Vz 58 /Cz 58 Who has one? ANy in Kalifornia?

[nalioth 405]

Double post

 

Edited May 11, 2009 by nalioth

[nalioth 405]

...VZ-58...it's just a better thought out gun, IMHO.

 

Blasphemy!!

 

 

 

Its a better thought out gun if you like a poor mag catch, a bendable gas piston, and a lot more recoil than the ak platform.... oh wait... those are not desirable features....

Was tihs meant as a parody?

 

 

The only bent Vz58 gas piston I've heard of was from an aftermarket maker who acknowledged he didn't heat treat properly.

 

"More recoil" ? I suggest you look at the vids of the full auto Vz58s.

 

Not sure what you define as "poor" as far as the Vz58 mag catch. The fact that it's 'poor' at catching on things is a plus.

 

I don't really like the way the gas piston installs, not because it's prone to bending, but because it's not nearly as secure as threading it to the bolt carrier, then pinning in place, the way the AK's is installed. I personally don't see any real advantage to being able to easily seperate the piston itself from the rest of the weapon, (not necessary for cleaning or really anything else). If I'm not mistaken, the VZ-58's piston is secured with a spring? That's a bit of a weak point in my fairly uninformed opinion.

 

From everything I've read the VZ-58 has the same or less recoil than an AK, (not that the AK has significant recoil), so that's a non-factor.

 

I do prefer the AK's mag release lever.. the VZ-58's design goes too far and potentially makes it difficult to release the mag as quickly as you can with the AK's release lever.

 

As I previously mentioned, the most disadvantageous difference between the AK and VZ-58 designs that I can see is the shorter distance between the irons on the VZ-58, which potentially negatively affects accuracy.

 

Anyway, I still think of the two weapons as very comparable, just different.. neither design seems to be clearly "better" than the other.. though the available parts, mags, etc are clearly much more numerous for the AK, which can be seen as an advantage.

 

I'd love to have the chance to really heat up a VZ-58 at the range.. then I'd have a much more concrete opinion on how it compares to the AK.

The Vzt8 gas piston is held in place by the gas block and rear sight block. The spring just keeps the piston head up near the gas port. If the spring gets lost, the bolt carrier will push the piston back in place, so losing the spring does nothing that affects the operation.

 

At combat distances, your 1" of sight radius means bupkus. Even with the slight difference, you'll never be able to tell the difference in them.

 

 

 

You are basing your 'theories' off of data you've read, not reality. Take my word for it, it's a better rifle than the AK.

 

The people of the Czech region have been building better weapons for millenia.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Perhaps that loss of that spring does little to affect weapon performance or perhaps it could negatively affect the rifle's operation.. I don't know. I've read both claims. Regardless, I don't see the VZ-58's gas piston design as an advantage at all.. which some claim it to be.

 

As I've said many times myself, yes my theories are based off of no practical knowledge of the weapon.. i.e. handling and firing the rifle. They are based off of all the data and videos on the VZ-58 that I have been able to find.

 

I will concede that the VZ-58 was probably better than the AK-47 model that was being fielded in the 50's. Better than our modern AKM's? I'm not so sure.

Edited May 11, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[imarangemaster 315]

Wow, I posted on 4 other AK forums and ALL answers were the same: Folks who have both AK and VZ 58 prefer the VZ! Ugh I have to find a way to get that VZ too. AN obsession without funds in NO fun!

[nalioth 405]

And when that spring wears out from heating up... weapon failure..?

 

As I've said many times myself, yes my theories are based off of no practical knowledge of the weapon.. i.e. handling and firing the rifle. They are based off of all the data and videos on the VZ-58 that I have been able to find.

 

I will concede that the VZ-58 was probably better than the AK-47 model that was being fielded in the 50's. Better than our modern AKM's? I'm not so sure.

The spring doesn't get hot. It's nowhere near a heat source.

 

Did you look at the pictures?

 

"Our modern AKM's?" Where have you been? The AKM has not been issued since 1974.

 

And, no I don't agree, even with "our modern AK-103s" brought into the debate. Aside from a stock change, a muzzle brake and plastic instead of wood, NOTHING has changed in the Kalashnikov design.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

And when that spring wears out from heating up... weapon failure..?

 

As I've said many times myself, yes my theories are based off of no practical knowledge of the weapon.. i.e. handling and firing the rifle. They are based off of all the data and videos on the VZ-58 that I have been able to find.

 

I will concede that the VZ-58 was probably better than the AK-47 model that was being fielded in the 50's. Better than our modern AKM's? I'm not so sure.

The spring doesn't get hot. It's nowhere near a heat source.

 

Did you look at the pictures?

 

"Our modern AKM's?" Where have you been? The AKM has not been issued since 1974.

 

And, no I don't agree, even with "our modern AK-103s" brought into the debate. Aside from a stock change, a muzzle brake and plastic instead of wood, NOTHING has changed in the Kalashnikov design.

 

Yeah yeah I meant AK-103's, not AKM's.

 

Nothing's changed in the Kalashnikov design, eh? Perhaps not on the basic level, but you don't think that perhaps AK-103's are better assembled and more accurate than commie AK's of decades past?

 

I'm still unconvinced that the VZ-58 is really "better", not that that's your fault.. I've never fired the VZ-58. Also, remember that at least in my case, I consider a milled receiver to be a disadvantage, as a stamped receiver can be pretty easily converted to full-auto function, should the need ever arise. Not everyone considers that, but I most definitely do.

 

Also, the fact remains that the AK is the 7.62x39mm carbine design that was produced in the hundreds of millions and is now all over the globe. Relatively few people even know wtf a VZ-58 is. As a result, for the AK, mags, parts, accessories are legion and relatively inexpensive, unlike the VZ-58.

 

Even if I accept your premise, nalioth.. exactly how much "better" is the VZ-58 in your opinion? From what I can see, it's a little lighter.. so what? Are you saying it's more accurate or more dependable than the AK-103 design?

Edited May 12, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[nalioth 405]

Even if I accept your premise, nalioth.. exactly how much "better" is the VZ-58 in your opinion? From what I can see, it's a little lighter.. so what? Are you saying it's more accurate or more dependable than the AK-103 design?

More accurate? Yes.

 

It is at least as dependable as the Kalashnikov.

 

The only thing the Kalashnikov has over the Vz58 is the numbers produced.

[bigsal 757]

...VZ-58...it's just a better thought out gun, IMHO.

 

Blasphemy!!

 

 

 

Its a better thought out gun if you like a poor mag catch, a bendable gas piston, and a lot more recoil than the ak platform.... oh wait... those are not desirable features....

Was tihs meant as a parody?

 

 

The only bent Vz58 gas piston I've heard of was from an aftermarket maker who acknowledged he didn't heat treat properly.

 

"More recoil" ? I suggest you look at the vids of the full auto Vz58s.

 

Not sure what you define as "poor" as far as the Vz58 mag catch. The fact that it's 'poor' at catching on things is a plus.

 

The rifle has a ton of issues. I mean do a google search. Granted some issues are brought on by the lack of quality 922 compliant parts available in the US, but there are plenty of others. The recoil on an akm is noticeably less, I can't believe your arguing that one...

Plus the gun looks f*cking retarded, Id be embarrassed to shoot one.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Even if I accept your premise, nalioth.. exactly how much "better" is the VZ-58 in your opinion? From what I can see, it's a little lighter.. so what? Are you saying it's more accurate or more dependable than the AK-103 design?

More accurate? Yes.

Well I'd have to challenge that unqualified statement. AK-103 accuracy can vary quite a bit from rifle to rifle, mostly depending on the manufacturer. I'm sure it's more accurate than the majority of Romanian, Yugo, Chinese AK's.. but can it beat a Bulgarian AK or a newly produced Izhmash model, (as most all the members of this forum have)? I'd have to say that that's far from definite. Let's also not forget that the VZ-58's sight radius is shorter, which potentially can negatively affect the operator's accuracy. Even though you casually dismiss it, it is a factor.

 

It is at least as dependable as the Kalashnikov.

Theoretically, perhaps. It hasn't been tested nearly as extensively or as strenuously as the AK has, so I'd say that's not yet proven.

 

The only thing the Kalashnikov has over the Vz58 is the numbers produced.

Which is a significant advantage.

Edited May 12, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[nalioth 405]

It is at least as dependable as the Kalashnikov.

Theoretically, perhaps. It hasn't been tested nearly as extensively or as strenuously as the AK has, so I'd say that's not yet proven.

You keep ignoring facts.

 

The Vz58 has been in combat use in the Vietnam war and in the middle east. The Czechs have been using it continuously since 1959. If it were not up to the task, don't you think they'd have moved on to something else?

The only thing the Kalashnikov has over the Vz58 is the numbers produced.

Which is a significant advantage.

The ability to manufacture something does not equote into design knowledge. Edited May 12, 2009 by nalioth

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

^ So, nailoth, are you going to concede that there is no reason to believe that the VZ-58 is, in general, "more accurate" than the AK? If not, it'd be nice if you could post some kind of proof that that's the case.

 

As for the other points. I am not "ignoring facts", the facts are that although the VZ-58 was used in SE Asia.. the number of them that were used are but a tiny fraction of the number of AK's that saw combat there.. and that most certainly does make a difference. Far far more AK's have been put to the ultimate reliability test/s, and the design has most definitely proven itself. Sure, the VZ-58 was also technically in theater.. a handful of em. Theoretically the VZ-58's reliability is similar to that of the AK, but it hasn't actually been tested on a massive scale, as the AK has. I don't see how you can argue with that.

 

As for the Czechs using them since 1959.. so? If it was truly superior to Kalashnikov's design the Russians could have adopted it at any time. They haven't.

 

The advantage of having so many, many, many more AK's produced than VZ-58's is quite simple. Quantity, availability, and affordability of replacement parts, aftermarket accessories, magazines, etc. I've made this point a few times now and it's just as valid now as it was much earlier in the thread.

[nalioth 405]

^ So, nailoth, are you going to concede that there is no reason to believe that the VZ-58 is, in general, "more accurate" than the AK? If not, it'd be nice if you could post some kind of proof that that's the case.

 

As for the other points. I am not "ignoring facts", the facts are that although the VZ-58 was used in SE Asia.. the number of them that were used are but a tiny fraction of the number of AK's that saw combat there.. and that most certainly does make a difference. Far far more AK's have been put to the ultimate reliability test/s, and the design has most definitely proven itself. Sure, the VZ-58 was also technically in theater.. a handful of em. Theoretically the VZ-58's reliability is similar to that of the AK, but it hasn't actually been tested on a massive scale, as the AK has. I don't see how you can argue with that.

 

As for the Czechs using them since 1959.. so? If it was truly superior to Kalashnikov's design the Russians could have adopted it at any time. They haven't.

 

The advantage of having so many, many, many more AK's produced than VZ-58's is quite simple. Quantity, availability, and affordability of replacement parts, aftermarket accessories, magazines, etc. I've made this point a few times now and it's just as valid now as it was much earlier in the thread.

To each their own.

 

I suggest you study your social studies and learn how the Czechs and Russians get on. The Russians would never adopt anything from the Czechs, for many reasons.

 

 

It doesn't take an equal amount of turds shat from 2 different animals for folks to know that some turds are smellier than others, and I'm still not understanding why you keep bringing it up.

 

 

 

I suggest you find one and shoot it.

[dph arms 88]

Not looking to get into the debate but I can say that we are in the beginning stages of making the 922 parts availablilty problem go away.......trigger parts, muzzle attachments and some rail options coming soon. Who knows,,,,,,,maybe a few milled receivers as well.

 

scott

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

^ So, nailoth, are you going to concede that there is no reason to believe that the VZ-58 is, in general, "more accurate" than the AK? If not, it'd be nice if you could post some kind of proof that that's the case.

 

As for the other points. I am not "ignoring facts", the facts are that although the VZ-58 was used in SE Asia.. the number of them that were used are but a tiny fraction of the number of AK's that saw combat there.. and that most certainly does make a difference. Far far more AK's have been put to the ultimate reliability test/s, and the design has most definitely proven itself. Sure, the VZ-58 was also technically in theater.. a handful of em. Theoretically the VZ-58's reliability is similar to that of the AK, but it hasn't actually been tested on a massive scale, as the AK has. I don't see how you can argue with that.

 

As for the Czechs using them since 1959.. so? If it was truly superior to Kalashnikov's design the Russians could have adopted it at any time. They haven't.

 

The advantage of having so many, many, many more AK's produced than VZ-58's is quite simple. Quantity, availability, and affordability of replacement parts, aftermarket accessories, magazines, etc. I've made this point a few times now and it's just as valid now as it was much earlier in the thread.

To each their own.

 

I suggest you study your social studies and learn how the Czechs and Russians get on. The Russians would never adopt anything from the Czechs, for many reasons.

 

 

It doesn't take an equal amount of turds shat from 2 different animals for folks to know that some turds are smellier than others, and I'm still not understanding why you keep bringing it up.

 

 

 

I suggest you find one and shoot it.

 

If the VZ-58's design was significantly superior to that of the AK, the Russians could have easily taken it and claimed that some Russian "improved upon the flaws that the Czech design suffered from". It seems to me that the VZ-58's design is not notably "superior" to that of the AK, else something along those lines would have occurred.

 

I'd love to find one and shoot it. That's on me, I won't argue otherwise. However, you have yet to present a single reason why you consider the VZ-58 design to be superior to that of the AK. I've already conceded that it is quite comparable and intriguing, but superior? I just don't see it.

 

Keep in mind that my AK is a SGL20 assembled by the Legion custom rifle shop at Izhmash, then imported and marketed by Arsenal. Do you really think that the average VZ-58 is more accurate? I'd love to put that shit to the test.

 

On a final sidenote, your "turd" analogy is incredibly clumsy and tbh fairly disgusting. Try again.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Not looking to get into the debate but I can say that we are in the beginning stages of making the 922 parts availablilty problem go away.......trigger parts, muzzle attachments and some rail options coming soon. Who knows,,,,,,,maybe a few milled receivers as well.

 

scott

 

You're talking about the VZ-58 here, Scott?

[kresk 10,063]

Not looking to get into the debate but I can say that we are in the beginning stages of making the 922 parts availablilty problem go away.......trigger parts, muzzle attachments and some rail options coming soon. Who knows,,,,,,,maybe a few milled receivers as well.

 

scott

Czechpoint USA currently offers some 922 compliance parts for the FCG and magazine. Would be great to also have some muzzle devices and rails too!

[dph arms 88]

VZ is what I'm talking about

 

Scott

[U.S. Pratorean 1,234]

Not looking to get into the debate but I can say that we are in the beginning stages of making the 922 parts availablilty problem go away.......trigger parts, muzzle attachments and some rail options coming soon. Who knows,,,,,,,maybe a few milled receivers as well.

 

scott

Czechpoint USA currently offers some 922 compliance parts for the FCG and magazine. Would be great to also have some muzzle devices and rails too!

The Israeli's used the '58 for many years due to its extreme reliability in the desert. FAB/Mako, an Israeli operation, makes modern accessories for the gun. Ohio rapid fire and Czechpoint all make 922r parts. The gun can be made with US made parts including everything except the barrel and mag body. The gun is as reliable as an AK. The craftsmanship however far exceeds that of the average AK and since it is made with tighter tolerances and a machined receiver ( less torque) it is more accurate, not alot but more so. The machined receiver makes it more robust than a stamped gun yet the weight is less than a milled AK. The mags are not as strong as an AK's and the the only thing a VZ58 has in common with an AK is the cartridge. Its operating function is as the piston driven AR15's or the SKS so it is like comparing the AK to the STG44 which is commnly done since they look vaguely similiar (Kalashnikov has been accused of copying it) when the STG44 is more similiar to the HK series of weapons and led to the development of the Cetme rifle.

Edited May 12, 2009 by U.S Praetorian

[Shellshock1918 1]

The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water.

I've seen many people say this but I think this is the most overstated point about the Vz58.

 

The safety is still terrible, in some ways more awkward. Its on the wrong side if you ask me. The cocking handle is slightly better, but you still have to cross over your line of sight in order to re-charge the weapon.

 

The magazine release also isn't any better, and I personally think it is worse.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Shellshock1918

[nalioth 405]

The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water.

I've seen many people say this but I think this is the most overstated point about the Vz58.

 

The safety is still terrible, in some ways more awkward. Its on the wrong side if you ask me. The cocking handle is slightly better, but you still have to cross over your line of sight in order to re-charge the weapon.

 

The magazine release also isn't any better, and I personally think it is worse.

 

Neither of them are AR15s.

[acercanto 6]

Okay, to address the point of the VZ not being combat proven, at some point, the sample size becomes moot. Just because there's billions of AKs out there and they all go bang doesn't mean that the VZ is less reliable because there are fewer of them represented. They may all still go bang reliably. I'd go out on a limb and say that once you get a few hundred thousand rifles out in the field for a few years, and they perform well, you can pretty much count on it. Anything above and beyond that is just re-enforcement.

 

Ergonomics: I'm pretty much convinced the VZ was made for lefties. The safety is right there under my thumb, the charging handle is on the right, the mag release is operable by my trigger finger..

 

And to whomever mentioned the possibility to return the gun to it's proper rate of fire, the VZ would be fairly elementary. One hole, and replace a spring and 2 parts.

 

Lovin' my VZ-58,

Acer

[bigsal 757]

The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water.

I've seen many people say this but I think this is the most overstated point about the Vz58.

 

The safety is still terrible, in some ways more awkward. Its on the wrong side if you ask me. The cocking handle is slightly better, but you still have to cross over your line of sight in order to re-charge the weapon.

 

The magazine release also isn't any better, and I personally think it is worse.

 

 

Bingo.

[mstranglr 9]

Anyone out there have these? I am incredibly intrigued by them. I have read all the web stuff on it, but wondering if anyone on the board has one. How do you like it compared to an AK? I have an opportunity to pick one up VERY reasonable with mags and goodies. I love my Saiga 7.62x39, but this VZ58 has a strange allure.

 

Also, any Kalifornia shooters have these? DO the have MMGs for them? I live in Illinois, but there is a possibility that I may be living 1/2 and 1/2 in four years (a grandkids thing). My saiga I can MMG it. I was wondering about a VZ58. Hey Desert Dog, do you know of any in Kalifornia?

 

Yep, we got lots of nice VZ-58s in the PRK. I would go the Monsterman grip route. The MM grip screw fits the VZ-58 grip nut perfectly. You will have to use the MM AK adapter and do a little trimming, but it is a 1/2 hour job max.

 

The VZ-58s are nice, except for some of the Century builds I have seen.

 

Good ones are just as reliable as AKs, but never got as popular because they don't use AK parts - and you can't make a VZ-58 into a TAPCO M-4 Plastic-Fantastic Bubba gun. The only thing I don't like about the VZ is the lack of mag interchangeability with the AK system - this is a major flaw in the design IMO. The cool thing about VZ-58s is that you can top load the mag for shits and giggles.

 

My advise; BUY IT NOW!!!!!!

[nalioth 405]

Yep, we got lots of nice VZ-58s in the PRK. I would go the Monsterman grip route. The MM grip screw fits the VZ-58 grip nut perfectly. You will have to use the MM AK adapter and do a little trimming, but it is a 1/2 hour job max.

 

The VZ-58s are nice, except for some of the Century builds I have seen.

Century doesn't build them, just imports them.

The only thing I don't like about the VZ is the lack of mag interchangeability with the AK system - this is a major flaw in the design IMO.

Is that the same flaw that keeps FAL mags from working in a G3? The same flaw that keeps an M14 mag from fitting in an AR-10? COME ON! THEY"RE ALL THE SAME CALIBER!!! WHY AREN"T THE MAGS INTERCHANGEABLE? Edited May 13, 2009 by nalioth

[dancapostagno 0]

yea, that's pretty much how I see it. The VZ58 is a very nice and very tempting weapon. The so-called "downsides" don't put me off at all. I think desert dog hit the nail on the head: one of the primary reasons for AK popularity (and AR popularity to a certain degree) is the level of customization and parts available. Although for what it's worth, you could go tapco-tastic on a VZ58 if you wanted to, the parts are available, but honestly- I wouldn't.

[kresk 10,063]

The only thing I don't like about the VZ is the lack of mag interchangeability with the AK system - this is a major flaw in the design IMO.

Is that the same flaw that keeps FAL mags from working in a G3? The same flaw that keeps an M14 mag from fitting in an AR-10? COME ON! THEY"RE ALL THE SAME CALIBER!!! WHY AREN"T THE MAGS INTERCHANGEABLE?

Agree. No flaw there. The Czechs tend to be independent in their designs, and they are usually extremely well thought out and reliable.

[Shellshock1918 1]

The Vz58's ergonomics blow the Kalashnikov out of the water.

I've seen many people say this but I think this is the most overstated point about the Vz58.

 

The safety is still terrible, in some ways more awkward. Its on the wrong side if you ask me. The cocking handle is slightly better, but you still have to cross over your line of sight in order to re-charge the weapon.

 

The magazine release also isn't any better, and I personally think it is worse.

 

Neither of them are AR15s.

ORLY? I didn't notice that.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Shellshock1918

[dancapostagno 0]

The only thing I don't like about the VZ is the lack of mag interchangeability with the AK system - this is a major flaw in the design IMO.

Is that the same flaw that keeps FAL mags from working in a G3? The same flaw that keeps an M14 mag from fitting in an AR-10? COME ON! THEY"RE ALL THE SAME CALIBER!!! WHY AREN"T THE MAGS INTERCHANGEABLE?

Agree. No flaw there. The Czechs tend to be independent in their designs, and they are usually extremely well thought out and reliable.

 

exactly. for example: "why aren't the mags interchangeable with the AK?! BOO." <- it's because those mags have a built in LRBHO release built into the mag. I'd say that's a fair tradeoff.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

The only thing I don't like about the VZ is the lack of mag interchangeability with the AK system - this is a major flaw in the design IMO.

Is that the same flaw that keeps FAL mags from working in a G3? The same flaw that keeps an M14 mag from fitting in an AR-10? COME ON! THEY"RE ALL THE SAME CALIBER!!! WHY AREN"T THE MAGS INTERCHANGEABLE?

Agree. No flaw there. The Czechs tend to be independent in their designs, and they are usually extremely well thought out and reliable.

 

exactly. for example: "why aren't the mags interchangeable with the AK?! BOO." <- it's because those mags have a built in LRBHO release built into the mag. I'd say that's a fair tradeoff.

 

If you want a LRBHO in an AK mag, buy Yugoslavian. Yugo AK mags are usually cheaper than VZ-58 mags, and they are tougher as well.

Edited May 13, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[nalioth 405]

If you want those in an AK mag, buy Yugoslavian. That feature really has nothing to do with the rifles themselves.

WHATCHOOTALKINGABOUTWILLIS?!?!?

 

 

Vz58 magazine with BHO actuator, shown with the rifle's integral bolt hold open.