I've reached a conclusion....

[Tokageko 8]

Being as I had nothing to do this evening, I decided to look through a few other forums that I haven't been to in a while. I have just remembered why. The particulars of the situation involved www.ephilosopher.com and the topic "Is war ever justifiable?". Three pages of inane banter later, I've come to the conclusion that the only people who argue about war are the ones who have never been involved in one. At least, it seemed evident to me that no one who posted had a military backgroung, with one possible exception. So, to that end, I am willing to surmise that any who have been soldiers during a time of war would look at the situation from a completely different perspective, either ignoring the question of justification, or appealing to the complexities of the situation in any given war.

 

I am not myself a soldier. In fact, I'm probably the first in my family (since coming to America) not to be in the military. Consequently, I've had the benefit of a soldier's point of view (from my father), throughout my life. It pains me to see people with no knowledge of war discussing it's morality/ethical implications. What do you guys think about this? Do soldiers uniformly have a different mindset from civilians? Are ethical standards for behaviour different during war? Or are they simply not applicable? I have a pretty developed oppinion regarding these things, but I'd like to hear from other people. People who aren't... or don't necessarily consider themselves to be, philosophers. ; )

 

In other words, I figure I have a better chance at a reasonably civilized conversation here than on ephilosopher. Please, all comments, questions, and oppinions are welcome.

[lollygagger 1]

I'll briefly comment -it's not my style to do so. I usually retain my opinions & thoughts for those that are close (if anybody). Too, if that was my primary interest -to interact regarding such things, I would not be doing so here.

 

I'm sure that active combatants in a war would certainly have a different perspective than non-combatants...no brainer here.

 

That said, to participate as a combatant is hardly a ticket to a comprehensive understanding of a certain war, it's causes and conduct...anymore than eating at a cafe qualifies one as a cook. BTW, at Nuremburg -they hanged the cooks.

 

Each person, each citizen, has his opportunity to determine the significance (or lack of it) in the conflicts his representing government engages in.

 

I would think that ideas of "morality & ethics", real and important as it may be (I think they are) -has little place in active combat, and, can only serve to place the combatant at risk. In war, on the ground level, it's just ballistics, mass & velocity...and what happens to materials that get in the way (like people).

 

It's interesting that governments (a imperfect reflection of the collective of use all) have great stacks of laws regarding consequences should the individual protect himself, his family, his property -with potential great penality of law if he does so, and, should bring injury or death to what has threatened him...

 

So, being placed in a cage (jail/prison) is seen as justified -justice. And, the person deemed to have moral/ethical lackings.

 

But!!! In time of war, the individual, without direct threat to his person -can not only be relieved of the consequences of law in the service of the needs of that government, but raised to great honor & esteem for whatever destruction, mayhem and chaos that serves that government's needs (at that particular time -subject to change, of course).

 

The dycotomy does so much damage to the understanding of what is moral and what is ethical, as to make the discussion largely meaningless, and, a form of mental masturbation -a parlor drinking game that continues to be popular.

 

My personal take: Be kind of "zen" about it -look, feel, learn, and make your OWN best decisions and choices as you are reasonably able, knowing they will be flawed -and LIVE WITH IT. There really isn't any other course -other than the Curley, Larry & Moe stuff.

 

That's my thoughts on it. I don't expect (or care) if they matter much to anyone else -that's the nature of such.

 

Lollygagger (strange topic post for here)

[pistonring8 1]

Wow, interesting topic. I joined at the beginning of Desert Storm, but by the time I was out of boot.... it was over! The military still gave all us newbies a ribbon for service in a time of war. Needless to say, this did not sit well at all with the guys comming back from being in country. So not only is there a difference between civilians and military when it comes to attitudes and understandings of war. But a BIG difference in the relationships between the enlisted who are in the US doing thier time and thoes who are out doing thier job.

[Gaddis 1,689]

The radical Muslims (which we now fight) have been needing a good a$$ whipping for a long while now.

 

That's all I have to say about that subject.

 

Not to say the United States has engaged in totally unnecessary wars (cough - Korea, Viet Nam). The typical Vietnamese or Korean farmer could give two shits about whether a bunch of Communists or a Democratic society ran his country, just as long as he had enough rice to feed his family (well, as long as madman such as Stalin was not in charge).

 

Americans have complete choice whether they want to follow Communist ideals or not and not have to worry about radical Communists wanting to kill them (maybe? ). The radical Muslims want us to follow *EXACTLY* what they say or believe in (even if it perverts what the Koran itself spells out), and if we dare to refuse, they desire to see us dead.

 

Off tangent here, but the one thing that really cheezes me about living in a truly free society like the United States idolizes to be (except for the few Socialists we seem to have trying to sieze power) is that the people who do the *LEAST* to defend the freedoms we enjoy are usually the *ONES* to use these freedoms the most.

 

i.e. - the liberal media major college draft dodger who fled to Canada during the Viet Nam war (whether unjust or not) who then uses his media pulpit when back in this country (after being pardoned by a liberal President) to then slander the United States on it's policies every chance s/he gets.

[G O B 3,516]

War is the ultimate obcenity. In war the youth of the lower classes pay with their blood to settle a pissing contest between powerfull old men.

 

With that said-anyone who is not willing to resist with their lives in war to save what is dear to them, does not deserve what they have.

 

One old man's voice- There is a yin/yang to everything. The less you are willing to fight for what is dear to you, the more likely you are to have to fight to keep it. The more willing that you are to fight, the less likley that what you find yourself fighting for will truthfully be what is dear to you. Wisdom is to be found in the words of those who have been there and done that, and can make decisions based on experience and cold logic. BEWARE of the ones who beat the drums of war and shout about their "love of god and country" - if you follow the money it flows into their pockets. If the truth be known what they are espousing is their "love of gold and power"

 

G O B

[Tokageko 8]

As was said, a strange topic, but I wanted to hear specifically what members of this forum think. ; ) Consider it a compliment, please. As far as the differences between groups of people go: I find myself frustrated by the lack of tolerance for diversity, especially among those who claim to champion it as a virtue.

 

Being a soldier means being different in mindset from the rest of the civilian population. I'm very happy to see the amount of moral support that our troops are getting during this war. I sincerely hope that those returning from Iraq do not go through what those returning from Vietnam did. I've heard from several veterans, how bad it was to be a soldier in the US during the late 60's and early 70's. It strikes me as odd that so many people saw nothing wrong with beating (figuratively) on those who protect them. Suffice it to say, I have great respect for everyone who serves their country.

 

I also believe (and would like to hear comments on) that an understanding of military arts is necessary for the education of a responsible citizen. Discipline, determination, respect, courage.... these are the attributes that I see people lacking in. I've watched several people essentially self-destruct because of a lack of conviction. They just gave up, and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Lord knows I and others tried. But in the end, the will to live (as opposed to merely surviving) has to be found within.

 

With this, I am nearly positive that I am preaching to the choir. On the other hand, I think these are subjects that need to be brought up, and far too often are ignored... or taken for granted. It's a human thing: we tend to believe (in general, as a group) that other people are just like us. Why talk about something everybody knows eh? ; ) The problem is that they don't necessarily know anything, or take the time to really try to understand other points of view or their consequences. Sometimes it's as simple as a misunderstanding where no one gets hurt. Other times... a muslim man lies bleeding, asking for a doctor, only to pull the pin on a grenade when US/coalition soldiers try to help him.

 

What's the point of this? I like the mental masturbation theory. ....but seriously, I want to know that I'm not alone. Further questioning is welcome. Thank you for the replies so far; good post Lollygagger, same for you pistonring8.

 

Sincerely,

Tokageko

[Tokageko 8]

Ah, a few more snuck in while I was writing. Thank you. Thank you. This is the kind of discussion I love.

 

Keep up the good work,

Tokageko

[Bvamp 604]

ill keep my comment on this as short as i can keep it.

 

i think that 1 or even 10 percent of any population of any country that conducts itself in the manner that we have seen several do in recent years is not only shameful, but is illegal in any book of law in this world, including these so-called "god manuals" written by men, to put fear into men that would otherwise have no fear, and thus no reason to conduct themselves as human beings. slaughter them like the animals they are.

 

i do little things in my everyday life to thank servicemen that I see. I will give up a front row spot at the mall for a veteran's or POW plated vehicle. I regularly walk right up to veterans and thank them for doing what i didnt have to. ive bought a lot of them lunch without asking them first. Ive mailed "questionable" items to guys in afghanistan AND iraq. why? because they wanted it. ive even jumped into an arguement that i overheard involving a veteran of ww2 and some fool trying to pull stupid shit about whos fault it was that caused the bump in the parking lot. guess who i saw do it? it wasnt the vet.....

 

I normally extend this type of behavior tword other public servants, although my patience with them is tested too often for my own good.

 

I am only dissapointed with our servicemen only in the respect that they cant kill more of the enemy faster and in greater numbers.

 

and i never forget that they all do what i didnt have to...

[Jofus 0]

Lollygagger, your post was flat out amazing, well thought out, and I agree with you completely.

 

That said, someone was asking about whether us Vets feel it would be good for the general populace to have to do a mandatory stint in the service. I'm of two minds on this one. Good for the populace, yes. Also, for the most part, good for the Armed Services.

 

These lazy, spoiled, Mtv generation teens need a good waking up with trash cans, and all the discipline any Armed Force can muster.

 

However, in my year in Korea, I saw that a nonvolunteer Army can be hurt by lack of motivation. We mainly had KATUSAs in our unit (Korean Augmentee to US Army), and they pan out to being the Air Force in terms of good treatment, and all around better stuff. The ROK Army guys are about equal to our Marines, and every single one of them I met was hard fookin core. Anyway, we were going over setting up claymores, lanes of fire, etc when one of our KATUSAs got a case of the ass and started just throwing his claymores down the lane instead of feeding the wire (lazy little bastage). That kind of sloth can get folks killed in a real situation.

 

I know that isn't an absolute for all their behavior, but its a good example...hell after six years in, I saw plenty of lazy GIs too...but that one stands out.

Well, hope I didn't blither on too long.

[Tokageko 8]

Mandatory military service....

 

Well, it's done in a number of countries, but as was pointed out by Jofus, it's effectivness is not completely ensured. While I do think that everyone should know how to/be able to defend themselves and their families, it is also obvious that military service is not for everyone. Let me rephrase that, combat is not for everyone. I'm sure there are plent of non-combat jobs that young men and women could preform in order to fulfill a service requirement. It would be a great way (as is joining the Reserves now) of learning job skills, and dare I say: a good preparation for college. Yet, once again... you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. It's like anything else. You get out of it what you put into it (usually). All that being said, I'm not necessarily sure that a term of service to the government should be mandatory. What it comes down to for me is: I see a problem, I think there's a way it could be fixed, but in reality you can't pass laws to make people behave differently. It would take away that all important element of choice (if you have any existentialist leanings). Besides, the means to get ahead in life, to be sucessful, and happy are already there (at least in the US). Everyone gets at least 12 years of education. I think that's a good thing. People should come out of that system prepared to take charge of their lives. But that often isn't the goal or the job of the teachers/administrators. In actuality, that is what parents are supposed to do. I personally think that the idea of our federal government becoming a surogate parent for everyone is disgusting. No... like it or not, everyone has the right to not take advantage of anything. I don't have much respect for those people and I don't think I should have to support them through taxes, but you can't force them choose. Unless of course... no, that's for another discussion entirely.

 

Oh, by the way: I can't speak for anyone else, but blither on as long as you want. ; ) This is some of the better reading I've done in a while.

 

All the best,

Tokageko

[Rebel 0]

Are ethical standards for behaviour different during war?  Or are they simply not applicable? 

I don't know.All I can say is that when I was on 25mm watch aboard the USS Lake Champlain in the Persian Gulf,I couldn't wait for some idiot in a small boat to start sh*t with us so I could blow it out of the water! If the 5" didn't get it sooner!

 

Hey,that was my mindset then,as with everyone else's.It was our job. It was all rather surreal.Ethics really wasn't a factor.My primary job was Sonar Technician. Over 100 crew members of an enemy submarine could be killed due to me,all while I sit behind a screen drinking a coke.

[Tokageko 8]

That's about what I expected to hear. Just happy to have someone confirm it.

[Guest great topic, great thinking by a]

Mandatory Military Service: Personally I think it would be a great idea to see in this country. I do believe that by serving (though never having done so myself) the mass would have a greater appreciation of this country and it's ideals. But sadly we do live in a "free society", to which people have the choice of whether they want to serve in the armed services or not. And like stated before it is mandatory in several countries (Israel, Eygpt to name a few).

 

Ethics throughout warfare? I'm sure that people do have their moral standards through a conflict, but they go and do what they are ordered (which we all know is not a valid defense, i.e. Germans during WWII, Americans at Mai LI (spelling?) during Viet Nam.) But I believe that the most primal instincts such as survival come to life when faced by someone that hates you more than anything in this world and his only intention is to kill you. I personally would not hesitate to defend my life when face to face with an enemy, though I do believe that murder is wrong, immoral (though it seems to be all right during warfare.) The military has tried for years and years using propaganda to turn that country's enemies into nothing more than animals (no longer human beings), for me it is easy to kill an animal and feel no remorse than it would be to kill a human being. Look at WWI, during X-mas 1914/15 there was actually a "non-official" truce that broke out amongst soldiers of both sides (primarily British and German troops). They gathered together in the middle of "no-man's land", sang christmas carrols in their native tongues to one another, traded uniforms, befriended one another, took group photos of opposing soldiers hugging one another. EACH AND EVERY GOVERNMENT ISSUED PROCLAMATIONS STATING THAT THIS BEHAVIOR WAS TO BE TREATED AS HIGH TREASON WITH THE PUNISHMENT OF DEATH. Now how can you kill your enemy efficiently and without qualms if he has a face, that he recognizes you as a human being, not some animal? As Lee Marvin said in "The Big Red One" : "You don't murder animals, you kill them. You don't murder the enemy, you kill him."

So ethics through warfare? They are there, but they differ from the viewpoint of the civilian. A civilian cannot understand or comprehend the hardships, the fear, the commraderie that binds, that someone serving in a "hot-zone" is undergoing, I cannot begin to even think of what my father and many more of his generation went through in viet nam, or those in korea, WWII etc etc. Though the reasons are vastly different per conflict they are yet the same for each. (if that makes any sense)....

 

But those are my views...they matter to me, and I hope the make sense to anyone else.

[G O B 3,516]

Having done my time on a diesel sub, I probably have a different perspective than the dogface that is eyeball to eyeball with the enemy. On the boat the #1 overriding concern is to come back alive. Many times we would be on 'ops' that only a limited number of people on board were briefed on. It was not unusual for the majority of the crew to have no idea WHERE we were. You just do your job. Operate those planes, steer your helm, run your engines-watever the job that you did, it was a job that you did. I can say that there was never a instant of doubt WHAT we were there FOR. When the shit hit the fan we were the ones who would be the first to make the other guy die for HIS country. If an attack was coming our job was to cut it off and make them verry sorry they tried that. If an attack were to have happened we were to extract the most terrible vengence that was in our power.

In a wartime situation it is sometimes necessary to torpedo ships carrying civilians. Even cargoships may have civilians on board. No moral dillema with that--it is there SINK IT! As I said before, the whole idea is to make the other guy die for HIS country.Any way to remove the wherewithall for your enemy to wage war is fair game. Men, materials,equipment. We send it to the bottom where it can't be used against us.

 

G O B

[Doerdie 0]

As Colin Powell said, the military is designed to "kill people and break things". Thats their job, and they are damn good at it. I have all the respect in the world for anyone who serves, and then some.

I never even cared about the military until I had kids. Now I have an 11 year old girl and 8 year old boy. To know that men and women are willing to give there life (and have) to protect my kids (just as I would) leaves me in awe of their courage and sacrifice.

I thank god for the brave men and women that have served, and are currently serving, our country. I think we should thank them, veterans and active military, personally whenever we have the opportunity. I do.

I believe 4 years of military service should be mandatory after graduation. I would have done wonders for me!

As far as the politics go, the class warfare brought up in this country by people is more destructive than the real wars. I dont give a crap if someone is rich or poor, powerful or weak, they ain't no better than anyone else. Politicians trying to win votes by dividing the country along social line do not deserve a place in our political system and will never win. John Kerry and Al Gore found that out.

Thats why I became a Republican years back, I was sick of the poor being told it was the rich that held them down, all the while my mom worked 3 jobs to support 6 kids. No one held her down, she made her life and now is "rich". She busted her a$$ for every dollar, we ate hamburger helper with fake beef and drank powdered milk because we couldn't afford the real stuff.

Now I bust my a$$, and may or may not be "rich" when I am her age. But the end result will be all my doing, not someone elses fault. And I will remember then, like I do now, that someone gave their life for me to enjoy freedom, and all that comes with it. Ok, I am done ranting....whew!

Please vote for me for Congress? Mayor? Student Council?

 

If we are at war, they should do whatever it takes to win... screw the ethics. They went out the door on Spetember 11, 2001 in my opinion.

Edited January 14, 2005 by Doerdie

[Tokageko 8]

... and a good oppinion it is. It's refreshing to hear anyone say these kinds of things in a public place. It gives me hope for the future of this country to know that there still are people of honor, courageous and dedicated to doing what is right.... and that they are exposing their children to this way of thinking. Respect is important; that can't be stressed enough, especially regarding those who risk their lives for their people, their country. Too many of them are taken for granted. A lot of people I know, liberals especially, have no understanding of why it is neccessary to have a military: to be ready and willing to do whatever it takes to triumph over any enemy, foreign or domestic. I hope that in coming generations, there will be a greater awareness of what it takes to survive and prosper in the real world. Part of that is knowing that physical violence is the ultimate form of accountability, and accepting the consequences of that knowledge.