Paladin_Hammer 8 Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 I went over the thread up top, about WHAT exactly makes a Saiga 922r compliant. But there are a few problems for me. The factory Saiga has 14 parts. I've added a US made Scope, and Scope Mount (Picanny rail system, really nice one to). Does this now mean my rifle has a total of 16 parts? Or are Scopes and their mounts not considered toward the totals? If they are, does this in anyway lower the amount of parts I need to make my rifle 922r compliant? Or does it increase it? If I add a skeleton stock, does this count toward 1 US made part? If so, does this alone make a 30 round magazine legal? Or do I need to then add the trigger group (US made)? Being all that, where can I find the parts I need "Cheap"? Crazy question, I know. But I keep reading about 150 dollar, 200 dollar conversions. On a conversion site, I've read that to simply make the 30 round magazine legal was only, at most, a $50 dollar conversion. The question to me is whether or not using my US made magazine means that my gun needs to be 922R compliant. From what I've read, to use Foreign made mags, yes. But, according to http://savvysurvivor.com/saiga_rifles.htm, the writer states: The great majority of Saigas will not be compatible with standard high capacity AK mags, but as stated earlier, this is an easy fix and it is not unusual for dealers to perform this modification on the guns before retailing them. Legally, this is in a gray area, but realize the gun would only possess one "evil" feature at that point, and now that the Clinton era ban is over, the issue is largely moot, although further modification of the gun, like switching out the trigger group and installing a conventional AK stock and pistol grip will raise the issue of 922R compliance. However, here on Saiga forums you state that I need 1 more US made part to be legal (to use US Made Magazines). Please note: Being confused on the subject, I may not be understanding what exactly he was saying on savvysurvivor, or hwat you guys are saying here. So all I want to know then, I guess, is if all I want to do is use US made magazines (hi-cap, 30 rounders), how many parts will I need to replace? 1, 2, 3, or all 4? Finally, who is the chick in IndyArms avatar? Don't say his wife. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Reading is fundamental Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin_Hammer 8 Posted September 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Problem with that: Using a US made stock and US made mag means that I'd have 12 foreign parts, not ten. Here's where the confusion sets in. you'd have 12 foreign parts with a 3 part US made magazine in it? I"m not understanding. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted September 18, 2008 Report Share Posted September 18, 2008 Paladin Hammer: A US-made magazine has three countable parts, not one. Fourteen minus three for the mag and one for a stock = ten foreign parts =>>922r compliant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin_Hammer 8 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Paladin Hammer: A US-made magazine has three countable parts, not one. Fourteen minus three for the mag and one for a stock = ten foreign parts =>>922r compliant. Huh? Wha-? How does a US made magazine count as three parts? I mean... wouldn't all it be is the magazine??? Let me put it like this: (1) Receiver (2) Barrels (3) Barrel extensions (4) Mounting blocks, trunnion (rifles only) (5) Muzzle attachments (shotguns w/ threaded barrels only) (6) Bolts (7) Bolt carriers (8) Operating rods (9) Gas pistons (10) Trigger housings (11) Triggers (12) Hammers (13) Sears (14) Disconnectors (15) Buttstock (16) Pistol grips (17) Forearms, handguards (18) Magazine bodies (19) Followers (20) Floorplates Now, here is where my lack of knowledge toward a Saiga (guns in general) really hurt me. As far as I can tell, the only thing a magazine meets is Part # 18 (Magazine Bodies). What other two parts a 30 round magazine meet this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Paladin Hammer: A US-made magazine has three countable parts, not one. Fourteen minus three for the mag and one for a stock = ten foreign parts =>>922r compliant. Huh? Wha-? How does a US made magazine count as three parts? I mean... wouldn't all it be is the magazine??? Let me put it like this: (1) Receiver (2) Barrels (3) Barrel extensions (4) Mounting blocks, trunnion (rifles only) (5) Muzzle attachments (shotguns w/ threaded barrels only) (6) Bolts (7) Bolt carriers (8) Operating rods (9) Gas pistons (10) Trigger housings (11) Triggers (12) Hammers (13) Sears (14) Disconnectors (15) Buttstock (16) Pistol grips (17) Forearms, handguards (18) Magazine bodies (19) Followers (20) Floorplates Now, here is where my lack of knowledge toward a Saiga (guns in general) really hurt me. As far as I can tell, the only thing a magazine meets is Part # 18 (Magazine Bodies). What other two parts a 30 round magazine meet this? Looks like 3 parts to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin_Hammer 8 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 (edited) Paladin Hammer: A US-made magazine has three countable parts, not one. Fourteen minus three for the mag and one for a stock = ten foreign parts =>>922r compliant. Huh? Wha-? How does a US made magazine count as three parts? I mean... wouldn't all it be is the magazine??? Let me put it like this: (1) Receiver (2) Barrels (3) Barrel extensions (4) Mounting blocks, trunnion (rifles only) (5) Muzzle attachments (shotguns w/ threaded barrels only) (6) Bolts (7) Bolt carriers (8) Operating rods (9) Gas pistons (10) Trigger housings (11) Triggers (12) Hammers (13) Sears (14) Disconnectors (15) Buttstock (16) Pistol grips (17) Forearms, handguards (18) Magazine bodies (19) Followers (20) Floorplates Now, here is where my lack of knowledge toward a Saiga (guns in general) really hurt me. As far as I can tell, the only thing a magazine meets is Part # 18 (Magazine Bodies). What other two parts a 30 round magazine meet this? Looks like 3 parts to me. I was confused about those. I wasn't exactly sure what the heck Followers and Floorplates were. And because now google isn't helping me, what exactly ARE "Followers" and "Floorplates"? The Spring and Bottom Plate that the rounds sit on? Skeleton Stocks don't count as pistol grips right? I mean like this one: https://www.gilbertsguns.com/Shotguns/Saiga...letonized+Stock Would this (being that it counts as 2 compliance parts), not be legal for my rifle without adding the other US made parts? Edited September 19, 2008 by Paladin_Hammer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 And because now google isn't helping me, what exactly ARE "Followers" and "Floorplates"? The Spring and Bottom Plate that the rounds sit on? Follower - The part that the rounds sit on. The part that is visible at the top, when the mag is empty. Floorplate - The flat plate at the bottom of the mag, that slides out and lets you access the guts of the mag (guts being; follower and spring). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lonerider 1 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Paladin Hammer: A US-made magazine has three countable parts, not one. Fourteen minus three for the mag and one for a stock = ten foreign parts =>>922r compliant. Huh? Wha-? How does a US made magazine count as three parts? I mean... wouldn't all it be is the magazine??? Let me put it like this: (1) Receiver (2) Barrels (3) Barrel extensions (4) Mounting blocks, trunnion (rifles only) (5) Muzzle attachments (shotguns w/ threaded barrels only) (6) Bolts (7) Bolt carriers (8) Operating rods (9) Gas pistons (10) Trigger housings (11) Triggers (12) Hammers (13) Sears (14) Disconnectors (15) Buttstock (16) Pistol grips (17) Forearms, handguards (18) Magazine bodies (19) Followers (20) Floorplates Now, here is where my lack of knowledge toward a Saiga (guns in general) really hurt me. As far as I can tell, the only thing a magazine meets is Part # 18 (Magazine Bodies). What other two parts a 30 round magazine meet this? Looks like 3 parts to me. I was confused about those. I wasn't exactly sure what the heck Followers and Floorplates were. And because now google isn't helping me, what exactly ARE "Followers" and "Floorplates"? The Spring and Bottom Plate that the rounds sit on? Skeleton Stocks don't count as pistol grips right? I mean like this one: https://www.gilbertsguns.com/Shotguns/Saiga...letonized+Stock Would this (being that it counts as 2 compliance parts), not be legal for my rifle without adding the other US made parts? This is a question I have also!!! The Saiga skeleton stock came on my 7.62. Does that count as 2 imported parts causing me to have to replace more parts? I'm not planning on doing a "conversion" right now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cellsworth 21 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 The factory Saiga skeleton stock that some Saigas come with counts as just 1 foreign part. It is considered to be a "thumbhole" stock. Thus it is not considered to have a pistol grip, even though the grip has a pistol grip "look" to it. Check out Dinzagarms.com for an excellent treatment of 922r issues and Saigas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin_Hammer 8 Posted September 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 (edited) The factory Saiga skeleton stock that some Saigas come with counts as just 1 foreign part. It is considered to be a "thumbhole" stock. Thus it is not considered to have a pistol grip, even though the grip has a pistol grip "look" to it. Check out Dinzagarms.com for an excellent treatment of 922r issues and Saigas. I keep getting this nagging feeling that, as I'm looking for a US made buttstock that doubles as a pistol grip , there is someone here who has already been through what I'm going through and knows a solution. The problem with doing a full conversion for me is that then I'd lose the ability to throw on the original stock and use it as a "carbine" style rifle. So of course, finding a US made stock is essential if I'm going to meet 922r compliance (so I can use US made magazines). Dinzagarms.com doesn't have anything on his/their site that meets what I'm looking for. Plenty of conversion parts, no stock+grip parts. I've found this one. But it says it counts as TWO 922r compliance parts. Does this mean instead of having 14 parts total my rifle now has 15 and thus needs ANOTHER part removed? Or, because I now have only 10 Foreign parts, I meet 922r standards? Edited September 19, 2008 by Paladin_Hammer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lonerider 1 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 Damn!!!!! I can Never get Gilbert's Guns to come up on this computer I did find this one http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd133/L.../SaigaFixed.jpg I belive it will count as 2 USA parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 I've found this one. But it says it counts as TWO 922r compliance parts. Does this mean instead of having 14 parts total my rifle now has 15 and thus needs ANOTHER part removed? Or, because I now have only 10 Foreign parts, I meet 922r standards? It means that you need 5 US made parts. Since you are adding 2 US made parts in the stock, that leaves you with only 3 needed elsewhere. This is simple math. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lonerider 1 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 OK, if I get that Ace stock/pistol grip and a handguard and a Surefire 30 rnd mag that's 6 USA parts!!! YEA!!!!! I only want the handguard to be able to see the gas tube! I think the gas tube and barrel profile just says AK-47 !!! I also don't like the T-6 style stocks, they look like a AR/M-4 . Now, just gotta' save up my mad money to do it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
taurussvt 0 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 I don't understand how those 2 stocks would both count as 2 US made parts. Saigas don't come with pistol grip from the factory. You can add a US made pistol grip but it won't count towards compliance because you didn't remove a foreign pistol grip. Now, adding a foreign made pistol grip will add to your foreign parts list. For the OP, if you want to use 30 round US made magazines, you're gonna have to change one more part. I see that you want to be able to use your factory stock once in a while, so changing to a US made one probably isn't a good idea. As soon as you take off your US made stock while having that 30 round magazine in the gun, it's gonna be out of compliance. I would suggest changing the gas piston. http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?Id=a01e...9f-b02ed1117ac9 With the gas piston swapped and a US made magazine inserted, you will be down to exactly 10 foreign parts. That way you can use whatever stock you want and not have to rely on it for compliance. BTW, if you're counting your magazines for compliance, make sure you don't stick a foreign one in that holds more than 10 rounds. I'd also like to add that people who don't do the trigger conversions make the Baby Jesus cry with all this 922R bullshit. If you just do a conversion(conversion back to how the gun was supposed to be) you're already down to 11 foreign parts. Stick a US made piston in it and then you can use whatever magazines or stock sets you want. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SJgunguy 5 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 (edited) If you want to keep the trigger in the stock location than your gonna want the Ace Saiga stock set up. www.aceltdusa.com/SaigaAK This is a complete set. It will give you 1 part towards 922. The handguard counts as 1 part. Now the mag will give 3 more than your safe,BUT you can't use any other type of mag. I would recomend changing the trigger group as well. If the trigger stays in stock location,Dinzags kit is 2 parts. Just for shits and giggles change the gas piston and you will not have any problems. TAPCO has a pistol grip-stock set up that is cheaper and gives the same part count. If you add parts it will not count. (adding a pistol grip) Only count the STOCK O.E. components that have been swapped out with USA components. The stock (1), the handguard (1), The trigger group (2 un converted/ 3 if converted),the gas piston (1). I would go this route so any mag can be used. If you plan on using USA mags 100% of the time then those count as 3 parts. As far as I know these are the easier ways to comply. I have posted 8-9 parts for you. I hope this helps. Edited September 19, 2008 by SJgunguy24 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 I don't understand how those 2 stocks would both count as 2 US made parts. Saigas don't come with pistol grip from the factory. You can add a US made pistol grip but it won't count towards compliance because you didn't remove a foreign pistol grip. Now, adding a foreign made pistol grip will add to your foreign parts list. Factory Saigas do not come with a pistol grip at all. Adding one (via the Ace stock [or now Crapco]) adds to your TOTAL COUNTABLE PARTS. Since it's US made, it doesn't count against you, but it does add to the total parts count. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin_Hammer 8 Posted September 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2008 (edited) I don't understand how those 2 stocks would both count as 2 US made parts. Saigas don't come with pistol grip from the factory. You can add a US made pistol grip but it won't count towards compliance because you didn't remove a foreign pistol grip. Now, adding a foreign made pistol grip will add to your foreign parts list. Factory Saigas do not come with a pistol grip at all. Adding one (via the Ace stock [or now Crapco]) adds to your TOTAL COUNTABLE PARTS. Since it's US made, it doesn't count against you, but it does add to the total parts count. So by adding a stock that counts as TWO parts, and the magazine, total I'll have 15 parts but since 5 are American I've met 922r. Good, thats what I've been after the whole time. Yes, this is simple math. But its simple math, with high stakes involved. If I somehow screwed up (today for example, in a moment of sheer stupidity, I forgot that 4 x 1.25 is 5 dollars), and I made the choices without researching it inside and out, then I'd feel like a bigger numb-nut than if I'd asked someone who knows. So who makes better stock/grip sets? Tapco or Ace? Tapco has a set for only 60 bucks on Gilberts, however when everything ACE and RAA are making is in the 80-200 dollar range, something sounds fishy about that Tapco set. Also whats the cheapest part to replace for 922r compliance, other than the mags and stock? The gas-piston on Tapco doesn't say its made for a Saiga. Edited September 20, 2008 by Paladin_Hammer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 20, 2008 Report Share Posted September 20, 2008 So who makes better stock/grip sets? Tapco or Ace? Tapco has a set for only 60 bucks on Gilberts, however when everything ACE and RAA are making is in the 80-200 dollar range, something sounds fishy about that Tapco set. Also whats the cheapest part to replace for 922r compliance, other than the mags and stock? The gas-piston on Tapco doesn't say its made for a Saiga. Tapco folder vs. ACE folder - forum.saiga-12.com Any US made gas piston will work in the Saiga rifles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted September 26, 2008 Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Stamp 'U.S.' on a part after you spend 8 hours working on it. Or; Stop being Bitches pretending Saigas must be 922® compliant and wringing your panties in gun solvent. Or; stop arguing how many Angels can dance on the head of a fucking pin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted September 27, 2008 Report Share Posted September 27, 2008 Etek, Respectfully.... 922R is the accepted law currently.... This forum MUST take the posture of supporting the laws we currently have... as unpopular as they may be.... Believe me... if you have any documentation that nullifies 922R... I'd LOVE to see it.... Nothing would make me happier. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted September 27, 2008 Report Share Posted September 27, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SJgunguy 5 Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 Wow, this one is gettin intresting. "Motherfucker Please" Phenomenal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
akdog 3 Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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