Stuck Puck??

[TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121]

Yesterday with my new gunfixer plug and KA puck I went out and ran about 250 rounds through the s12. Everything fed and ejected without a hitch. When I came back to clean the gun I found that the puck does not 'pour' out of the gas tube easily like in the tear down video....I needed to tap it out from the back. Is this normal??? All the threads seem to be clean as does the outside of the puck. OEM puck also needs to be tapped out from the back instead of just falling out when the gun is tipped down. Is this normal???

[bigcec1 72]

I have to knock mine out some times it moves easly untill it gets to the edge of the threads some times and gets stuck I dont think that much about it just knock it out

[sudaevpps43 31]

Yesterday with my new gunfixer plug and KA puck I went out and ran about 250 rounds through the s12. Everything fed and ejected without a hitch. When I came back to clean the gun I found that the puck does not 'pour' out of the gas tube easily like in the tear down video....I needed to tap it out from the back. Is this normal??? All the threads seem to be clean as does the outside of the puck. OEM puck also needs to be tapped out from the back instead of just falling out when the gun is tipped down. Is this normal???

 

 

Having to tap out the puck is perfectly normal if you've run a couple hundred or more rounds through a Saiga 12. Its just the result of enough gas residue accumulating inside the gas block (and on the puck itself) that the puck can't fall out of the gas block due to gravity alone during disassembly. Whenever I run a low number of rounds through my Saiga 12 before cleaning it, during disassembly the gas puck will almost always drop out by gravity alone, but if I've shot about 200 or more rounds I always have had to tap the gas puck out. So again its perfectly normal and nothing to worry about.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Frogfoot

[TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121]

Yesterday with my new gunfixer plug and KA puck I went out and ran about 250 rounds through the s12. Everything fed and ejected without a hitch. When I came back to clean the gun I found that the puck does not 'pour' out of the gas tube easily like in the tear down video....I needed to tap it out from the back. Is this normal??? All the threads seem to be clean as does the outside of the puck. OEM puck also needs to be tapped out from the back instead of just falling out when the gun is tipped down. Is this normal???

 

 

Having to tap out the puck is perfectly normal if you've run a couple hundred or more rounds through a Saiga 12. Its just the result of enough gas residue accumulating inside the gas block (and on the puck itself) that the puck can't fall out of the gas block due to gravity alone during disassembly. Whenever I run a low number of rounds through my Saiga 12 before cleaning it, during disassembly the gas puck will almost always drop out by gravity alone, but if I've shot about 200 or more rounds I always have had to tap the gas puck out. So again its perfectly normal and nothing to worry about.

 

But now that I THINK I have cleaned it, it still doesn't fall out with gravity alone.

[sudaevpps43 31]

But now that I THINK I have cleaned it, it still doesn't fall out with gravity alone.

 

Sorry, I should have been more detailed. You have to be extremely thorough when cleaning the gas block and puck to get it clean to the point where it will fall out from just gravity alone again, and frankly such a thorough cleaning (where you are all but polishing the carbon residue off the puck and out of the threads in the gas block) is not ever necessary with a kalashnikov pattern firearm like the Saiga 12. In fact I myself typically only do such a thorough cleaning maybe two or three times a year, on the rare days I don't have much to do and have the time to take an hour or more to see (just for the hell of it mostly) if I can clean my Saiga 12 to the point where it looks like it could have just come from the factory. But during most cleanings I just take around 15 minutes to clean out the major fouling on the gas puck, piston rod, bolt carrier, and in the gas block, gas tube, chamber, and barrel, which is plenty good enough for a Saiga 12. After one of these more typical shorter cleanings my gas puck usually won't fall out from just gravity alone either, but everything is still more than clean enough for my Saiga 12 to still be utterly reliable. In other words your Saiga 12 will still run fine, even if you don't clean your gas block and cylinder to the point where the puck will fall out from just gravity.

[TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121]

Thanks you.

[krusader 1]

It would seem that if the gas puck needed more force than usual just to move back and forth then it would also require more gas to move it, or in other words if it is not moving freely and I mean absolutely freely then low brass would probably not cycle and logically it would eventually have some failures with high brass, there has to be some limitations on the gas pressure on what it can push. So it would probably mean that a thorough cleaning with a stiff brush and solvent is needed for the gas puck, unlike a regular ak the s12 actually requires cleaning to stake ones life on the reliability.

[tover26 18]

I had this problem with 1 of my S12s. The puck wouldn't move easily, even when scoured clean and oiled. It caused a lot of problems and grief. The easy solution would be to contact one of the S12 vendors who make pucks and getting a slightly undersized one, not the standard sized ones based on what the gas tube diameter is supposed to be. This would have saved me about 3 months of pain in the ass emails with different vendors, phone calls with different gun smiths, and ultimately 3 trips to my local gun shop and a growing collection of pucks. Finally, my local gun shop smith dissasembled my gas tube and severely polished it, essentially widening its diameter by an itsy bitsy bit. Now my gun works wonderfully. The same thing could have been accomplished by buying a slightly smaller sized puck and giving that a shot. I love how my S12 runs now, but it would have made a lot of sense to spend a lot less money and time on the issue. King Armory offered to send me a slightly smaller one but by then the issue was resolved with my local guy and way too much money for time and labor.

 

The puck should move easily. The threads might catch it when you try to remove it, so tapping it out might always have to happen. However, when I got my 2nd one from Tac47 and realized I could remove the plug and by lightly bumping the gun on the ground get the puck to fall out, I began asking around at my gun range and everyone can remove their puck without tapping or any force whatsoever.

 

Good luck.

[DSM Loki 0]

I had a somewhat similar situation, except that my new KA puck will not come out. The gun cycled better than ever for 300 rounds. When new the puck moved nice and free, was beautious. Fast forward to today. I got back from the range, begin to disassemble my gun to clean it, and the gas puck didn't fall out like normal. No big deal, until I tapped on it from the receiver end, and it wouldn't budge. Eventually I started trying to drive it out with considerable force, and it won't come out. I'm thinking I may have to use a punch and ball peen, while praying that it doesn't mar the threads on the way out.

[kingjoey 5]

I had a somewhat similar situation, except that my new KA puck will not come out. The gun cycled better than ever for 300 rounds. When new the puck moved nice and free, was beautious. Fast forward to today. I got back from the range, begin to disassemble my gun to clean it, and the gas puck didn't fall out like normal. No big deal, until I tapped on it from the receiver end, and it wouldn't budge. Eventually I started trying to drive it out with considerable force, and it won't come out. I'm thinking I may have to use a punch and ball peen, while praying that it doesn't mar the threads on the way out.

 

If you'd like, send the gas block and tappet in and we'll get your block honed to the right ID at no charge. I'd like to see what the internal dimensions are on your block also, we may add a slightly undersized tappet to the lineup if enough of these out-of-spec blocks are floating around

[DSM Loki 0]

I had a somewhat similar situation, except that my new KA puck will not come out. The gun cycled better than ever for 300 rounds. When new the puck moved nice and free, was beautious. Fast forward to today. I got back from the range, begin to disassemble my gun to clean it, and the gas puck didn't fall out like normal. No big deal, until I tapped on it from the receiver end, and it wouldn't budge. Eventually I started trying to drive it out with considerable force, and it won't come out. I'm thinking I may have to use a punch and ball peen, while praying that it doesn't mar the threads on the way out.

 

If you'd like, send the gas block and tappet in and we'll get your block honed to the right ID at no charge. I'd like to see what the internal dimensions are on your block also, we may add a slightly undersized tappet to the lineup if enough of these out-of-spec blocks are floating around

 

Alright, I'll send you a PM when I get a chance to disassemble it.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Fouling plays a part, but when clean(ish) my OEM gas puck has always required a slight shake to get it over the threads and falling into my hand. Not a tap from behind, just a shake of the weapon. *shrug* YMMV, and apparently does.

[TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121]

Fouling plays a part, but when clean(ish) my OEM gas puck has always required a slight shake to get it over the threads and falling into my hand. Not a tap from behind, just a shake of the weapon. *shrug* YMMV, and apparently does.

 

Doesn't come out over the threads with a shake or a poke from the front. Slight tap on the back and it does come out. I think it (and the OEM plud) did come out with gravity only when there was only about 300 rounds through the gun. Now were at 550. What I think I need to do is take it out again and put a couple hundred more rounds through it and see what happens.... I have cleaned it and played with it too much now to recreate where it was when I got back from the range.

[krusader 1]

To bad the saiga 12 was not like a real ak and could be shot for 5000 rounds and still work.

I love mine, but I wanted an ak shotgun that worked llke and ak rifle

[StarPD 6]

Not sure how my S-12 gas tappet moved when new, as I bought it already converted and test fired. But I bought a KA tappet and a Gunfixr plug. Both were snug, more than I thought was good. so I used a bore brush, I think it was a 20 gauge one, and soaked the inside of the gas block and threads with solvent, and twisted the bore brush repeatedly inside the empty gas block, especially in the threads. I also put the Gunfixr plug in, and it was too snug too. Manually turned it in and out until it turned relatively freely. Not so loose that I'd worry about it moving when shooting a lot, but just enough so that I could easily turn it by hand.

 

Afterward. the gas tappet came out easy with just s slight push from behind with a cleaning rod, and the Gunfixr plug adjusted easily.

 

Went out and fired 100 rounds, and while the Gunfixr plug still turned easily, the KA gas tappet was again a little stiff getting it out. Cleaned it all up again, and it works fine, and comes out with just a slight push with a cleaning rod again. Since the gun functions fine, that will be my regular cleaning routine: Push the KA tappet out with a cleaning rod, clean the gas block and tube with a bore brush and solvent, making sure to clean the threads in the gas block, and put it up for the next shooting session.

 

The gas block and tappet do get dirty from carbon and in some cases, plastic buildup from shooting. An occasional cleaning is, at least for my S-12, all it takes for it to remain reliable.

 

I think if after careful cleaning with solvent and a bore brush, the tappet is still difficult to get out, it needs to be polished enough to allow free movement, or at least requiring only a slight push with a cleaning rod from behind.

[sudaevpps43 31]

To bad the saiga 12 was not like a real ak and could be shot for 5000 rounds and still work.

I love mine, but I wanted an ak shotgun that worked llke and ak rifle

 

For the heck of it one time I decided to just keep shooting my Saiga 12 without cleaning it, to find out how many rounds had to be fired throught it before it started to jam from being dirty. Over 800 rounds later it was still cycling fine and I gave up, and on this board I have heard of people who have run 2000 rounds between cleanings without having any cycling problems, so I would not be surprised if a Saiga 12 could actually go three, four, or even five thousand rounds without a cleaning and still cycle fine.

[TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121]

Follow-up: Well I went back to the range today and ran about 175 rounds through the s-12. Came home and the puck was forward in the chamber and I could not push it further in with my finger. Had to lightly beat the kA tappet out from the back with just the rod and hard tapping. I think it might be too tight as is the oem puck...if one is the other is...any suggestions...better solvant?? more cleaning??? there was some looseness to it before I shot it the time before today. Good amount of carbon on the bottom of the gun fixer plug...and in the threads...3 ports...3" #4 buck shot great on -1 but then I could tell the difference on turning the plug.

[tover26 18]

Hi To the Floor...

 

I had a similar problem with my off-the-shelf shop bought S12. The pucks (OEM and KA and Chaos) were tight and it led to many problems. However, unlike what you described, my gun began jamming, FTEs, FTCs, and blowing brown smoke after about 10 shots. That you got 175 shots through suggests that you're just fine. I bought a converted S12 from Tac47 and the puck in that one moves freely. If I unscrew the plug, the puck will fall out just by shaking the gun.

 

Meanwile, the shop gun shoots like a dream... After a lot of agony (and a lot of help and advice from S12 members) on the shop S12, I had a local gunsmith strip away just a hair of material from the gas tube, essentially widening it just a bit. Now that one shoots like a dream as well. Before involving the gun smith, I polished, used copious amounts of solvent, cleaned, scrubbed, buffed, and did everything I could think of to remove carbon, lead, etc from the puck, the tube, the plug, and the gas ports. Turns out it was the shop gun having a too small gas tube.

 

If you start having FTEs/FTCs and blowing acrid-smelling smoke, I'd suggest getting a slightly smaller diameter puck from KA. There have been several threads where KA jumped on and offered these. Their instructions note it as well. It'll save you a lot of trouble.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Yesterday with my new gunfixer plug and KA puck I went out and ran about 250 rounds through the s12. Everything fed and ejected without a hitch. When I came back to clean the gun I found that the puck does not 'pour' out of the gas tube easily like in the tear down video....I needed to tap it out from the back. Is this normal??? All the threads seem to be clean as does the outside of the puck. OEM puck also needs to be tapped out from the back instead of just falling out when the gun is tipped down. Is this normal???

 

Having a puck that doesn't just fall out of the gas exchange chamber is OK, and not necessarily undesirable. After firing a residue not unlike "seasoning" a cooking pan will form where the puck moves back and forth in the gas exchange chamber. This "seasoning" helps form a seal allowing gas from the barrel to push the puck back without losing pressure due to gases escaping around the sides of the puck.

 

In my own workshop I have steam cleaners, and equipment which allow me to completely remove any residue from the puck and gas exchange chamber. After doing so, I have found that it often takes up to 10 rounds before the guns are cycling reliably again. After 10 rounds - and a little seasoning from the residues - I am able to fire hundreds of shells of any type with no cycling problems.

 

I find that simply swabbing the barrel, gas exchange chamber, and gas tube with a no residue cleaner, and a piece of old t shirt on a cleaning rod cleans the gun very well without removing the "seasoning" necessary to eliminate undesirable gas leakage around the puck.

 

By the way - I read somewhere on the forum that someone who does conversions recommends welding up the hole at the back of the gas exchange chamber. Don't. The aperture is there to eliminate back pressure as the puck is forced back against the plunger by gases vented in from the barrel. Welding it up simply creates more resistance, and requires the gas system to work harder to move the puck back.

 

If the gun stops cycling reliably after a couple of hundred rounds, my experience is that the problem is much more likely an occluded gas port, or ports - especially on a stock gun with unmodified ports. Before taking everything apart and going after the gas exchange chamber, try straightening out a paper clip. bending one end about 1/4" - hooking it back at about -15 degrees to a 90 degree right angle, and reaming out the gas ports.

 

You will also get some loose flaky residue from powder, plastic, and wadding in the gas exchange chamber after a couple hundred rounds. Unless there is a huge amount, it is unlikely to affect cycling. Between cleanings - most of the time the residue chunks can simply be dumped out when the gas plug is removed.

 

Also, try putting a drop of oil on both of the bolt carrier rails inside the receiver when you are done to decrease resistance from the receiver side of the equation.

 

Good luck!

 

WS

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Follow-up: Well I went back to the range today and ran about 175 rounds through the s-12. Came home and the puck was forward in the chamber and I could not push it further in with my finger. Had to lightly beat the kA tappet out from the back with just the rod and hard tapping. I think it might be too tight as is the oem puck...if one is the other is...any suggestions...better solvant?? more cleaning??? there was some looseness to it before I shot it the time before today. Good amount of carbon on the bottom of the gun fixer plug...and in the threads...3 ports...3" #4 buck shot great on -1 but then I could tell the difference on turning the plug.

 

It also occurred to me that your gas exchange chamber may be out of round. I have worked on a number of Saigas where this is the case. Usually it isn't a big deal, but if the chamber is REALLY out of round, there is little that can be done short of reshaping the inside. Another poster has generously offered to hone the inside of the GE chamber on your gun free of charge. If you find the GE chamber is out of round, I recommend you take him up on it.

 

WS

[gunfun 3,931]

I actually had a similar issue to the O.P the last time I cleaned mine. Mine is a very tight fit with either the oem or the KA. I have been very pleased with the KA and the better cycling it gave me so far. until trying to remove it last time. I used Break free clp liberally and gave it time to soak. It took quite a lot of palm strikes and a damaged cleaning rod to get the thing out. I was frankly concerned that I was damaging either the tappet or the threads. The gun wasn't all that dirty either. My impression was that the sharpest edge of the concave side had flared out a little and was hanging up on the threads in the gas block. I thought I felt some very slight burr forming, but if so it was very hard to tell.

 

I VERY LIGHTLY dressed the edge with a very fine diamond stone I have and this time it popped out with a light tap and some thumb pressure. (I also used a solid piece of 3/8" rod to push with this time.) I think that with my tight fit and the very fine edge on the front face of the tappet that was the issue and now it is solved. Future runs might be a little better if he left that rim a couple of thousandths thicker. I would still recommend the tappet to anyone.

[TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121]

Thanks guys I am reading along... I also have a call in to KA Mgf. It's a little tight when it is clean but was definately "palm strikes" force to get it out after shooting.

 

Well I just know I'm going to have to go out and shoot it again.