Be afraid; be very afraid

[mikein 0]

This is the Democrat's Platform Plank for this election on guns..............

 

We resolve to:

 

- Strengthen the national Brady background check system to incorporate all necessary records including criminal, domestic violence, and mental health records from all 50 states and all territories.

 

- Institute a universal background check system to ensure that all gun sales in all 50 states and territories are subject to a Brady background check.

 

- Fully fund the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms so that it can conduct regular and frequent inspections of Federal Firearms Licensed Dealers to prevent unlawful sales.

 

- Require that all persons who sell guns of any kind through employment at a gun manufacturer or through a Federal Firearm Licensed Dealer pass a Brady background check.

 

- Strengthen programs designed to trace crime gun purchases to shut down unscrupulous dealers.

 

- Remove the Tiahrt restrictions on the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade.

 

- Institute a national ballistics program to initiate microstamping technology on all weapons manufactured or sold in the United States, so that crime guns and casings can be traced quickly to the original sale.

 

- Support manufacturers who voluntarily develop and sell childproof handguns.

 

- Strengthen and make permanent the federal Assault Weapons Ban and the ban on large capacity ammunition magazines and clips.

[RangerM9 1]

I'd actually support some of those....with some modifications

 

 

Strengthen the national Brady background check system to incorporate all necessary records including criminal, domestic violence, and mental health records from all 50 states and all territories.

 

- Institute a universal INSTANT background check system to ensure that all gun sales in all 50 states and territories are subject to an INSTANT Brady background check.

 

- Fully fund the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms so that it can conduct regular and frequent inspections of Federal Firearms Licensed Dealers to prevent INTENTIONAL unlawful sales.

 

- Require that all persons who sell guns of any kind through employment at a gun manufacturer or through a Federal Firearm Licensed Dealer pass a Brady background check - GOOD IDEA!.

 

- Strengthen programs designed to trace crime gun purchases to shut down unscrupulous dealers (GOOD CONCEPT - EXECUATION WILL SUCK THOUGH!).

 

 

I have no problem with programs designed to keep guns away from those who should not have them.....and i agree that dealers that knowingly skirt the law should be shut down and jailed.

 

I give up nothing by supporting these aspects of it.

 

Micro stamping is an intersting idea, but you would have to stamp the bullet, not the casing, or the casing from a range could just be scattered around a crime scene = bad, and in fact terrible for police

 

AWB can go to hell.

 

I have no love for either candidate, but bad things happen when the same party controls both legislative and executive branches.....either party.....

 

Here's hoping McCain can avoid shooting himself in the foot for the next 70 days....no joke intended there.

[Modiano 5]

a few months ago i asked the question, "whats the proper way to sell a gun so it's out of my name in case it's eventually stolen or used in a crime". so i looked it up. according to the ATF, private in-state gun sales do not require any receipt or paperwork. the only restriction is that the seller has no knowledge that the buyer is a felon. doesn't even say you have to ask. some states or cities might have a registry, but most don't.

 

why do i keep hearing about gun show sale loopholes, when every private gun sale is a "loophole". thank you politicians and gun controllers with your head up you ass.

 

seems like if we treated used gun sales almost like used car sales, that would solve almost everything and get the brady bunch and million moms away from my tartget/defense guns.

 

just go down to a dealer and do a transfer (just an instant background check, right?). no federal gun registry, just the transfer with an approval number.

 

if someone is committing a fairly serious crime (not traffic violations) and they have a gun, run a quick check to see if it was properly transfered. if it wasn't, illegal gun owner.

 

 

gun show sale numbers are nothing compared to everyday private gun sales.

assault weapon bans do not drop crime.

if politicians really want to keep guns out of the wrong hands, they could with some changes to the current system.

[Gaddis 1,689]

Actually, you should have the buyer Xerox one of his/her proof of identity documents and sign a waiver absolving you from any harm caused by him/her taking possession of you firearm (proof of sale/transfer).

 

And if the politicians really wanted to do something about the rampant (gun) crime problem, give the freakin' perpetrators more jail time than someone who cheats on their taxes.

[RDSWriter 5]

My GOD, I'm sick and tired of hearing our own people say they support the elimination of private sales without a background check. THERE IS NO PRIVATE SALE LOOPHOLE, THERE IS NO GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE. The reasons people refer to them as such is that crappy gun laws have been passed that DON'T work and Big Government liberals in both major parties are looking for more excuses to limit freedoms by trying to convince us that MORE laws will stop criminal behavior. Everytime a new law gets passed, there is a new 'loophole' because the law was not more encompassing. Case in point - the 'loophole' that allowed modified 'assualt weapons' to still be sold from 1994 to 2004. I MEAN... DAMN... the liberals banned featues so manufacturers removed them to comply with the law. Then these manufacturers and their new products were demonized for taking advantage of the 'loophole' in the AWB. There was no loophole, the manufacturers did EXACTLY what the law required them to do to comply.

 

The ONLY way to ensure no private sales without a background check is to register all firearms to their owners and have a central database for reference. How else will the government EVER know if you disposed of a gun improperly... especially if they don't know what guns are being transferrred? How can they ever prosecute you for not complying? For over 150 years there was NO paperwork at all via the federal government for gun purchases and sales... then came the NFA. then for another 30+ years no restriction on longarm sales... then came the GCA 1969. Now after 225+ years we're going to limit an INDIVIDUAL's rights to sell a legal product to another law-abiding citizen because it will reduce crime.

 

I'll bet anyone $500 that gun crime WILL NOT go down if/when this type of background requirement goes into effect - UNLESS THERE IS COMPLETE REGISTRATION OF ALL FIREARMS.

 

The easiest way for the our government - THAT WE PAY FOR - to allow individuals to do a background check is to simply open up NCIC and add a 1800 that ANYONE in the United States can call. It's that easy - no dealers, no requirements, no new laws, no penalties for not doing it. Just have an AUTOMATED 1800 number that you can call and get a INSTANT check on anyone in the US. You don't need a SSN if you have a name and address. I have NEVER put a SSN on a 4473 and have NEVER been turned down.

 

HELL, I already CYA with my sales because I will only sell a firearm to an individual with a FL CCW permit or via an online classified ad to individuals out-of-state via their FFL. It's volunatary and my choice... anyone else can do likewise... but I don't encourage or support LAWS THAT MANDATE I go through a dealer for purchases or sales. Hell I rarely sell anything... but when I CHOOSE to do so, I CHOOSE my terms for the sale. If the buyer doesn't like it - F them.

 

 

To the point that we want to treat firearms like used cars... let's elaborate on cars.

 

1. You can build any car, in any configuration to use any fuel you want. It can go as fast as your wallet will allow and be as nimble or rocket-like as you prefer. You can buy any frame, motor, and other parts and build your car with just tools. The only caveat is that your car may, or may not, be allowed to be driven on the public roadway. So in comparison, I'd like to buy any chassis (read machinegun receivers) - and all parts to assemble them with no paperwork, taxes, background checks, or CLEO signatures. I'd like to buy any type of fuel (read AP, API, tracer bullets) for my machineguns. I'd like to be able to take it anywhere that cars are allowed. My only restriction is that I may not be able to drive (read discharge) my machineguns on public roadways. As long as I don't discharge my machineguns on public land, I can take them anywhere in the US and keep them with me and use them privately. That sounds pretty good to me.

 

NASCAR, NHRA and thousands of other folks build anything they want without ANY government restrictions/regulations. The only meaninggul restrictions are (1) the thermodynamic and structural lawas of the universe regarding good, safe design and potentially (2) the PRIVATE governing competitive bodies that regulate the motorized sports - if you CHOOSE to engage in these competitions. Even with that, folks can build anything they want as long as it's raced on a private track that allows it.

 

DAMN... I WISH firearm laws were as rigid as laws regarding cars - because there are none for private built or 'salvaged' scrap.

Edited August 25, 2008 by RDSWriter

[waltham_41 52]

And if the politicians really wanted to do something about the rampant (gun) crime problem, give the freakin' perpetrators more jail time than someone who cheats on their taxes.

 

 

I totally agree. Minimum of 20 years without the possibility of parole for any crime committed with a firearm. Second offense life without the possibility of parole. That would clean the streets up fairly fast I would think.

[rangerdavid 6]

i agree with about all of that platform but the assault weapons ban thing.

 

anyone committing a crime with a gun only makes it harder for the rest of us lawful gun owners.

 

but remember, the latest ban was introduced by the repubican congressman from ohio or illinois, i forget which. the thread is on here somewhere. so in reality, our gun rights are being threatened from both sides of the isle.

Edited August 26, 2008 by rangerdavid

[Gaddis 1,689]

I totally agree. Minimum of 20 years without the possibility of parole for any crime committed with a firearm. Second offense life without the possibility of parole. That would clean the streets up fairly fast I would think.

 

Heh, but who would vote for the Democrats then? (not counting all of the Kool-Aid drinking whites).

 

Anybody see those goofy white bitches jumping around like Hari Krishna's crying and shit at the DNC when Obama talked?

[righttoown 0]

My GOD, I'm sick and tired of hearing our own people say they support the elimination of private sales without a background check. THERE IS NO PRIVATE SALE LOOPHOLE, THERE IS NO GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE. The reasons people refer to them as such is that crappy gun laws have been passed that DON'T work and Big Government liberals in both major parties are looking for more excuses to limit freedoms by trying to convince us that MORE laws will stop criminal behavior. Everytime a new law gets passed, there is a new 'loophole' because the law was not more encompassing. Case in point - the 'loophole' that allowed modified 'assualt weapons' to still be sold from 1994 to 2004. I MEAN... DAMN... the liberals banned featues so manufacturers removed them to comply with the law. Then these manufacturers and their new products were demonized for taking advantage of the 'loophole' in the AWB. There was no loophole, the manufacturers did EXACTLY what the law required them to do to comply.

 

The ONLY way to ensure no private sales without a background check is to register all firearms to their owners and have a central database for reference. How else will the government EVER know if you disposed of a gun improperly... especially if they don't know what guns are being transferrred? How can they ever prosecute you for not complying? For over 150 years there was NO paperwork at all via the federal government for gun purchases and sales... then came the NFA. then for another 30+ years no restriction on longarm sales... then came the GCA 1969. Now after 225+ years we're going to limit an INDIVIDUAL's rights to sell a legal product to another law-abiding citizen because it will reduce crime.

 

I'll bet anyone $500 that gun crime WILL NOT go down if/when this type of background requirement goes into effect - UNLESS THERE IS COMPLETE REGISTRATION OF ALL FIREARMS.

 

The easiest way for the our government - THAT WE PAY FOR - to allow individuals to do a background check is to simply open up NCIC and add a 1800 that ANYONE in the United States can call. It's that easy - no dealers, no requirements, no new laws, no penalties for not doing it. Just have an AUTOMATED 1800 number that you can call and get a INSTANT check on anyone in the US. You don't need a SSN if you have a name and address. I have NEVER put a SSN on a 4473 and have NEVER been turned down.

 

HELL, I already CYA with my sales because I will only sell a firearm to an individual with a FL CCW permit or via an online classified ad to individuals out-of-state via their FFL. It's volunatary and my choice... anyone else can do likewise... but I don't encourage or support LAWS THAT MANDATE I go through a dealer for purchases or sales. Hell I rarely sell anything... but when I CHOOSE to do so, I CHOOSE my terms for the sale. If the buyer doesn't like it - F them.

 

 

To the point that we want to treat firearms like used cars... let's elaborate on cars.

 

1. You can build any car, in any configuration to use any fuel you want. It can go as fast as your wallet will allow and be as nimble or rocket-like as you prefer. You can buy any frame, motor, and other parts and build your car with just tools. The only caveat is that your car may, or may not, be allowed to be driven on the public roadway. So in comparison, I'd like to buy any chassis (read machinegun receivers) - and all parts to assemble them with no paperwork, taxes, background checks, or CLEO signatures. I'd like to buy any type of fuel (read AP, API, tracer bullets) for my machineguns. I'd like to be able to take it anywhere that cars are allowed. My only restriction is that I may not be able to drive (read discharge) my machineguns on public roadways. As long as I don't discharge my machineguns on public land, I can take them anywhere in the US and keep them with me and use them privately. That sounds pretty good to me.

 

NASCAR, NHRA and thousands of other folks build anything they want without ANY government restrictions/regulations. The only meaninggul restrictions are (1) the thermodynamic and structural lawas of the universe regarding good, safe design and potentially (2) the PRIVATE governing competitive bodies that regulate the motorized sports - if you CHOOSE to engage in these competitions. Even with that, folks can build anything they want as long as it's raced on a private track that allows it.

 

DAMN... I WISH firearm laws were as rigid as laws regarding cars - because there are none for private built or 'salvaged' scrap.

I agree 100% you hit the nail on the head!

[Modiano 5]

My GOD, I'm sick and tired of hearing our own people say they support the elimination of private sales without a background check.........................The ONLY way to ensure no private sales without a background check is to register all firearms to their owners and have a central database for reference. How else will the government EVER know if you disposed of a gun improperly... especially if they don't know what guns are being transferrred? How can they ever prosecute you for not complying? For over 150 years there was NO paperwork at all via the federal government for gun purchases and sales... then came the NFA. then for another 30+ years no restriction on longarm sales... then came the GCA 1969. Now after 225+ years we're going to limit an INDIVIDUAL's rights to sell a legal product to another law-abiding citizen because it will reduce crime.

 

 

easy there, tiger. did you read that i do not support any federal gun registry? when i said 'almost like car title transfers', i meant, you know, the buyer and seller both walk into a dealer with the gun...the dealer makes sure the buyer is able to buy it and its a done deal for a reasonable dealer transfer fee. still no federal registry, just like when the gun was bought new, or used from a dealer. and nobody is forced to put their SS# either...just like the system is now. then anti-gunners wouldn't be able to bitch and moan about felons, declared psychopaths, and kids buying guns. sorry if i didn't word it just like that the 1st time.

 

as for the millions of guns already in circulation, i don't pretend to have the perfect answer, but it's still not a federal gun registry. maybe, hypothetically if something like transfers were required, for the 1st 90days in effect, owners can go to a dealer and "transfer" 10 of their own guns at a time for the reasonable price of one new transfer. an entire gun collection could be done with the same approval number, but you've got to pay the dealers for the time and hastle to handle all those guns. 100-gun collection x $15 to 25 = $150 to $250 for an hour or 2 of a dealers time reading serial numbers and making one phone call for one approval number.

 

i don't have a full closet, but i've bought more than a handful of guns. all bought NIB. all from reputable licensed dealers. i went through that ddddddreadful instant background check plenty of times before i got my CCW. why should i be expected to follow the rules when i buy it from a dealer, but then i can just turn around and sell it to some person i met through a friend...or on gun forum...as long as they don't mention they're a felon

 

i'm not saying i'm petitioning congressmen to put the Modiano Bill into law. i'm saying that the background check system works for me buying from a dealer and it can work if i buy from a private owner. then the anti-gun fear mongers can leave legal gun owners alone and only complain about kids, felons, illegal immigrants, and psychos getting their hands on guns.

 

if you always get this worked up, i suggest you never buy a gun from a licensed dealer again.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Modiano

[gtnichols 51]

No I didn't see 'em,... got any pics or a link??

 

I totally agree. Minimum of 20 years without the possibility of parole for any crime committed with a firearm. Second offense life without the possibility of parole. That would clean the streets up fairly fast I would think.

 

Heh, but who would vote for the Democrats then? (not counting all of the Kool-Aid drinking whites).

 

Anybody see those goofy white bitches jumping around like Hari Krishna's crying and shit at the DNC when Obama talked?

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

My GOD, I'm sick and tired of hearing our own people say they support the elimination of private sales without a background check. THERE IS NO PRIVATE SALE LOOPHOLE, THERE IS NO GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE. The reasons people refer to them as such is that crappy gun laws have been passed that DON'T work and Big Government liberals in both major parties are looking for more excuses to limit freedoms by trying to convince us that MORE laws will stop criminal behavior. Everytime a new law gets passed, there is a new 'loophole' because the law was not more encompassing. Case in point - the 'loophole' that allowed modified 'assualt weapons' to still be sold from 1994 to 2004. I MEAN... DAMN... the liberals banned featues so manufacturers removed them to comply with the law. Then these manufacturers and their new products were demonized for taking advantage of the 'loophole' in the AWB. There was no loophole, the manufacturers did EXACTLY what the law required them to do to comply.

 

The ONLY way to ensure no private sales without a background check is to register all firearms to their owners and have a central database for reference. How else will the government EVER know if you disposed of a gun improperly... especially if they don't know what guns are being transferrred? How can they ever prosecute you for not complying? For over 150 years there was NO paperwork at all via the federal government for gun purchases and sales... then came the NFA. then for another 30+ years no restriction on longarm sales... then came the GCA 1969. Now after 225+ years we're going to limit an INDIVIDUAL's rights to sell a legal product to another law-abiding citizen because it will reduce crime.

 

I'll bet anyone $500 that gun crime WILL NOT go down if/when this type of background requirement goes into effect - UNLESS THERE IS COMPLETE REGISTRATION OF ALL FIREARMS.

 

The easiest way for the our government - THAT WE PAY FOR - to allow individuals to do a background check is to simply open up NCIC and add a 1800 that ANYONE in the United States can call. It's that easy - no dealers, no requirements, no new laws, no penalties for not doing it. Just have an AUTOMATED 1800 number that you can call and get a INSTANT check on anyone in the US. You don't need a SSN if you have a name and address. I have NEVER put a SSN on a 4473 and have NEVER been turned down.

 

HELL, I already CYA with my sales because I will only sell a firearm to an individual with a FL CCW permit or via an online classified ad to individuals out-of-state via their FFL. It's volunatary and my choice... anyone else can do likewise... but I don't encourage or support LAWS THAT MANDATE I go through a dealer for purchases or sales. Hell I rarely sell anything... but when I CHOOSE to do so, I CHOOSE my terms for the sale. If the buyer doesn't like it - F them.

 

 

To the point that we want to treat firearms like used cars... let's elaborate on cars.

 

1. You can build any car, in any configuration to use any fuel you want. It can go as fast as your wallet will allow and be as nimble or rocket-like as you prefer. You can buy any frame, motor, and other parts and build your car with just tools. The only caveat is that your car may, or may not, be allowed to be driven on the public roadway. So in comparison, I'd like to buy any chassis (read machinegun receivers) - and all parts to assemble them with no paperwork, taxes, background checks, or CLEO signatures. I'd like to buy any type of fuel (read AP, API, tracer bullets) for my machineguns. I'd like to be able to take it anywhere that cars are allowed. My only restriction is that I may not be able to drive (read discharge) my machineguns on public roadways. As long as I don't discharge my machineguns on public land, I can take them anywhere in the US and keep them with me and use them privately. That sounds pretty good to me.

 

NASCAR, NHRA and thousands of other folks build anything they want without ANY government restrictions/regulations. The only meaninggul restrictions are (1) the thermodynamic and structural lawas of the universe regarding good, safe design and potentially (2) the PRIVATE governing competitive bodies that regulate the motorized sports - if you CHOOSE to engage in these competitions. Even with that, folks can build anything they want as long as it's raced on a private track that allows it.

 

DAMN... I WISH firearm laws were as rigid as laws regarding cars - because there are none for private built or 'salvaged' scrap.

I agree 100% you hit the nail on the head!

Roger that, the gun show loophole is congruent with global warming. This is yet another liberal attempt to disallow the public sale of private merchandise. What is next ? The lawnmower loophole, the garage sale loophole? This is the same BS the Commie Klinton Admin. pushed on the public. It is mincing of words. I was a kitchen table gun dealer, reality- A federally licensed FFl dealer, Assault Weapons, reality- they do not exsist unless they are a select fire, mid caliber, longarm. Assault pistols, assault knives and get this assault dogs, yes these are REAL discriptors of the aforementioned items. Insurance companies ask if you own assault dogs, nigga pleaze!!

Edited August 29, 2008 by U.S Praetorian

[6x6pinz 4]

The problem with the gun sell/transfer from private hands to private hands is that it will only be done by law abiding citizens. The criminal types don't follow laws or they wouldn't be criminals. I don't like any new laws regarding the sell/transfer of private firearms. The new laws will just make if more difficult for law abiding citizens and criminals will just keep doing the same old thing. All the time and energy that would be spent registering firearms and ammunition would be better spent just upholding the laws that are in place currently. Can't imagine what would happen if the feds would just do their job as it is currently layed out for them.

Take any criminal that is committing a crime now with a gun and add another law for him to break is not going to stop the criminal from his actions. I don't understand why people have a hard time believeing that criminal just don't think the way the law abiding citizen does, if he did he would not be a criminal.

[Modiano 5]

The problem with the gun sell/transfer from private hands to private hands is that it will only be done by law abiding citizens. The criminal types don't follow laws or they wouldn't be criminals. I don't like any new laws regarding the sell/transfer of private firearms. The new laws will just make if more difficult for law abiding citizens and criminals will just keep doing the same old thing. All the time and energy that would be spent registering firearms and ammunition would be better spent just upholding the laws that are in place currently. Can't imagine what would happen if the feds would just do their job as it is currently layed out for them.

Take any criminal that is committing a crime now with a gun and add another law for him to break is not going to stop the criminal from his actions. I don't understand why people have a hard time believeing that criminal just don't think the way the law abiding citizen does, if he did he would not be a criminal.

 

i fully agree that POS criminals aren't going to buy/sell guns legally. but something like transfers would keep people like you and me from unknowingly selling them a gun. generally, it's only a relatively short amount of time till they go back to the pen. it's already illegal to commit a crime with a gun, and if a burglar breaks into 4 houses in an afternoon, i'm sure he'll find a gun thats not in a safe in at least 1 of them. burglary is a crime worth killing somebody over and it should be worth more than 2-5 years in jail. most are just too short sighted to fully consider 5-15 more years in prison. some just can't live without it. but most will slip.

 

i know a particular guy who is a felon. he's a great guy, he's intelligent and has learned alot from his mistakes. he's changed his outlook on life, his personality, and his morals. but it obviously hasn't fully set in that he'll be going back to jail for longer than his original time if he gets caught up doing what felons aren't supposed to be doing.

 

personally, i'd rather everyone go through instant background checks than to live another 10 years under a ridiculous head up the ass "assault weapon ban". maybe it would help some people understand that guns aren't to blame and it would truly be harder for kids, psychos, and felons to get them.

[Gaddis 1,689]

No I didn't see 'em,... got any pics or a link??

 

Naw, I save the TIVO strictly for porn.

 

Here's something from the freerepublic pages though. Kinda small, but it doesn't seem to open up anyymore.

 

 

Just imagine her being older and having one of those stupid "Obama 2008" foam crowns on her head.

[uzitiger 193]

The best thing would be to get the government out of regulating gun ownership. All these laws make it difficult and more expensive for the law abiding to own guns. Take a look at gun and ammo prices lately? I have no problem punishing criminals for using guns in crime but they'll turn the laws against us.

 

Criminals don't always buy guns especially not at gun shows where hundreds of law abiding gun owners meet and wouldn't tolerate them. They buy them on the street or steal them sometimes from police departments. What about the crooked New Orleans police officers who were photographed looting after Katrina?