Mac 10 and Mac 11?

[Racer 27 37]

What's the difference between them? Thinking about getting one in 9mm and making another one. But what is the difference? Googled but didn't find anything.

[kingjoey 5]

What's the difference between them? Thinking about getting one in 9mm and making another one. But what is the difference? Googled but didn't find anything.

 

The MAC-10 is the larger one, built for the 45ACP and then for the 9mm. The MAC-11 is smaller and was built for the 9mm. The MAC-11A1 is a smaller version of the MAC-11 and is built for the .380ACP. The frames and uppers are different on each gun, but some of the smaller parts interchange. We make HD buffers and hammer pins for the MAC-11 and MAC-11A1, but nothing for the MAC-10 right now.

[Racer 27 37]

If you were to get one which one would be the best? Most parts and accessories? Thinking about getting one with the sten mags kit. I'm guessing your leaning to the Mac 11.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Racer 27

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

MAC, standing for military armament corp. is insolvent. They produced the MAC-10 which is .45 ACP. SWD, RPB, Cobray and Masterpiece arms as well as Leniad produce the M-11 or M11/9 or MPA-10 and 30 which is .45 and 9mm respectively. The MAC series weapons, .45, 9mm and .380 are generally NFA, class III weapons but all can be had in semi-auto versions. SWD and Cobray are insolvent. Cobray does produce parts and Leniad makes complete Cobray weapons. The largest mfg. is MPA (masterpiece). Look at their site and M11.com for more info and if your contemplating a SMG, look at the Lage MAX-11 upper, google Lage. This is a superb item that puts the M-11 system equal to or better than HK in performance. They are pricey but nowhere near what the Krauts want.

[Racer 27 37]

U.S Praetorian thanks just found the M11.com before I posted my question and haven't looked it over yet.

 

Eta I was wondering where the extra long upper came from.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Racer 27

[Gunfixr 76]

As I understand it, from the original designer, the MAC 10 was in 45acp, and a 9mm model was later added. A much smaller version was also added in 380acp, which was the MAC 11.

This was of course Gordan Ingram's original guns, made by the Military Armament Corporation (MAC). They went bankrupt. After several companies came and went, finally Cobray came along and got the rights. They redesigned it, making it lighter and thinner at least. They dropped the 45acp version entirely, and renamed the 9mm gun the M11/9mm.

Cobray is more or less gone now, but a new company, Masterpiece Arms, now makes the original type guns, both a 45acp and a 9mm version, the fat heavy ones as designed by Ingram. Cobray parts are still available, and guns occaisionally show up.

The biggest downfall of the Cobray was/is the Zytel magazine. It's crappy, there's just no other way to put it. As you noted, there is a Sten magazine well kit available, and it uses unmodified Sten mags. If you're going to build a gun, I would build the Sten mag gun, as it would be easier than cutting out the Zytel magwell to reweld in the Sten magwell. FWIW, the Masterpiece Arms 9mm gun uses Sten mags from the factory, and the 45acp gun uses grease gun mags.

 

Last year I built a Cobray M11/9mm kit in 7.62x25 Tokarev, using a PPSh 41 barrel and CZ26 magazines. The magwell had to be custom made. It works pretty good, I've run a little over 1000 rds through it. It was kinda fun to build, as the original Cobrays weren't put together that well, and building it allowed me to do a better job than they did.

 

BTW, FTF Industries www.ftfindustries.com carries the Cobray parts, as well as the Sten mag kits and some other specialty items for M11s.

[Racer 27 37]

Gunfixr did you have anything like a build guide to go off of. I'm new into working on firearms. I put a ar lower together and converted my saiga 12, I also can do pretty much anything on a race car or street car. I've had the thought about trying to get one to work with a cproducts 9mm mag. I'm thinking about getting blue prints and making my own reciever.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Racer 27

[Gunfixr 76]

I didn't have a blueprint. The kit I had was a complete gun except for the center section of the receiver was missing, which I made, figuring it out. FTF has the receiver parts though, all you'd have to do is weld them together in the correct alignment. Since they're not assembled, it's not yet a receiver, and you can just order it through the mail. They also have all the parts for a semiauto kit. They may have a blueprint.

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

Lage makes metal inserts for the feed lips on the zytel mags which really fixes the problem. I bought a bunch of south african mags from CDNN way back, that are all steel and made like an AK mag, as far as reliability and durability. They are really the best but are not available any more. MPA uses the Sten mags which are supposed to work very well. C-prod. and uzi mags will need to open up the magwell due to width issues but I suppose it could be done. There is an outfit, whose name escapes me that make a model that uses the drum mags for 7.62x25 (Soumi?)

Edited February 6, 2009 by U.S Praetorian

[Racer 27 37]

i'll check them out, going to now.

 

I was thinking about using the cnc turret machine at work to punch the receiver out, bend it on the press brake, and buy a parts kit but if its already bent that would be great. Is it where you weld the side of the receiver on? What is the best way to do that? I have a tig and mig at the (my family owned) shop. I haven't tiged at all but I'm okay with the wire feed. The blue print that I was asking about was to make the receiver.

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

Lage makes metal inserts for the feed lips on the zytel mags which really fixes the problem. I bought a bunch of south african mags from CDNN way back, that are all steel and made like an AK mag, as far as reliability and durability. They are really the best but are not available any more. MPA uses the Sten mags which are supposed to work very well. C-prod. and uzi mags will need to open up the magwell due to width issues but I suppose it could be done. There is an outfit, whose name escapes me that make a model that uses the drum mags for 7.62x25 (Soumi?)

That would be Stoneycreek Armory

[Racer 27 37]

Thanks again Us P. I'll be checking that out in the morning some more.

[Racer 27 37]

So who all has one? And would you buy it again?

[Gunfixr 76]

You can buy all of the receiver pieces and they are already bent, they just need welding together. I TIG'ed mine, but that's pretty much the only type of welding I use for gun work. You can get the two sides, center section, back plate, triggerguard/feedramp, and magwell. I don't know about a magwell to use the CProducts mags. If you get the Sten magwell, make sure you get the center section cut for Sten mags. I haven't looked at the CProducts mags, you might have to modify a magwell and center section to work. I had to do that for the CZ26 mag, since the 7.62 round is somewhat longer than 9mm.

 

The Lage upper is pretty cool, I have a friend with a FA (registered) Cobray M11 with the Lage upper. I've fired his, and it's quite smooth, smoother than the unmodified FA Cobray I got to fire some years ago. Mine is just a semiauto though, since you can't legally build an FA unless you're an SOT FFL and it's a Post Ban Dealer Sample, which means it wouldn't be transferable, or it's for a Gov't agency or LE agency.

[Racer 27 37]

Looks like the Tromix butt stock.

[Gunfixr 76]

To answer your question, we got a couple more kits, and I've thought about building one in 9mm, but using the Sten mags. I didn't know about the feedlip inserts, but either way, the Sten mags are cheaper and more plentiful.

 

Lage makes the Tromix buttstock for Tromix.

[Racer 27 37]

That is why they look the same then.

 

Anyone have a LRBHO for these yet?

[Gunfixr 76]

None of the MAC series, by any of the manufacturers, have had a LRBHO.

 

None of the guns that the mags come from, Sten, Grease gun, etc., had LRBHOs.

[Racer 27 37]

That was 1 of my thoughts about trying to use the cprod mags. I've got lots of ideas but not the skills or knowledge to fulfill them yet.

 

If you order from the ftf website, your at 460 to make your own but i've seen prices to buy complete for 360. I'll look around some more yet. I just need to get when of these yet.

[Twinsen 86]

There was the MAC 10 in .45, then one in 9mm came out.

-You can tell these apart as they are much larger than the rest.

 

They shrunk the design down to half size for the MAC 11, in .380.

-You can tell these apart as they are tiny, made for little elf hands.

 

They then took the MAC 11 and lengthened it a lot so as to contain a spring and bolt capable of firing 9mm.

-You can tell these apart as they are long and really ugly.

 

My friend has a MAC 10 in .45, fully automatic, and it cycles at 1560rpm. MAC 11s fire in the 1800-1900rpm range, crazy fast.

[banshee 69]

I have a Powder springs MAC-10 in .45ACP. In full auto it is a fun to shoot, and will empty a 30rd mag in 1.5 secomds, but when fired in semi-auto they suck.

 

 

The full auto guns in the video are mine the first one a is a STEN MKII and the last one is a MAC-10 with a AWC suppresor. The mag dump was 30rds

 

http://tired-iron.mounet.com/ride_in_shoot_out.wmv

Edited February 6, 2009 by Banshee

[Gunfixr 76]

Yeah, as a semiauto pistol, it ain't hitting on much. The sights suck, and it's bulky and heavy. The only thing going for it is the high capacity. When I built mine, I planned on a couple uses for it, and built accordingly. I added a short rail on top, behind the cocking knob slot. It has a small red dot on it, a knockoff of the Burris Speed dot, or the old Docter Optics sight. I also added a sling mount directly to the back of the receiver. The reason for this was to use a sling as a sort of "hasty stock" like is done with the MP5K. The problem has turned out to be that it wobbles around when firing, as the sling only attaches at one point. I left the PPSh41 barrel at the original 10", and covered it with a dummy suppressor tube, which gave me a front holding area. You can't put a VFG on it though,like the MP5K has, unless you register it as an AOW. I did put a strap on it, which is legal, but doesn't do much. No wonder it's legal. Recently, I added a second sling mount at the bottom of the magwell/pistol grip. This was a 100% improvement, as now, when the sling is over the shoulder and pulled tight at arms length, the two points make for a pretty ridgid setup. It's almost like a stock.

I have considered registering it as an SBR and putting a stock on it, but haven't made that decision yet. Since making an AOW and making an SBR are the same, might as well go SBR and get both the stock and VFG.

I'm fixing to build a CZ26 semiauto here soon, and it already has a stock, so I'm thinking of leaving the Cobray alone, and just SBR'ing the CZ.

Here's a pic of the Cobray, but it's before adding the second sling point:

[Eric Pate 478]

Great site for general MAC info:

http://www.mac-11.net/whyc.htm

Lage's website:

http://www.max-11.com/

Uzitalk/MAC Forum (great info here, just takes a second to register)

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82

 

FYI you should do a little research before ordering anything from Stonycreek Armory. NOT a good rep in the biz.

There is not currently a ready supply of converted Suomi drums available. They are notoriously difficult to get to work correctly and the best ones were made by CSA (I think?) and currently go for about $400!

The best metal magazines are from Jerry Prasser at Recon Ordnance. These are the reconditioned South American PAMII mags. You have to e-mail him though, he doesn't have a website.

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

That is why they look the same then.

 

Anyone have a LRBHO for these yet?

The FA models of course, fire from an open bolt so they have a BHO mech of sorts. No such creature in the semi. Richard Lage has told me that this year he will have a MAX-11 SEMi upper ready, which is my interest. With this and a good red dot it will be quite useable since the iron sites are crude at best. I have a hell-fire mech on mine which simulates FA and it works very well. Since the cyclical rate is around 800rpm you can empty 32 rounds quickly however, I can get 6-8 round bursts without a problem. The Lage semi upper with its long bolt will decrease this to around 500-600 rpm.

 

Never ordered from Stony creek so I cannot comment on their service. It would probably be wise to heed the advice of the member who experienced the poor service. I do not really like the drum configuration they offer anyway. I think if you want a good reliable and handsome configuration to the MAC type weapons Lage is the best choice.

 

Lastly, if you do not go the SBR route the 16in carbine uppers with a red dot and the hellfire work surprisingly well and the accuracy is very acceptable because of the stock and and forearm.

Edited February 6, 2009 by U.S Praetorian

[banshee 69]

That is why they look the same then.

 

Anyone have a LRBHO for these yet?

The FA models of course, fire from an open bolt so they have a BHO mech. No such creature in the semi. Richard Lage has told me that this year he will have a MAX-11 SEMi upper ready, which is my interest. With this and a good red dot it will be quite useable since the iron sites are crude at best. I have a hell-fire mech on mine which simulates FA and it works very well. Since the cyclical rate is around 800rpm you can empty 32 rounds quickly however, I can get 6-8 round bursts without a problem. The Lage semi upper with its long bolt will decrease this to around 500-600 rpm.

 

Never ordered from Stony creek so I cannot comment on their service. It would probably be wise to heed the advice of the member who experienced the poor service. I do not really like the drum configuration they offer anyway. I think if you want a good reliable and handsome configuration to the MAC type weapons Lage is the best choice.

 

Lastly, if you do not go the SBR route the 16in carbine uppers with a red dot and the hellfire work surprisingly well and the accuracy is very acceptable because of the stock and and forearm.

 

 

no BHO on my full auto MAC. When you run out of ammo the bolt stops closed

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

That is why they look the same then.

 

Anyone have a LRBHO for these yet?

The FA models of course, fire from an open bolt so they have a BHO mech. No such creature in the semi. Richard Lage has told me that this year he will have a MAX-11 SEMi upper ready, which is my interest. With this and a good red dot it will be quite useable since the iron sites are crude at best. I have a hell-fire mech on mine which simulates FA and it works very well. Since the cyclical rate is around 800rpm you can empty 32 rounds quickly however, I can get 6-8 round bursts without a problem. The Lage semi upper with its long bolt will decrease this to around 500-600 rpm.

 

Never ordered from Stony creek so I cannot comment on their service. It would probably be wise to heed the advice of the member who experienced the poor service. I do not really like the drum configuration they offer anyway. I think if you want a good reliable and handsome configuration to the MAC type weapons Lage is the best choice.

 

Lastly, if you do not go the SBR route the 16in carbine uppers with a red dot and the hellfire work surprisingly well and the accuracy is very acceptable because of the stock and and forearm.

 

 

no BHO on my full auto MAC. When you run out of ammo the bolt stops closed

I meant a BHO of sorts. When you charge the weapon to fire the bolt remains open, on the last round yes, it closes. So not really a LRBHO. Slight confusion of terminology. More of a FRBHO.

Edited February 6, 2009 by U.S Praetorian

[Racer 27 37]

I have a Powder springs MAC-10 in .45ACP. In full auto it is a fun to shoot, and will empty a 30rd mag in 1.5 secomds, but when fired in semi-auto they suck.

 

 

The full auto guns in the video are mine the first one a is a STEN MKII and the last one is a MAC-10 with a AWC suppresor. The mag dump was 30rds

 

http://tired-iron.mounet.com/ride_in_shoot_out.wmv

 

 

Banshee what kind of safety is on yours? And where can you get one?

[Eric Pate 478]

Looks like the factory slide-safety to me. Lage sells a much-improved extended safety that is easier to use and is also much safer, IMO.

 

BTW, there are many more aftermarket add-ons available for the M11/9, although the MAC10 is a blast to shoot for sure. Keep in mind that .45 ammo is considerably more expensive than 9mm, and at about 1000-1200 RPM it adds up quick!

 

 

Edited to add: Here's a closer video of me shooting a Lage-equipped M11/9 with and without suppressor. Notice the insane amounts of gas blowback with the can attached. Definately need to invest in Lage's gas-block!

http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd24/di...nt=MVI_0472.flv

Edited February 6, 2009 by DistalRadius

[banshee 69]

yea, it a standard factory slide-safety . I never use the safety on an open bolt gun. I leave the bolt closed until I am ready to fire. It is easier and quicker to pull the bolt back than messing with the safety.

[Eric Pate 478]

Ha ha, yeah I never use my safety either. I only consider it safe with the bolt open and magazine removed. I think the extended safety is only important if you're competing in matches. Not to mention the OEM internal safety slide is made out of that cheap alloy, whatever it is.

 

Oh, and I just remembered, the favored drums were made by C&S Metallwerkes, not CSA. (Although Conderate States of America would be a good name for a manufacturer! I'm an idiot!)