Is this legal?

[molodoi 0]

On a 7.62 is it legal to add a Dinzag feed ramp, file the mag release and do no other mod, then use standard 10rd AK mags?

Edited August 19, 2008 by molodoi

[22_Shooter 1,560]

*see posts below

Edited August 19, 2008 by 22_Shooter

[moxie1c 3]

On a 7.62 is it legal to add a Dinzag feed ramp, file the mag release and do no other mod, then use standard 10rd AK mags?

 

Completely legal. Bullet guides aren't a "counted" part in 922r. As far as magazines are concerned, as long as it's 10 rounds or less, 922r doesn't even apply.

 

True, but what you have done is violated the letter of the law in regards to 922. You now have the ability to use high-capacity magazines. Should you be found in constructive possession of such mags then this would become a flagrant violation of the law.

 

A lot of guys do it what you are doing though but they also keep their mags US made and will install another US part like a gas piston to bring their parts count down to 10.

 

Technically you are legal. Unfortunately, you are not 100% on this but some may disagree with me.

[molodoi 0]

True, but what you have done is violated the letter of the law in regards to 922. You now have the ability to use high-capacity magazines. Should you be found in constructive possession of such mags then this would become a flagrant violation of the law.

 

So I take that it is legal as long as no 11 or more round mag is in the gun. I can take it to the range with its 10rd mags, a regular AK and 30rd mags and it would be legal as long as the 30rd mags are not inserted in the rifle.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

On a 7.62 is it legal to add a Dinzag feed ramp, file the mag release and do no other mod, then use standard 10rd AK mags?

 

Completely legal. Bullet guides aren't a "counted" part in 922r. As far as magazines are concerned, as long as it's 10 rounds or less, 922r doesn't even apply.

 

True, but what you have done is violated the letter of the law in regards to 922. You now have the ability to use high-capacity magazines. Should you be found in constructive possession of such mags then this would become a flagrant violation of the law.

 

A lot of guys do it what you are doing though but they also keep their mags US made and will install another US part like a gas piston to bring their parts count down to 10.

 

Technically you are legal. Unfortunately, you are not 100% on this but some may disagree with me.

 

I wasn't aware of the "ability to accept" part.

Edited August 19, 2008 by 22_Shooter

[22_Shooter 1,560]

True, but what you have done is violated the letter of the law in regards to 922. You now have the ability to use high-capacity magazines. Should you be found in constructive possession of such mags then this would become a flagrant violation of the law.

 

So I take that it is legal as long as no 11 or more round mag is in the gun. I can take it to the range with its 10rd mags, a regular AK and 30rd mags and it would be legal as long as the 30rd mags are not inserted in the rifle.

 

That's how I understand it. But Moxie is saying that just the ability to accept mags greater than 10 rounds, requires 922r compliance. Hopefully this gets figured out, because it's a good question.

[moxie1c 3]

True, but what you have done is violated the letter of the law in regards to 922. You now have the ability to use high-capacity magazines. Should you be found in constructive possession of such mags then this would become a flagrant violation of the law.

 

So I take that it is legal as long as no 11 or more round mag is in the gun. I can take it to the range with its 10rd mags, a regular AK and 30rd mags and it would be legal as long as the 30rd mags are not inserted in the rifle.

 

That's how I understand it. But Moxie is saying that just the ability to accept mags greater than 10 rounds, requires 922r compliance. Hopefully this gets figured out, because it's a good question.

 

And taking it to the range with another rifle that has a high-cap mag which will function in your Saiga is "constructive possession." Under law a person with constructive possession stands in the same legal position as a person with actual possession. There have been successful prosecutions for "constructive possession" where one person was alleged to have all the parts necessary to assemble a machine gun. So, now you need to ask yourself...do you have all the parts to assemble a non-922r-compliant weapon.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

True, but what you have done is violated the letter of the law in regards to 922. You now have the ability to use high-capacity magazines. Should you be found in constructive possession of such mags then this would become a flagrant violation of the law.

 

So I take that it is legal as long as no 11 or more round mag is in the gun. I can take it to the range with its 10rd mags, a regular AK and 30rd mags and it would be legal as long as the 30rd mags are not inserted in the rifle.

 

That's how I understand it. But Moxie is saying that just the ability to accept mags greater than 10 rounds, requires 922r compliance. Hopefully this gets figured out, because it's a good question.

 

And taking it to the range with another rifle that has a high-cap mag which will function in your Saiga is "constructive possession." Under law a person with constructive possession stands in the same legal position as a person with actual possession. There have been successful prosecutions for "constructive possession" where one person was alleged to have all the parts necessary to assemble a machine gun. So, now you need to ask yourself...do you have all the parts to assemble a non-922r-compliant weapon.

 

Good point Moxie, I stand corrected. I'll edit my first post.

[RDSWriter 5]

The easiest way to understand 922r is to evaluate whether or not the BATFE will allow a rifle (as configured) to be imported. Is is 'sporting'?

 

Moxie is 100% correct on his verbiage with 'ability to accept'. If all it took was to supply 10rd magazines with the rifle, then the 1998 change to prohibit semiautos that can accept more than 10 rounds would never have happened. Prior to that change to the 'sporting' definition, you could buy imported semiautos that could accept hi-caps, but were not imported with high caps due to the AWB. If it was legal, then all the imports would just put a 10rd magazine with the gun... just like they did from 1994 to 1998.

 

In essence, what molodoi is wanting to build is what many of us bought between 1994 and 1998. But that configuration is no longer 'sporting' as defined by the BATFE, and thus is no longer eligible to be imported in that configuration. Hence, it would be a violation of 922r to configure said weapon with more than 10 imported parts from 'the list' if it has the ability to accept a LCMM (large capacity military magazine).

 

FYI - from the ATF's perspective - all magazines that take more than 10rds are LCMMs whether they are used by a military or not.

Edited August 19, 2008 by RDSWriter

[molodoi 0]

The easiest way to understand 922r is to evaluate whether or not the BATFE will allow a rifle (as configured) to be imported. Is is 'sporting'?

 

...

 

FYI - from the ATF's perspective - all magazines that take more than 10rds are LCMMs whether they are used by a military or not.

I see. How does that differ from a standard Saiga that can accept US-made 30rd magazines made for the Saiga?

[moxie1c 3]

The easiest way to understand 922r is to evaluate whether or not the BATFE will allow a rifle (as configured) to be imported. Is is 'sporting'?

 

...

 

FYI - from the ATF's perspective - all magazines that take more than 10rds are LCMMs whether they are used by a military or not.

I see. How does that differ from a standard Saiga that can accept US-made 30rd magazines made for the Saiga?

I believe that the US made, Saiga specific magazines you are referring to are the ones which are built to the same sizing specs as the factory saigas except they are 30 rounds. IE...they have a narrower mag latch and a higher front lip to substitute for the lack of a feed-ramp. Some of those mags I have seen are actually foreign surplus mags which are modified by a company in the US and they do not count as three US made parts.

 

A US made 30 round, saiga specific magazines are not considered sporting when either attached to the rifle or in your constructive possession. Your rifle comes imported with 14 parts regulated under 922r. If however; your rifle has only 13 imported parts (usually by swapping out the gas piston or by installing US made handguards) then you can use US made high capacity 30 round magazines which include 3 parts to bring you down to 10 imported parts...but then you still run into the constructive possession problem since you have another AK and foreign mags in the house.

 

SO, in my opinion a 13 part rifle can use US made mags without running into the constructive possession problem just as long as the magazine itself is modified or produced to fit and function in a saiga which does not have a modified magazine catch. The magazine catch must remain stock so that it rejects all other foreign made high-capacity magazines. This is just my interpretation, not the ATFs so take it as you will.

 

Long story short, 922r stinks and is a nightmare for converting your firearm--but if thought out then the conversion and subsequent parts purchases will be easy. I live near Connecticut and have heard stories of a few guys getting pinched by the State Police for 922r violations but since I cannot positively confirm these reports I have not been quick to share them here or to further speculate on them. But, to me it does raise my eyebrow to the fact that maybe, just maybe some police forces are potentially aware of 922r and targeting violators of such. I wouldn't take any chances.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

But, to me it does raise my eyebrow to the fact that maybe, just maybe some police forces are potentially aware of 922r and targeting violators of such. I wouldn't take any chances.

 

That's the same way I think about it; Better safe than sorry.

 

I'd hate to be the "example" they make, if they ever decide to do so.

[dvqsjr 0]

There are two often-overlooked issues with respect to purported violations of Sec. 922r.

 

First, as most Americans know, police need probable cause to arrest someone for violation of any law, 922r or otherwise. So, the question arises How does a law enforcement officer establish probable cause for a 922r violation? How can a cop know, for example, that an SKS has more than 10 foreign made parts? The truth is that he has no way of knowing without tearing the gun apart piece by piece and determining that 11 or more parts are of foreign origin. And he can't do that without having probable cause to believe the weapon is in violation of 922r to begin with. (Unless, of course, the SKS owner is stupid enough to give the cop permission to inspect the weapon...)

 

"Excuse me, sir. I believe your firearm is in violation of Sec. 922r."

 

"Really? And how do you know that?"

 

"Um... I believe you have more than 10 foreign parts in your SKS."

 

"Really? And how do you know that?"

 

"May I inspect your weapon?"

 

"No, you may not. Pound sand."

 

Second, an issue that too few people understand is that the federal government has absolutely NO authority whatsoever to prosecute anyone for anything unless the activity in question has a sufficient nexus with interstate commerce. That is why, in many states, a person can sell a firearm to another resident of that state without any government involvement whatsoever. It's just like selling a bicycle or a coat. It's only when you purchase from an FFL or from a person in another state that Big Brother can get involved.

 

There is a 1995 U.S. Supreme Court case, U.S. v. Lopez, where a high school senior in San Antonio, Texas brought a concealed weapon to school and was arrested and convicted at trial under the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990. 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(1)(A). The Supreme Court threw out the conviction, stating:

 

The Act exceeds Congress' Commerce Clause authority. First, although this Court has upheld a wide variety of congressional Acts regulating intrastate economic activity that substantially affected interstate commerce,

the possession of a gun in a local school zone is in no sense an economic activity that might, through repetition elsewhere, have such a substantial effect on interstate commerce. Section 922(q) is a criminal statute that by its terms has nothing to do with "commerce" or any sort of economic enterprise, however broadly those terms are defined.

Nor is it an essential part of a larger regulation of economic activity, in which the regulatory scheme could be undercut unless the intrastate activity were regulated. It cannot, therefore, be sustained under the Court's cases upholding regulations of activities that arise out of or are connected with a commercial transaction, which viewed in the aggregate, substantially affects interstate commerce. Second, 922(q) contains no jurisdictional element which would ensure, through case-by-case inquiry, that the firearms possession in question has the requisite Page II nexus with interstate commerce. Respondent was a local student at a local school; there is no indication that he had recently moved in interstate commerce, and there is no requirement that his possession of the firearm have any concrete tie to interstate commerce.

To uphold the Government's contention that 922(q) is justified because firearms possession in a local school zone does indeed substantially affect interstate commerce would require this Court to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional Commerce Clause authority to a general police power of the sort held only by the States

.

 

So, unless a U.S. Attorney can establish that the possession of an SKS or other weapon in purported violation of 922r has some sort of legitimate connection with interstate commerce, his prosecution is going absolutely nowhere. That, even more than the probable cause hurdle mentioned above, is the real reason why consumers are not prosecuted under this law.

[gtnichols 51]

Good points,

I is always desirable to abide by the laws of the country you live in and are a member of, no matter how confusing they are,..

 

It's as simple as :

Don't do anything wrong, and you won't go to jail,..

[Reverendfranz 160]

Thats one hell of a first post.

 

+10 Xpat.

[moxie1c 3]

Good points,

I is always desirable to abide by the laws of the country you live in and are a member of, no matter how confusing they are,..

 

It's as simple as :

Don't do anything wrong, and you won't go to jail,..

 

 

 

How Not to Get Your Ass Kicked by The Police

 

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Good points,

I is always desirable to abide by the laws of the country you live in and are a member of, no matter how confusing they are,..

 

It's as simple as :

Don't do anything wrong, and you won't go to jail,..

 

 

 

How Not to Get Your Ass Kicked by The Police

 

 

:lol:

[Etek 32]

How many one eyed Red Haired Angels can dance on the head of a pin if they are REAL Angels and not Angels made from foreign parts? OK, only ONE Angel has a part that lets her USE a wing that is foreign made?

What if she dyes her hair? Does the BATFE (Bureau of Angels Toothless Fairies and Enchantment) have to do a DNA test on her hair? Is wearing a wig OK? What if the wig IS Red but imported? What if she's REAL but uses red hair attachments? If OK can they be Red or must they be Blonde?

 

Fucking Silliness.

[moxie1c 3]

How many one eyed Red Haired Angels can dance on the head of a pin if they are REAL Angels and not Angels made from foreign parts? OK, only ONE Angel has a part that lets her USE a wing that is foreign made?

What if she dyes her hair? Does the BATFE (Bureau of Angels Toothless Fairies and Enchantment) have to do a DNA test on her hair? Is wearing a wig OK? What if the wig IS Red but imported? What if she's REAL but uses red hair attachments? If OK can they be Red or must they be Blonde?

 

Fucking Silliness.

Blaaah! HAHAHAHA!