Saiga .308 or M1A?

[Arik 565]

My .0000001 cents worth.

I'm with Mav.

I couldnt care less if its sub MOA at 100yrds or 3 inches appart. For me, it has to hit center mass (consistantly stay in the same area) out to 400-500yrds (with or without optics). If used in battle, I dont think anyone on the recieving end will care how close the 2 shots were that hit them. Anyone hit with a .308 will not be a happy camper. Anything beyond 500yrds than I'll just get a Remington, Savage or any other bolt gun.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Been looking for a Savage 308 for a while and haven't found what I want at a good price yet. Maybe Im being too cheap, too picky, or both. Im sure when I do find one it will become my favorite toy as there's so much you can do to and learn from them. Ive seen gifted re-loaders get some remarkable results out of from rifles not known for accuracy so I really want to get a hold a Savage which has a good rep to start with for a klutz like me.

 

As far as no 1MOA Saigas existing Im not ever going to go that far seeing what some guys are able to pull off loading their own ammo. I have noticed some rifles/loads being very accurate at one range and much less so at another. I just wish I knew enough to say how that happens exactly, more so how to use it.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

My Saiga .308 IS sub MOA, with several different loads.

 

Pizza Hut box at 100 yards, 5 shots with Remington 150 gr SP Core LOKT bullets.

 

 

Benchmark group, 100 yards:

 

 

maybe a little closer......

 

 

This is the Pizza Hut box target, just a little bit closer view of the 5 rounds at 100 yards.

 

More handload targets, this time using Hodgdon Varget:

 

 

I've got more sitting behind me on the desk that I haven't even taken a picture of.....yet. Don't tell me that the Saiga is not a sub MOA rifle, I'm not going to believe you. It is what it is, and once the right pressure (load) and bullet are to "it's" liking it will perform. I don't know how it would do with any Golden Bear, or other com-bloc ammo in steel case as I have never bought any.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

The OAL on the next to last target supposed to be 2.74?

I assume you crimp for the auto loader correct?

Sand bag or vice when shooting?

You arent the only one to have these results on the S308 just havent gotten there myself yet and dont expect commercial ammo to do it.

Any thing else you would like to let us in on is always appreciated.

[Azrial 1,091]

Like I have said, I only see Sub-MOA Saigas on the Internet...

[mav 459]

Like I have said, I only see Sub-MOA Saigas on the Internet...

 

 

Doesn't support your argument so he must be lying huh?

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Yes, the OAL is supposed to be 2.740... on that particular load. I use Lee Factory Crimp die for the finish of the reloading. It is a strange affair that the bullet actually comes up and out of the die and as you push down the sides squeeze in and form a uniform crimp. Getting consistent crimp is important as is the the importance that each bullet's brass start out at the same length. I do use magnum primers, even on the extruded powders. You normally use magnum powder for ball (spherical) powder as it is harder to ignite. I do have some Remington 9 1/2 primers (standard LR primers) I'll have to try sometime. My thought was to start at a fairly low powder charge and work up a bit, checking both the targets and the primers. Funny thing is it seems that the heavier the charge the more consistent the groups. What quantifies a heavy charge? Most of the time I notice that the primers on the factory stuff, like the Remington I shot above, flatten out the primers pretty substantial. Not overly excessive, but you know that it has a pretty stiff pressure load in there with the signs on the primers.

 

I shoot using a box. No vice, and no sand bags. I make a shooting "box" from a regular cardboard box, our champagne wine box from work, and shoot from it. I cut a U notch in the front and a bigger U on the rear where the rifle rests, around the magazine. I cut out the left side down a bit so that I can hold the rifle fore grip with my left hand. It gives steady holds that way, as I use a horse blanket underneath to keep everything on the same level. Even at that I must really concentrate on the squeeze of the trigger. Sometimes I "know" I have pulled a shot, and even though I have a wider group, say 1.50 to 1.8" I have an idea that it was not the load, it was me. In that case I will re-load several more rounds with the same bullet, weight, powder, weight, etc just to try a few more times to see if there was an inconsistency in me, or if it truly was the actual load.

 

All rifle barrels "whip" up and down, and form a circular arch at the muzzle at the time of firing. The whole trick is to simply get the bullet to leave the muzzle at the same point in the arc and angle every time. I really don't care if it whips up and left or right and down, or simply right from the target. It's the group I'm interested in, and then if it's a good group I can adjust the scope to the point where the bullets are actually hitting down range.

 

The sights that come on the Saiga, and any AK as far as I'm concerned, suk big time. They were designed for close encounters of the worst kind. Look at the front sight to rear sight distance. TOO close!!! Get that sight way back there at the end of the dust cover and you increase your accuracy substantially. The AK was designed to shooting though car doors and through walls to hit the enemy. It was designed for 100 yards OR LESS with those kind of sights. It would always fire. It would be good enough in the masses hands to effectively kill the enemy, most of the time, US. This is the 7.62 x 39 Soviet I'm referring to. Even in my Lyman 49th reloading handbook, they find the 7.62 x 39 Soviet just not an accurate round. The .308 is a special critter though. It has an interesting bullet design that gives it some merit in accuracy in rifles. Bullet calibers DO make a difference, check out the 6.8mm SPC or especially the newer 6.5 Grendel sometime. On March 6, 2006, Arne Brennan achieved a witnessed 1.198 inches (30.4 mm) group at 660 yards (600 m). NOW that's a long way out and a pretty tight group for over 600 yards! Bullets do count, and the .308 Winchester has potential, even out of a Saiga, Kalashnikov action, to achieve decent groups at 100 yards.

 

Some other targets that I took pictures of tonight. Now, if you don't believe me, that's ok. My wife and daughter witness my target shooting and I'm not in the business of BS anybody, just shooting to put the rounds in a small group. These later ones are not the greatest, but they are not too bad either.

 

 

 

 

That center dot is 1/2" across. Each square is 1", so it's very easy to see the correlation of shots and how far apart they are. Given that even though I did not hit the center dot (1/2") on these targets, had I been aiming for your heart, you would still be plenty dead at 100 yards, even with this near miss. .308 just doesn't give up much chance, especially with spire point bullets as opposed to FJM.

 

I've been shooting since I was around 8, back in 1961. I've shot so many rifle bullets I lost track a long time ago. Somewhere in the tens of thousands, or more. Probably that many,if not more with a pistol. It is not that hard for me to shoot groups like this if the ammunition is decent. Of a lot of rifles I've owned, the gas operated ones are probably the hardest to fine tune. You have to deal with escaping gas that works the action, and take that variable into the mix.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Thanks a ton for your time and experience. Saving this for future reference when money allows me to turn my attention back to the 308 which is on the back burner for a while. Most commercial ammo is just borderline junk after firing reloads and I just cannot spend a buck a round to get better so reloading is the only option. You arent the first to advise the use of magnum primers I see no down side to them except a bit higher cost so will pick a couple k of them in a few months.

 

I agree 100% on the sights. The first thing I do with any AK is replace those with a good peep sight even if I lose the range adjustment. Im finding the x39 is accurate at some ranges not so much at others. Mine is very accurate at 50-75 yards and the groups begin to really open up above that have no idea why. I shoot from a standing position mostly and sometimes a sand bag but think Im going to give your method a real hard look to take some of the variance out of evaluations.

 

Thanks again for the info and good shooting!

Edited November 7, 2009 by Rhodes1968

[Twinsen 86]

Like I have said, I only see Sub-MOA Saigas on the Internet...

 

 

Doesn't support your argument so he must be lying huh?

 

He meant he's seen less than 10 examples out of thousands online, and never seen proof firsthand. +1 on Az again.

[Azrial 1,091]

Like I have said, I only see Sub-MOA Saigas on the Internet...

Doesn't support your argument so he must be lying huh?

He meant he's seen less than 10 examples out of thousands online, and never seen proof firsthand. +1 on Az again.

Thanks Twinsen! Exactly! I am not calling AKsarben a liar, If I was, I am hardly too shy to do it outright.

 

I mean if you buy this rifle expecting it to everything well, including shoot very tiny groups, you are very very likely to be very disappointed.

 

You will see a lot more reports of satisfaction on the subject of a man's rifle then disappointment, very few want to open a thread on the Internet called, "Another lousy group I shot today."

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

LOL good point, Azrial! Considering that I would assume a lot of Saiga buyers simply buy the rifle, a few boxes of $4.00/20 ammo and use those piss poor iron sights and wonder why they can't shoot 50 cent pieces out at 100 yards. Also, even though it's chrome lined, I like to think that breaking in a barrel has some quality imporovements, which most "new" users will hardly do.

 

BTW I have shot quite a few 3" groups getting things kind of dialed in as well. I don't post them.. *grin* Point being it is very capable of some lousy groups by a big margin. Boils down to better sighting and better tuned loads for this rifle.. THIS rifle, yours could be totally different.

Edited November 7, 2009 by AKsarben

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Well Ive posted one bad group but only AFTER I found the problem, slightly canted flash supp.

 

You are right but then they wont even get good results from a M1A given how badly most people shoot even supported, I've seen some real lulus.

Then again Ive seen people shoot standing better than most do prone so like the rifles each shooter is different.

Even some long time hunters could use a good marksmanship course but ego gets involved and it never happens.

 

If we only had an Appleseed for reloading....

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

The Saiga .308 is NOT what I would grab to shoot at deer sized targets out at 400+ yards. That is really asking a lot of bolt action rifles (inherently superior for accuracy) to step up and perform. For semi-automatic rifles, "put them down at great distances" the 6.5 Grendel is the caliber of choice. Starts out slower than some of the other calibers (Feet/sec), but because of the thinner sectional bullet / weight ratio, it makes up for it in spades down range. I think 6.8mm Rem. SPC in a 130 gr bullet would also do quite well in Semi-Auto as that bullet in a BT configuration has a very good BC. Alexander Arms make the AR type rifle in 6.5 Grendel that will out shoot any M1A at long distances just about any given time, but they are AR and if it were something along the lines of the piston system of the Barrett, HK or the Robinson Arms, it would get a lot of attention for distance, accuracy, and reliability.

 

I'm not shooting in National Matches, or even any competition. For me to spend the extra $$$ just to put neat little holes in paper at 100 - 300 yards with an M1A, M14 simply doesn't make good economical sense. I am NOT shooting at these distance, but I do want a rifle that is RELIABLE, which the Saiga is, that has decent accuracy to give me a nice feeling that if I had to use it at greater distances than 100 yards and up to 300 (comfortably), it could fit the task.

 

Question one needs to ask: Are you getting this rifle to shoot in matches, and you have the choice between the OP Saiga .308 and M1A?? If you shoot regular competition, you will find that money and guns know no bounds for what they will spend to eak out just a bit more accuracy, in any given rifle. Spend the money on the M1A, but don't go hog wild if all you are going to do is shoot pumpkins, gallon jugs of water and deer/elk/bear/hogs that on the average, shot at under 75 yards. If you're shooting at Mountain Sheep across some great ravine in the mountains, you have the wrong rifle, (both) for this job.

 

Re-barrel a Saiga .308 to .243 Winchester and you'd have a very fast and flat shooting rifle, great terminal ballistics, with lots of ammo, all over the place and not overly expensive, as well as tons of reloading components as well. Sorry, that would be another subject.....

Edited November 7, 2009 by AKsarben

[spitstickler 1]

I'm a reloader and looking at semi-auto 308 options right now. Are you able to re-use your brass from your Saiga?

 

I've heard the Saiga's tear them up pretty bad. I've mostly been looking at the M1a, Armalite or DPMS AR 308s, FALs, and lastly the Saiga's. I looked at an M1a today and I've got to say that it felt really good in my hands and I like the sights on it, but it seems like an a whole lot of money. I've never shot a FAL, but they seems like they would fit the bill, but they are almost as much money nowadays... for a dsa anyway and they aren't that easy to find. I like the AR type platform, and off the shelf, it sounds like they are generally the most accurate, but you just hear things about them being pickier about ammo and some people have mag problems. If I went that way I would definitely want a 7.62 chamber and not a .308. It would be a lot easier to put an optic on it too, my only concern is their long-term reliability.

 

And lastly the Saiga. I have a converted Saiga in x39 that I love, and since the ammo is fairly cheap and plentiful, I have only shot steel cased stuff through it. I've never shot it off a bench for groups at 100, but even with the cheap stuff from Academy It is accurate enough for me out to 300m from sitting, but when trying to stretch it out to 400, the groups really open up. Part of it may be my cheap 5moa optic which completely covers the target at that distance, but I think they just need a little more poo behind the bullet to get out to longer ranges... Hence the thinking about .308.

 

The one thing I can definitely say, is that my Saiga x39 runs no matter what... At various Appleseeds, I've put it through 2 full days in the blowing dirt and grit, no problem... 2 full days in a downpour, no problem... even with mud accidentally splashed in the action and dumping water out of my magazines to wash it out... not one hiccup even with 500+ rounds down the tube in a weekend. It's definitely reliable, and accurate enough. If the 308 Saiga is in the same ballpark as far as accuracy as it's little brother, it would be pretty tempting to get one of these and do a conversion. If it doesn't mangle the brass, only downside would be lack of mag options.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Here is the picture of some .223 I shot out of the Saiga I have. Never mind the end of the mouth being dinged, that comes out quickly to "round" when you reload:

 

 

The .308 / 7.62 NATO is the same. BTW both my rifles exhibit dual designations. The Saiga IS 7.62 x 51 / .308 Winchester. Use a small piece of car door guard you can get at an auto supply store and it seemed to eliminate nearly all of my brass dings of marks perpendicular to the brass.

The typical .308 rounds from my rifle after the buffer. NOTE, that very small indentation on the left ones is insignificant in reloading. It simply gets fire formed OUT again next shot. I use the brass multiple time.

 

 

 

The PTR 91F semi-auto .308, an HK clone made here in U.S. uses the same fluted chamber as the original and it does leave some odd marks on the brass. It is a delayed blow back roller design.

 

 

As you can see of the pictures on page 2, the Saiga is accurate...for me, using certain ammo, and especially certain handloads.

 

I use Sure Fire mags. I have the 25 round magazine, but they also make 20 round as well. I converted the 8 rounder (factory) to 10 round with no problems. The magazines are more pricey at around 40.00 each but the money you save from the AR platform rifle will buy a ton of magazines.

 

This shows the converted Saiga .308 with a 25 round Sure Fire magazine. 20 round is a bit shorter, obviously, but what you normally find for the other .308 semi-autos. I load mine to 23, but it will go all the way to 25 and feed.

 

 

All in all, don't worry about the brass from the Saiga, that is a very very cheap fix, and magazines are available online in several places.

[spitstickler 1]

Thanks for the very thorough reply!

 

I wasn't worried about the dents to the side of the case as much as I'd heard/read that the saigas had a chamber that put a distinct mark/bulge on brass cased ammo... something about civilian rifles in russia had to have a special chamber so they would know the round came from a civilian gun, or made then where you couldn't reload them... I don't know. Probably a bunch of hooey. I've never noticed it on my steel cased x39, but I thought that maybe it was because it was a stiffer case. Actually I've never done an inspection on the chamber to see if I can see anything. (I didn't do the conversion)

 

This is all very good info. I'll have to look up those mags. Even at the more expensive price, they are in line with what you pay for ar10 or m1a mags.... Even the once upon a time cheap FAL mags aren't cheap anymore although they are less than this.

 

How many reloads are you getting on your brass before it gives up the ghost?

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

I've got so much brass right now, I'm still working on the "once fired" LOL. I have 2 bags of 50 Winchester new brass that I haven't even started on. I catch all the brass in my little box affair that I shoot from.

 

You are right about the special marks on civilian rifles in Russia. In the 7.62 x 39 they have made a chamber-neck ream that when the bullet is fired it forms kind of a 2 step shoulder on the case. Most say it is re-loadable. It is not found on the AK-47 found in this country as kit form, but from the Saiga (new) rifles from Izhmash, in Russia. It makes the case identifiable as one that came from the Saiga AK and not the AK-47 (military) They also did a little bitch job on the .223/5.56 x 45 round as well. The bolt face has a raised area around it that indents the head of the case around the primer. Makes for a bear to reload as it pushes the brass in and, although not crimped, is "sort of" crimped and when you knock out the primer you have to spend some MORE time around the primer area so that you can get the primers to go in reliably. Personally, when I get the money I'm doing one of 2 things. Selling the Saiga .223 for probably something in the 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel line, or, having the barrel pin pushed out and have the barrel set back a bit and mill off that center raised spot to get rid of the indentations. Logic would dictate that I get rid of the Saiga .223 for a better caliber, and in a rifle that has a Piston designed action and NOT the AR per se.

 

So, no, it is not hooey. But, because the Russians make a rifle in military in both the 7.62 X 39 (AK-47) and the 5.56 X 45 NATO (AK-101) they make the distinctions on the brass. The .308 / 7.62 x 51 is one that is NOT fiddled with for marking cases. Only thing is the 3rd lug will sometimes need polished if it creases the brass too much.

[spitstickler 1]

Well, I've got a 16" s308 on order as well as enough parts to do a basic (phase 1) conversion. I can't wait to take it out and start putting it through the paces over thanksgiving.

 

Good thread, I'm glad I came across it.

[volkov 318]

sorta going back to the one gun that does it all idea.. Gonna say I doubt many people actually expect to get one gun to do everything, the point for me often is getting one that will do the most for the money.. So the .308 wins for me of the two. Lightweight, reliable, and reasonably accurate for a fair price makes me feel like it works in more conditions for less money. If I can only have one gun, I want to cover as many scenarios as I can. Just my thoughts, but I would be proud to own an M1 as well.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

M1As are fine if you dont mind paying that price, those rifles are just over priced to me. Frankly I would pick up an US made FAL if money were no object.

[dragon 0]

My S308 will shoot .75 MOA until it heats up. Then it starts stringing up, left, and right. If I need to shoot more accurately, I'll use my AR.

[Arik 565]

Will the ARs take any ammo or does it have to be some expansive $1/1 bullet?

[hlb3 2]

Will the ARs take any ammo or does it have to be some expansive $1/1 bullet?

 

A lot of it has to do with the gun, I've seen some AR's that will reliably feed steel cased ammo, but most don't like it, especially if they are setup with match grade barrels. That's why I have a Saiga for my .308 and a Mini-14 for my .223, both will eat up whatever junk you throw at them, plus I picked up both guns for quite a bit less than one pretty standard AR....

[Azrial 1,091]

It would be interested in seeing how many of these sub-1 MOA Saigas show up at the next big Saiga shoot...

 

Apparently none of you guys have been able to make one yet, same as the national high power competitions.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Azrial

[Azrial 1,091]

M1As are fine if you dont mind paying that price, those rifles are just over priced to me. Frankly I would pick up an US made FAL if money were no object.

 

My M1A is more accurate then my FALs, which are slightly less reliable then my AKs.

 

That puts the FAL in a great positon right in the middle!

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

I agree the compromises made on the FAL were well done. Most people dont realize to increase accuracy you must decrease reliability in some way, its just the way of the beast.

 

I just dont have $2k to spend on a rifle.