), most rifles (Even .22LR) are lethal at ranges far greater than GUNS & AMMO or THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN would have you believe...

[The fine folks at Sheppard Scope have been shooting prarie dogs at 500+ yrds with .22lr (and their scopes) for many years now....]

 

Just my experience....

 

Macbeau...

Edited January 9, 2008 by macbeau

[k_dawg 0]

I would hazard a guess that this was all semi-automatic firing. The accuracy is substantially more divergent in automatic fire. In slow motion video, it's suprising how dramatically the AKM-47 whipped around in comparison to the M-16.

 

Other than that, the effective resolution of the sights is less. But as you have demonstrated, you can compensate for that.

[Paladin 37]

Your on to something Macbeau. IMO we read so many articles, advertisements, and posts about 1 MOA this and 1/2 MOA that- we get away from reality. A romanticized scenario where we're popping zombies 500 yards away is far from what commonly happens in a SHTF or even modern warfare with small arms.

 

Hunters get caught up in it too. The size of the kill zone on a medium sized animal like a deer is far larger than that little black dot that shows your rifle is 1 MOA.

 

So what if a rifle can shoot 1 MOA. In a real gunfight, with everyone shooting and moving it gives you zero advantage over an opponent with a rifle that shoots 3 MOA at the ranges that you'll realistically encounter.

 

I get tired of hearing that AK's are inaccurate, and you can't use them a 200+ yds..

[MD_Willington 11]

In a real gunfight, the AKM works... My coworker can attest to it... he was shot at with AKM's and he shot back with AKM's... he's still alive, I guess they work for their intended purpose...

[Ronswin 26]

In the rifle matches I attend I use either an Arsenal SLR-105 in 5.45 or a Vepr II in .223 due to the fact I am not a fan of the AR-15 rifle. I have engaged and hit targets at 350 yds. with 5.45 with a little effort and at the Ft. Benning match hit targets out to 400 meters with the Vepr II when I did my part. Yes, 7.62 Russian has a limited range and the rounds were probably pretty depleted of energy at 600 yds but, that is not within the intended design of that particular round/firearm combination. That whole comparison is an "apples vs. oranges" type of event.

I do find it interesting that same event a Robarms XCR rifle apparently DNF due to a severe breakage or major malfunction.

[Paladin 37]

Yes, that caught my eye too. I have been lusting after an XCR. First I heard there was a recall for a too soft sear, OK, it's a new gun it can happen. Then this about a Kaboom.

 

May have to scratch that one off my want list.

[747mech 1]

I'm not going to say that the (my) x39 can't hit beyond 200yds (and I'm not saying I can...)

But it would need to do some killing at that point. (Still wouldn't stand in front of one...)

I took my .308 out this year, 16" with Williams peep and 8x42 posp.

If my peep had still been PRESENT when the deer jumped....

One more reason for the Mojo.

I'd love to hear how a .308 would play at that match.

[IndyArms 10,186]

Just to point out... MORE HUMANE to a hunted animal means a quick kill, you want maximum energy transferred to the animal to take it down quick and clean. maximum expansion of the projectile.

 

More humane to a war situation as related to a FMJ, as you shoot to wound, removing 3 men from the battlefield not just leaving a dead guy on the ground. If a man is injured it takes others to help him to "safety" as opposed to a dead comrade, which is not. FMJ is designed to punch through the body doing minimal damage. I am not saying they dont kill or do major damage, just nothing like a hunting round is designed to do.

 

Thats the ironic difference.

 

 

[G O B 3,516]

Nothing ironic about it. The older I get the more I like animals and don't like people. Kill animals clean and mercifully. People - who cares? There ain't no shortage of them.

[macbeau 902]

Nothing ironic about it. The older I get the more I like animals and don't like people. Kill animals clean and mercifully. People - who cares? There ain't no shortage of them.

Ironically - This is my point exactly. I've never fired a round to "wound" either an animal or a bi-ped. Anytime I squeeze a trigger on something pumping blood, I intend it to die. That is what military training (and responsible hunting) teaches you. I don't subscribe to the "Allow your foe to fight another day" or allow them to raise offspring that do so...

Just the old snake-eater in me....

 

Macbeau sends...