Max range of 7.62x39

[Maestro 0]

I'm what's referred to as a survivalist and am looking into the Saiga as survival weapon because it is a low-cost relatively low-weight Main Battle Rifle (MBR). I'm trying to figure out if I need to get the x39 or .308 for sufficient range to penetrate a car at 500yds. I'm leaning towards x39 because it's cheaper, has 30rd steel mags (I'm distrustful of the long-term durability of polymer or plastic), and is a physically lighter round to carry.

So my question is this: is the x39 capable of punching through a car door at 500yds? If so, does anyone know where I can buy corrosive ammunition in bulk?

[saigafreake 27]

Kinda sounds like a gecko45 post

[saigafreake 27]

I would pick the 308 im sure it would plus u would have lot better chance to hit sumthing at 500 yards.

[kresk 10,063]

I'd lean towards the .308................

[jamesavery22 54]

I'm all for pondering SHTF or zombie scenarios. But how is this anything appropriate let alone "survival" material? In what scenario would anyone need to shoot through a car door at that distance in order to protect himself?

 

I know this is an open forum but doesn't this bother anyone else?

[saigafreake 27]

I made the gecko45 reference.

[Maestro 0]

Whoever gecko45 is I'm not him, and I'm talking societal collapse, major economy meltdown (we're talking EVERYTHING stops), military invasion by a foreign country, etc. May sound paranoid but if you guys would answer my question instead of postulating whether I'm a smurf it would be very nice.

[Starship1st 0]

Oil prices are up and driving the cost of food but we are a long ways off from an economy collapse and the end of our society?

 

Any way, the 7.62X39 is effective up to 300 yards maximum.

[jamesavery22 54]

So basically a Red Dawn scenario? Man I loved that movie.

[Gemmons 23]

Off topic a little but that movie was just on this weekend again. I watch it every time it's on even though I own the movie on DVD. I guess that's why we all own firearms, you never know it could happen.

[jamesavery22 54]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103856/

 

 

edit---

 

Nothing wrong with being paranoid. I don't own firearms for that reason though. They are fun and present limitless opportunities to modify them to ones liking. Anything that gives me an excuse to dremel is a good thing!

Edited April 28, 2008 by jamesavery22

[crunchy53 0]

<------- raises eyebrow

[Vultite 57]

saiga as a survival gun, thats plausable, but sniping at 500 yards, even tho a car is a large target, is not appropreiate for that weapon, if you need to do it and go cheap, go savage .308 otherwise, get a X39 saiga, buy some bulk ammo and call it a day

[UnidenStew 1]

[Maestro 0]

I'm already a reader of Rawles' blog, I've got some problems with certain strategies he has but 2000 rounds isn't sufficient for true long-term. Granted, I'll be stocking .30-06 for the sniping weapons, about 40,000 .22 for killing chickens, cows, and squirrels, and the local police department ammunition. The idea here is to minimize cost and weight. .308 rifles and ammunition are very heavy and .223 is too little power, I toyed with 6.8SPC but the firearms and ammunition are killer expensive (3 rounds FMJ .308 for 1 FMJ 6.8). I like .308 but the 7.62x39 comes with steel mags (I don't trust polymer mags nearly as far I can throw them) and is cheaper than the .223 I found.

500 yards and a car were nominal range values and targets, I think I could accept 300yds and killing a person. Now at 300yds how accurate is it with the (I think this is the length) 18.3" barrel? I'd go for .308 but it's bigger, heavier, and more expensive. Plus for semiauto fire Vultite is probably correct, leave the 500yds for the snipers. I'm more looking for an intermediate cartridge that will bridge the range vs. refire rate gap.

[saigafreake 27]

U can prolly get 6 to 9 in group at 300 depends on firing pos.

Edited April 28, 2008 by saigafreake

[CheepJerokee 0]

500 yards, I cant see that far without a scope.

My buddy has a Barrett 50 and he practices at 300.......and he's one of those that wants spent uranium rounds!

Ya, the .308 for shure.

Just MHO, but if it's 500 yds away and standin still...........I'm running the other way.

[rangerdavid 6]

500 yards and a car, hmmmmmm. Depends on if you're trying to stop the car, or hit a passenger or driver. Actually, for either of those options, the AK or Saiga is not your best bet. If you want to stop a vehicle, the Barrett sniper system is your sure thing bet. Every time. No exceptions (assuming you can hit what you point it at). If stopping the vehicle is not your primary objective, there are other affordable sniper systems available that will be far out perform any AK or AR on the market. Here's a link to one system on Sniper Central:

 

https://www.snipercentral.com/entrypackage.htm

 

Here are the specs on that:

# Howa 1500 Heavy Barreled Action, 24" barrel length

# .308 (1:12"), .243 (1:10"), .22-250(1:14"), .223(1:12")

# Bell & Carlson Tactical/Varmint Medalist Synthetic Stock (Mk1), full aluminum bedding block, free floating barrel

# New B&C Vertical Grip Tactical Stock (Mk2), full aluminum bedding block, free floating barrel (No charge option)

# Legacy International 1 Piece Picatinny Rail

# Burris XTR Tactical Rings

# Bushnell 3200 10x Tactical Scope with mildots

# Harris Bipod, solid mount, 9-13" or Versa-pod 9-13"

# Plastic double rifle hard gun case

 

For under a grand, its the best tack driver for the dollar you'll find. NIB, and custom made. So, if you're really interested in saving your ass, and not just bragging to your friends about the safe full of guns you got and how you'll kick ass if the SHTF, it's quality and marksmanship that count. I wouldn't want to put my life in the hands of some piece of crap (like the shit built by the drunk monkeys at Century ) sorry, couldn't resist. Inside 250 yards, I'll take my saiga and I will rely on that. I am not prepared to ask the weapon to do something it was not made to do, and couldn't do effectively.

 

Good luck!!! BTW, got your night vision yet? just got mine in, and damn that shit is cool!!!!!

 

peace out ya'll......

Edited April 29, 2008 by rangerdavid

[Maestro 0]

Nightvision goggles are useless for anything other than short-term and cause you to depend on technology but that's another story. I'm just saying a car nominally in case someone is hiding behind a disabled one. I think the .50BMG is a waste of money at $4 per round and really overkill for almost everything. .30-06 reaches as far as I think I can aim and delivers with a 220gr the power to stop a person dead in their tracks at 1500+ yds.

[UnidenStew 1]

Sounds to me like you answered your own question. The ought six is all you need then. For an intermediate battle rifle its hard to beat the AK in X39. Get some good ammo here in Barnaul or Brown Bear Mil Spec for it. http://www.ammuntiontogo.com.

 

It'll put holes in em.

Edited April 30, 2008 by MacMan

[CheepJerokee 0]

.50 wasn't designed for people......it was designed for cars.......APC's, Aircraft, etc.

(All though it would make a interesting hole! )

[Vultite 57]

500 yards, I cant see that far without a scope.

My buddy has a Barrett 50 and he practices at 300.......and he's one of those that wants spent uranium rounds!

Ya, the .308 for shure.

Just MHO, but if it's 500 yds away and standin still...........I'm running the other way.

practices at 300? what kinda 50 does he have? he should be practicing at 1000 yards + with 750 grain match ammo and learning how to use a scope (which the good ones come with a guide). the cheap ball ammo works great at 300 yards, but it won't change unless there is a fair amount of wind present, that is like practicing a X39 at 25 yards

[getitat 609]

Hello, Maestro

Call me stupid or perversely curious, but why would you seek out corrosive ammo? You just like to clean?

 

guido2 in Houston

 

 

I'm what's referred to as a survivalist and am looking into the Saiga as survival weapon because it is a low-cost relatively low-weight Main Battle Rifle (MBR). I'm trying to figure out if I need to get the x39 or .308 for sufficient range to penetrate a car at 500yds. I'm leaning towards x39 because it's cheaper, has 30rd steel mags (I'm distrustful of the long-term durability of polymer or plastic), and is a physically lighter round to carry.

So my question is this: is the x39 capable of punching through a car door at 500yds? If so, does anyone know where I can buy corrosive ammunition in bulk?

[captzeno 5]

I'm all for pondering SHTF or zombie scenarios. But how is this anything appropriate let alone "survival" material? In what scenario would anyone need to shoot through a car door at that distance in order to protect himself?

 

I know this is an open forum but doesn't this bother anyone else?

Yeah, Me. Let's all just take a deep breath.........................................Now let it out ...............................Relax.

[CheepJerokee 0]

500 yards, I cant see that far without a scope.

My buddy has a Barrett 50 and he practices at 300.......and he's one of those that wants spent uranium rounds!

Ya, the .308 for shure.

Just MHO, but if it's 500 yds away and standin still...........I'm running the other way.

practices at 300? what kinda 50 does he have? he should be practicing at 1000 yards + with 750 grain match ammo and learning how to use a scope (which the good ones come with a guide). the cheap ball ammo works great at 300 yards, but it won't change unless there is a fair amount of wind present, that is like practicing a X39 at 25 yards

It's 320 yards from the top to the bottom of the ridge on his ranch...........and from the back porch to the tun in from the road.

You should feel comfortable with a weapon where it would be used.

I'd hate to make a wrong turn onto that road!

(And , of course the neighbors prefer that he shoot into the soft wall at teh bottom of the hill!!!!)

Edited May 1, 2008 by CheepJerokee

[Blackhawk 0]

I'll go against the grain on this one. Let me give me reason why. I've owned and shot the x39 since 1993. I've shot it in the civilan world and military. I know its no 308, which I would choose in this situation but that does not mean the x39 cannot get the job done out to 500yds. While stationed at Ft. Riley KS (11C) we fired the M60's and M2's to a range that had vehicle targets out at 700-1000yds. The 7.62x39, with practice, will hit a vehicle target out to 1000yds. I've did it. Granted, the key words are with practice. It took us a few rounds to figure things out, but after that it was no problem to fire a single bullet, the M60 will fire single fire, and hit those targets.

 

Furtherest I've killed game was about 200yds with the x39.

 

But after saying all that, I'd choose the 308 cause it will do what the x39 will do and a lot more.

[NYC.DenseCity 0]

yeah, your wierd man.

[loki0629 55]

It took us a few rounds to figure things out, but after that it was no problem to fire a single bullet, the M60 will fire single fire, and hit those targets.

You do realize that the M60 was chambered in 7.62x51 and not 7.62x39 right? There is nothing in the standard issue US arsenal that shoots the 7.62x39 round but the M60E3 and the M240G shoot 7.62x51. As a matter of fact, those rounds were called 7.62's because there was no way they'd be confused with the 7.62x39.

 

And to the OP, I wouldn't even entertain shooting at those ranges with an AK in a SHTF scenario. All you'd be doing is announcing where you are and that you are armed. You should know that the .50 cal round from an M2 will shoot into and disable an engine but it won't punch through it and kill someone on the other side. If you've seen the footage on the internet where the minigun punches right through vehicles and kills everything around it, that is a 20mm gun...not 7.62x51 (and not really a minigun).

 

So my .02 cents, neither Saiga is appropriate for that shot in a true SHTF situation. The dropoff for the .308 alone is going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 36 inches at that range...maybe more. For the 7.62x39, I can only imagine it's going to be about 6 feet or so. I'm not even going to get into shooting from a higher or lower elevation and how that affects the point of impact.

[CheepJerokee 0]

Ahhhh, wasn't the AK and the M16 designed around the fact that most light infantry combat will take place within 30 to 100 yards?

Otherwise the M14 would be "America's Rifle" rather than the M16 and all our guys would still have Garands!

[Blackhawk 0]

It took us a few rounds to figure things out, but after that it was no problem to fire a single bullet, the M60 will fire single fire, and hit those targets.

You do realize that the M60 was chambered in 7.62x51 and not 7.62x39 right? There is nothing in the standard issue US arsenal that shoots the 7.62x39 round but the M60E3 and the M240G shoot 7.62x51. As a matter of fact, those rounds were called 7.62's because there was no way they'd be confused with the 7.62x39.

 

And to the OP, I wouldn't even entertain shooting at those ranges with an AK in a SHTF scenario. All you'd be doing is announcing where you are and that you are armed. You should know that the .50 cal round from an M2 will shoot into and disable an engine but it won't punch through it and kill someone on the other side. If you've seen the footage on the internet where the minigun punches right through vehicles and kills everything around it, that is a 20mm gun...not 7.62x51 (and not really a minigun).

 

So my .02 cents, neither Saiga is appropriate for that shot in a true SHTF situation. The dropoff for the .308 alone is going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 36 inches at that range...maybe more. For the 7.62x39, I can only imagine it's going to be about 6 feet or so. I'm not even going to get into shooting from a higher or lower elevation and how that affects the point of impact.

 

Gunny,

 

For several years that was the main squad weapon in the Army (M60E). But again I'm not saying that the x39 will be the best of the two in this situation, I'm saying it can hit a vehicle at around a 1000yds.

 

If an enemy knows where you are then firing when you can can be a good deterent. But if they don't know where you're at, best choice is not to fire.

 

As far as bullet drop, I can't argue those facts with you. I do know that a 308 will kill an elk at 350yds, a deer at 450yds, and a man at 700yds. When comparing the 308 to the 300RUM (30 caliber mag short case similar to the 308) 308 takes about 50grs of powder where as the 300RUM takes about 100grs. The 300RUM does not give twice the performance though. IIRC its about a 25% gain, the rest being driven into your shoulder when the 300RUM is fired. We can also compare the 308 to the 30-06 in realtion to long distance shooting. Carlos Hathcock killed several enemy soldiers, 700-1000yds, in Vietnam using the 30-06. He also won several long distance shooting events with the same 30 cal.

 

But after saying all that, I'd save my money and put it on an M14.

 

John