How to blow up an M4

[vspdave 0]

If you have not seen this test yet.....Check it out

 

 

\

 

 

Not sure if test was proper - No doubting 416's are top shelf though

 

Man real bad Euro electronic music to boot

Edited June 2, 2008 by vspdave

[Superhawk138 202]

If you have not seen this test yet.....Check it out

 

 

\

 

 

Not sure if test was proper - No doubting 416's are top shelf though

 

Good vid, noticed he had a bomb suit helmet on for the traditional Ar15s water test. Good Thing. They should have also tested an AK as well

Edited June 2, 2008 by Superhawk138

[Agias 0]

That's impressive.

[kresk 10,063]

Man real bad Euro electronic music to boot.

Electronic version of music used in "Das Boot."

[dancapostagno 0]

Man real bad Euro electronic music to boot.

Electronic version of music used in "Das Boot."

 

i know i'm prolly in the minority, but i liked the music, very German Eurotrash Infomercial music.

[Vultite 57]

i'm not impressed, they are testing a different design vs. the old POS colt design, if they wanted to have a true VS. test, they should have tested against a LWRC or POF....that DI colt is obviously no match for a gas piston HK, they already knew that going into the test which is why the guy had a helmet on for the COLT

Edited June 3, 2008 by Vultite

[dancapostagno 0]

pretty much. but this is from the group that calls people "operators" so I'm not surprised.

[vspdave 0]

Do you expect Party Boy from "Jackass" to bust down your door with that music?

[dancapostagno 0]

who's to say I'M not Party Boy, after all I did cop to liking eurotrashy jams.

seriously though, that is straight-up German infomercial music. to get on my iPod, i would demand a quicker beat.

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

First off, the test is stupid. Who goes swimming with their weapon and has the chamber open? Clue: Anyone specifically looking to exploit the weakness of a single design. Contrary to what HK might want you to think, the military goes swimming with their bolts closed and their barrels sealed.

 

But it really doesn't matter anyways..

 

....that DI colt is obviously no match for a gas piston HK, they already knew that going into the test which is why the guy had a helmet on for the COLT

You know, that's one of the reasons why I discredit this video as being a staged test every time it comes up. The guy is wearing a helmet because he knows the M4 is going to fail, but isn't wearing one with the 416 because he knows it isn't going to fail. Why is that? Well, because this is a survivable test for both weapon systems. That M4 was prepped to fail. Look how slow the reciever casting departs the weapon. Hmmmm.. Anyone ever seen a catostrophic failure of an M4 pattern rifle? I'm sure a few have. Anyone that's seen one of those ever see on that didn't involve the shooter suffering injury to his hands? Yeah, I haven't seen that either.. except for this test, or simple case head failures. I can't help but notice the shooter wasn't wearing hand protection.. On a weapon they knew was going to fail. How many of you guys want to hold in your hands and shoot a weapon that you know is about to suffer a catostrophic failure? Hmmm. Okay, maybe I'm just being paranoid. So, let's replay the video and stop it at 1:54. Look at the damage to the firearm. The breech is still intact. The bolt is still in place. The barrel is sound and the gas tube is undamaged. Wait, what? This was supposed to be a catostrophic firing failure wasn't it? Then why is the damage to the firearm contained to the side of the upper reciever and not the acutal breech, barrel or gas system? But the question don't stop there. Why did the right side of the receiver depart the weapon? the right side has the ejection port. It's a natural vent for gas going the wrong way. I've always seen the left side of the reciever depart failed weapons.. Hmm..

 

I'm sorry, but that's a prepped weapon.

 

It's HK, I expect this kind of crap from them.

[nalioth 405]

It's HK, I expect this kind of crap from them.

Are you sure about that? Looks like a Fanboi Production. I'm a native Texan and speak German, so don't base anything on the spoken language, either.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

I like the music too. OK, I wonder if this test is real, how would Bushmaster do?

[Vultite 57]

I like the music too. OK, I wonder if this test is real, how would Bushmaster do?

bushy would fail, unless its the gas piston verison or the masada version, POF produces the bushy's or at least they used to, POF is top notch along with LWRC, basically same as the 416

[vspdave 0]

Like Superchicken said - I bet you could have buried a 30 year old AK in their test pond for a year - pop a fresh mag in there and it would go just like a 416.

 

Though....... anyone ever do any submerged testing with an AK? Now I'm curious

Edited June 4, 2008 by vspdave

[Twinsen 86]

Like Superchicken said - I bet you could have buried a 30 year old AK in their test pond for a year - pop a fresh mag in there and it would go just like a 416.

 

Though....... anyone ever do any submerged testing with an AK? Now I'm curious

 

Haven't you seen Lethal Weapon 4?! :haha: :haha:

[AK-fanaddict 0]

Now what I want to know is how do the seals who are, and have been coming out of water with a M16/M4/Ar15 way before the 416 came out do for that not to happen? and I doudt there weapons blew up in there face going into combat.

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

Two different modes of employment. As you know H2O= non-compressability--> very high pressures if not vented. There is no gas tube in the piston driven variant, just like an AK. And if you review your M-16 manual I distinctly remember it stating, "bolt open to drain" after submersion. It is almost instantaneous. The seals know this as do all our operators so this is seldom a problem for them. Otherwise, I do not care what you have if you have standing water in that barrel/chamber the potential for failure exists. Non-compressability. Notice how Deiter has the muzzle out of the water?

[mstranglr 9]

AK-Fanaddict, As a matter of fact they have blown up when fireing after emerging from water! Many times!!!

 

That poster of the painted-face commando emerging from the swamp water, M16 with all the bells and whistles at the ready, is just a recruitment poster. You are taught NEVER to fire your M16/M4 with water in the barrel and presented with many examples of what happens when you do. Even civi instructors key in on this point.

 

Water at the rear of the barrel in an M4 results in KaBooms. Many other rifles, including AKs do not suffer this situation.

 

Here is a link to the US Navy safety center, warning not to shot M16/M4 rifles with water in the barrel. It even recites the SOP for clearing the barrel (not something you want to monkey with in the heat of the moment). http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/gro...er02/twom4s.htm

 

As for emerging from water to fire; Seal teams sometimes use the MP5 for these situations, as the weapon seems to tolerate it well.

 

And the AK, that lowly weapon of peasants and child warriors, keeps going.

[Paulry 50]

Ok, I agree with everyone. Colt is pos.

 

But Click, I experianced a case head failure 20 years ago with a stock Colt AR15. Yes, I had extream hand damage! Bolt release thru thumb, brass through other parts (the mag took a total dump) I am lucky when it happend I had it at hip level or I would be blind (man I lost hearing on that)

 

The video is NOT a case head failure, it is the gas pressure trapped in the action (notice they leave the bolt open of the Colt and it is closed in the HK) this left the action full of water that could not exit and removed the top of the frame.

 

Yes, everyone is right to discount the AR15 design, that's why Stoner quickly produced the AR18 rigth after (can you say gas rod) in fact Fairchild and Armalite really wanted the US to go with the AR18 as it was less to produce and more reliable. Thanks to the Kennedy people to go with the space age design. What did they know!@

 

Saiga's, Stack em deep!

 

I've got a pile! :-)

 

Frosty

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

But Click, I experianced a case head failure 20 years ago with a stock Colt AR15. Yes, I had extream hand damage! Bolt release thru thumb, brass through other parts (the mag took a total dump) I am lucky when it happend I had it at hip level or I would be blind (man I lost hearing on that)

Holy egads. Were you holding the rifle by the magwell perchance? Normally case head failures dump the mag and blow off the itty bits, but don't really do much more than scare the shooter.. if they are holding it by the fore arm.

 

The video is NOT a case head failure, it is the gas pressure trapped in the action (notice they leave the bolt open of the Colt and it is closed in the HK) this left the action full of water that could not exit and removed the top of the frame.

Oh, I'm not saying I thought it was a case head failure in the video. I'm saying that the rifle was prepped to fail in a specific and planned manner.

 

Consider the failures possible and the physics involved.

 

Water in the gas tube. Not likely. Water in the gas tube would work as a piston. gases coming from the barrel would push the water backwards against the bolt face, causing the bolt to cycle. Or, the gas tube wouldn't be able to contain the pressure and rupture. This isn't the failure was saw.

 

Obstruction (water) in the barrel. This is know to cause failures in many firearms. But, consider how this failure happens. Exanding gas is lazy. It will expand in which ever direction is easiest for it. Normally down the barrel. When something impeedes the normal progress downt he barrel (lodged bullet, dirt, water etc) the gas finds other ways to go. The two most common are; out the sides of the barrel and back the way it came.. or both at the same time. Ruptured barrels are the result of the first, and where you see most of your hand damage on ARs. The second is similar to, but worse than a normal case head failure. Gas flows back through the chamber, through the extractor, splits the bolt carrier and enters the upper reciever. It blows out the mag and itty bits on the way and usually causes the left wall of the reciever to fail. The right wall doesn't fail because it's got a big honking vent in it.

 

Okay, that sounds about right for our failure (which BTW will also happen to a HK 416 if you have an obstructed barrel) except for one problem that I pointed out in my earlier post. The right side of the reciever failed, not the left side. Like I said previously, that's not possible from this type of failure. The only way to get that failure, is to set up that failure.

[AK-fanaddict 0]

So if your M16/M4 goes underwater, and you take it out point the muzzle down (draining the water) and open the bolt, can you then fire it without having it blow up?

[reoiv 1]

I'm just glad I sprung for the Gas Piston AR15

 

That said the barrel diameter of the AR15 and most 22s for that matter is so small you get an issue with capillary action. Meaning that water can't flow out of the barrel fast enough to keep it from making too much pressure when fired.

 

AKs and other bigger bore weapons don't really have this issue as the water wicks away fast enough. Small diameter tubes take longer.

 

Think big straw vs coffee straw and then hold them sideways full of water. The bigger one will empty out quicker.

[mstranglr 9]

AK-fanaddict, link says to hold the bolt open and drain for a full 10 seconds in condition one, and a full 5 seconds in condition 3. I doubt seal teams are engauging the enemy in condition 3. I think rioiv is right, its the innability to drain fast enough. Some trainers teach to put a small piece of tape over the muzzle when working in the rain. its pretty obvious that they expected the M4 to fail.