emr454 1 Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Does anyone know if it is legal to use a 10 round .410 mag in a Saiga that has not been converted? Im in New York so I have no idea if it is legal or not. Thanks in advance. Eric Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aethelbert 1 Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Eric - No problem at this point (from a Fed point of view) with a 10-rd mag in your unconverted Saiga .410 but NewYork? Ah! New York. . . I'm afraid I would have to be cautious about New York just as I would be about the restrictions in California. You might check with the NY State Attorney General's website about this. If you do, how about reporting back to the rest of us? Best to you, Eric! Aethelbert (aka Bert) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I live in NY, and I have a converted Saiga .410 SUPPOSEDLY... it is illegal to have the highcap mags in NY on a shotgun... Your best bet... is to sell them to me... and I will take the heat for you!! LOL Seriously, though.. I have HEARD it is illegal.. I know WHERE I LIVE, no one will bother you unless you are doing something stupid with your .410. I have had local LEO's shooting my technically ILLEGAL guns.. and having a blast at the shooting range... not only didnt they CARE... they dont even KNOW whats legal or not... but then... where I live... its all countryside and farmland.. and theres lots of guns around... rarely are they used in crimes around here.. ( cept in the inner cities...but thats not really "around here") I wouldnt worry about it too much.. less ya live CLOSE to the NYC... or a MAJOR city...Chances of you gettng busted for a high cap mag alone is slim... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emr454 1 Posted February 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 (edited) Thanks Indy. I live out in the country too and not many cops come down the road here (its a dead end road) I"m really thinking of buying one to convert but the 10 round mags are PRICEY! Eric I see in you profile you live near Syracuse. Whereabouts near Syracuse? I'm only 30 mins from there. Edited February 9, 2005 by emr454 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NedPepper 0 Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 (edited) I might part with my 410 converted. Tired of waiting for a bunch of 10 rnd mags. The whole idea was to take the kids out blasting clay pidgeons..but now I'm having seconds thoughts...safety and ammo prices of 410. I just ordered a Saiga 12...for ME! Call on me if you are thinking about buyng a 2nd 410. I'll post a pic after dinner. Hbg, PA Edited February 18, 2005 by NedPepper Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 I can show you where it says it is illegal in our facist state, eric. the .410 is still a shotgun in new york's eyes, and it is imported, AND it is semiautomatic. detachable mag or not, you can only put 5 rounds in it, and cannot pistol grip it. the 10 round shotgun mag is considered a "high capacity feeding device" manufactured after 1994, and this is decided by the local state police, not ATF, so that is illegal to bring into the state, and the gun with one clipped to it becomes an assault weapon in the eyes of new york state. because these are NY state laws, the 922 has already been applied, and just because it fits the 922 shoe if you US parted it out, it still dont fit the facist NY shoe. I asked numerous people about it. I asked my attourney who is very pro gun, I asked two cops, and I asked a reitred judge to exaplin it to me. thats what they all said. here is our facist state's website, directly to the illegal gun legislation that was passed by our two faced governor and senators. http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=82&a=68 here is the only chance of it being exempt ...I had thought this made the saiga shotguns an exception: .... (e) provided, however, that such term does not include: (i) any rifle, shotgun or pistol that (A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever or slide action; ( has been rendered permanently inoperable; or © is an antique firearm as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16); (ii) a semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; (iii) a semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine; ... I asked several sources, including the local shop owners that KNOW what they are talking about, and everyone including them, say that because they MAKE the magazines, it doesnt matter if you cant GET them or HAVE them, but they MAKE them, so it CAN accept a 8 or 10 rounder, it is NOT exempt from AW status with a mag cap of greater than 5 rounds. .... 22. "Assault weapon" means ... ... ( a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds; (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; or .... look familiar guys? yeh, one trait. the mag. you are guilty of possession of the AW if the more than 5 round shotgun mag is on your property, much the same as having an NFA part in your garage, and the gun it fits in the house. if you want to ruin your evening, read the rest of those laws. I think IndyArms decided to move when he read them after I showed him the specifics. did you know you are a criminal in NY if you have more than 4 guns in a car at any time? did you know you cant have more than 19 on your PROPERTY? I have no clue what happens if you have 19 guns at home, and a buddy drops by with two of his own to target shoot with, but Im sure they will look at you funny and give you a major case of heartburn... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 (edited) I'm not too up on the shotguns. Is it pretty easy to 'convert' a 5rnd mag to hold 10? The same as trimming the follower on a .308 mag to hold 10, or what? I'm seriously thinking about trying my first project converion on a .410 since they are the cheapest. Which is easier to convert BTW, .410 or .308? I know you have to add a feed ramp thing to the .223, and the 762...I think. Do you have to do anything 'extra' or drastically different for the .410...or any of the shotguns for that matter? Never mind on the first question...I guess you just buy them if you can find them. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=4009 Edited February 19, 2005 by AK-treO8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 my .410 was my FIRST conversion... before I even KNEW I could do one... and it came out great.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Cool. I have a buddy that has a 12 but he's terrified to try the conversion on it. I'm thinking about getting him collaborate with me on a .410 conversion so we can both benefit. Nothing like a couple of computer geeks in the garage with power tools hack'en on artillery! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 I might part with my 410 converted. Tired of waiting for a bunch of 10 rnd mags. The whole idea was to take the kids out blasting clay pidgeons..but now I'm having seconds thoughts...safety and ammo prices of 410. I just ordered a Saiga 12...for ME! Call on me if you are thinking about buyng a 2nd 410. I'll post a pic after dinner. Hbg, PA What are you asking? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NedPepper 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Whatever your wallet will bear..lol. Haven't really thought on it yet. Lets see..200 sompin a Dunhams..PG..Romanian non-folder..DBLhookG2..retainer hook.. shot 5 rounds through it. 250? If you have a trigger group already or Pg we can start subtracting..S12 coming here. I'll to post better pics if you are interested in it. My camera is a freebee and I need sunlight. I put a doublehook G2 in it and allenheads where rivets were. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NedPepper 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 and.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chris410 0 Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Whatever your wallet will bear..lol. Haven't really thought on it yet. Lets see..200 sompin a Dunhams..PG..Romanian non-folder..DBLhookG2..retainer hook.. shot 5 rounds through it. 250? If you have a trigger group already or Pg we can start subtracting..S12 coming here. I'll to post better pics if you are interested in it. My camera is a freebee and I need sunlight. I put a doublehook G2 in it and allenheads where rivets were. How much without the pistol grip and stock? Email me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Thanks for the additional pics. I guess I need to get my hands on a shotgun model and pop off the dust cover. I've heard the shotguns are different internally. I was just wondering if there are more, less, different parts to contend with inside...that's all. Hmmm, .410 is looking better for a conversion project all the time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NedPepper 0 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Hmm.. how do you make safe weapon sales via mail? I need to take it to my local FFL with instructions on who and when to ship to? FFL to FFL? AK-treO8: The 410 is a straight conversion just like you do a 7.63Saiga as far as the PG,FCG, rear stocks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 PM sent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 AK-tre08 here are a couple pics i have from something else i needed to document a ways back for someone showing the internals of your run of the mill AK vs the saiga shotgun... here are the two bolts, top is standarn 7.62 AKM, bottom is saiga12. note that the recoil spring on the s12 has a piston inside of it that you cant see well in the pic. anyone care to comment on how dirty they are? dodge: these pics will give you a heart attack and have you looking over your shoulder for your drill sergeant. its ok, he doesnt know you are looking at dirty gun pics Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 here is a picture showing more differences....AKM standard is top, saiga12 is bottom.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 here is the two recoil springs, AKM top, s12 bottom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 and this last one is with the bolt carrier and recoil springs in place. you can see the part layout for the pistol grip config on the AKM and the regular stock on the s12 on the bottom. internals are basically the same, but moved back, and an extra lever or two is in there to compensate for the extra distance, as most of the parts common between the two guns are almost identical. note the action itself is slightly longer on the saiga12 than the AKM type. the AKM is a romanian SAR1, which is a rebuilt military issue firearm. it is NOT the same as a romaninan WASR-10. hope it helps AKtre08 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 You should do another one from that last angle without the recoil spring so you can see the difference in the trigger system. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 like this? had it already....figured the previous covered things.....this is with both hammers resting on the firing pins and in line with each other........remember, the two actions are a shade different lengths overall........ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 (edited) There ya go! Topless Kalashnikovs! And there guts are showing! EW! Damn my typing sucks! Edited February 22, 2005 by Cobra 76 two Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 yeh, thats my definition of a "clean AK", just so you know.....powder fouling has dropped significantly on the 7.62 since I put a vented ultimak rail on there in place of the stock gas tube/handguard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Cool!! Thanks for the pics guys. That settles it, I'll be buying one as soon as possible. I (think) CDNN still has'em for $149+shipping and TX sales tax (SUCKS!!). But, I have a guy local to me that has'em for $210 or so out the door. BTW, I accidentally posted this pic on the 762x39 thread. Is it possible to get a .410 looking kinda close to this, with the AK frontsite and all? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 the 410 is a lot closer in the blowup diagram to the 308, actually. the 12 and 20's are similar to each other, and the 7.62 and 223 are almost identical as well. so basically, with work, you could get a 410 looking like that yeh...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 (edited) That's my goal as soon as I lick the handguard retainer problem. Mine's probly gonna be wood though! Should be able to get a front sight with bayo lug and threaded for attachments. The O.D. of the 410 barrel is exactly the same as my Chinese AK. Edited February 22, 2005 by Cobra 76 two Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-treO8 0 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 (edited) All this talk is making me want to go Dremel something! I'm thinking some of my bonus next month will have to go to the purchase and conversion of a .410. Oh Yeah, my oldest daughter wanted a Barbie Babe Beach mansion and new bike for her birthday...TOO BAD...Daddy want's a new toy too!!! It makes sense that the .410 and .308 are similar, the rounds aren't too far apart in size and shape. Edited February 22, 2005 by AK-treO8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 You will like the 410. It's very impressive with slugs and hardly any recoil. Invest in a recoil buffer and it will have even less and save on wear and tear. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 (edited) have you thought about splitting the handguard retainer, then using a small screw to put it back together.... who did that.... look for "rpk" saiga posts... he did that.....HUGEGATOR... HE did it... ask him!!!! he KNOWS! Edited February 22, 2005 by IndyArms Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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