expeditionx 1 Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I contacted TC arms about what they recommend as far as interchangability between original pistols and rifles ,and vice versa. They basically said swap back and forth all you want it's legal for either pistols or rifles to go in either direction. First the email: "Gail Lynch" <GLynch@tcarms.com> Send me you mailing address and I will send you some paperwork on this matter. It is not illegal to go back and forth Gail Thompson/Center Arms Then I called and spoke to Customer Service and was told it's ok to make one of their rifles into a pistol. She said she can send me paperwork on the matter. Complete BS according to our most beloved government agency that proclaims our rights http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239 Am I missing something here? Who should I believe TC Arms or the 3AM door breachers? Rhetorical question obviously no need to answer. The real question is how did this mess happen? TC Arms is opening Pandoras Box with their policy. I have met too many people at the range that swap and don't care if they happen to violate the NFA law. The TC court case that is often cited did not authorize more than marketing a box of parts that could be first assembled into either a pistol or rifle. That is what many are using to justify what TC is claiming. Its not like I care what others are doing, but what TC is irresponsible about in their communication to fellow gun owners. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 It was my understanding that the TC court case did just that. Granted an exception from the whole rifle-to-pistol-to-rifle thing for the TC contender that is. They're exempt from constructive intent also IIRC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Granted an exception from the whole rifle-to-pistol-to-rifle thing for the TC contender that is. Why is the ATF stating that it's not ok to swap back and forth from Rifle to pistol in the letter on the link I provided? The letter on that link is dated far after the TC supreme court case. Can anyone possibly point out the exact wording from the case that actually says its now ok to make a TC rifle into a pistol? If this is true, it can be argued that we have equal protection under the constitution to do the same to non-TC rifles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 TC is owned by S&W now. I wonder if that has anything to do with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 From the letter: Oct 30, 2003 converting a new contender or encore rifle to a pistol ... results in making an NFA firearm. Someone hasn't bothered to let the tech branch in on the case outcome. If someone gets caught, doing this I don't think TC is going to pay their legal fees. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 You had better start out with a pistol if you want to go back and forth or you could get in trouble.The same ATF decision that allows a long barrel and stock to turn a TC pistol into a carbine also states that once a rifle always a rifle and it becomes an SBR once you stick a short barrel on it even if there is not buttstock. By the way you can weld an extension and install a buttstock on an AK pistol but if you cut the barrel down on an AK rifle you will be the guest of s Federal Concentration Camp for a decade. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) .The same ATF decision that allows a long barrel and stock to turn a TC pistol into a carbine also states that once a rifle always a rifle I agree 100 percent with what your saying I can't understand how TC does not have this concept in their legal policy. I have seen many bardwell subguns letters and other letters that state once a rifle always a rifle no exceptions generally. Edited April 20, 2009 by expeditionx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zakmatthews 14 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 <<< Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 <<< Life goes on Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILLIEVEE 15 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 You had better start out with a pistol if you want to go back and forth or you could get in trouble.The same ATF decision that allows a long barrel and stock to turn a TC pistol into a carbine also states that once a rifle always a rifle and it becomes an SBR once you stick a short barrel on it even if there is not buttstock. By the way you can weld an extension and install a buttstock on an AK pistol but if you cut the barrel down on an AK rifle you will be the guest of s Federal Concentration Camp for a decade. Sopmed, Would this be true of a AR Pistol by the addition of a stock, or would this still have to go the SBR route? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrentfrow 0 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) Edited April 20, 2009 by jammer72 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) Pretty good read on the TC ruling http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html I read the actual court published transcript on another website and no where does it define what you can and can't do. The case was about whether TC can distribute a frame, pistol grip, short barrel, shoulder stock, and long barrel in the same box. The ATF has held the opinion that going from a pistol to a rifle is ok, but reversing that is illegal according to all the online ATF letter sources I have seen. Many are well familiar with the stockless receiver is ok for an AOW same is true for a pistol build. paragraph 2 line 1 "A rifle receiver that has never been stocked as a rifle may be utilized in the manufacture of a pistol." Clearly a once stocked receiver cannot be made into pistol without the proper legal steps such as a tax stamp. Turning a stock saiga into a pistol falls under the same ruling. Somehow, if I stamp TC arms on my Saiga I can magically do this pistol conversion with no worries. http://www.gunco.net/forums/f3/ak-pistol-q...150/index2.html Edited April 20, 2009 by expeditionx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BronCobraJet 80 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I looked into making an AR pistol a couple of years ago. Duncan Long has several books out on the subject, most notably "Making Your AR-15 Into A Legal Pistol". As the ATF letter above states, you MUST have a receiver that has never been built as a pistol, and have documentation from the manufacturer stating that. Among other things, he reccomended making several copies of the letter from the manufacturer and invoice to carry with you and in the pistol grip of the magazine to "save you a trip to jail, and avoid hard feelings between you and the law". Only buy all new parts, including magazines and don't use any of them in your rifle, so you don't violate using rifle parts in your pistol, do not mount any type of shoulder stock on your pistol. There is a grey area concerning if you intend to manufacture Title 1 firearms for sale or distributions, you may have to have a manufacturers license. Is it just assembling, or manufacturing? Owning a rifle upon which you can mount the upper receiver on your pistol is legal, but you must never do so. If someone wanted to cause you trouble, they could say you had a buttstock on your pistol and it would be your word against his. IMHO with the different types of pistols on the market that accept the 5.56 or .223 round, it would be far simpler and less hassle to just buy one of them. You avoid a lot of headaches. I'm planning on buying a Kel-Tec PLR-16 as soon as my local dealer can get one. I wish I would have bought them when they first came out. It would have been like a 2 for 1 sale! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Folkien 0 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 With AR's, this is a moot point, since getting a separate receiver is going to cost about as much as getting an SBR stamp for one of your rifle receivers. But I do wonder about AK variants sometimes... good input so far! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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