Finished my pistol grip conversion today

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I never said that it was a safety issue, other posters made that comment.

 

Anyway, please remember that you are the one who made his own thread specifically looking for feedback on how well your conversion restoration was done. You could have simply added your post to the picture thread, but no, you asked for comments... and then get all butt-hurt when some of those comments are negative.

 

I think perhaps you should have specified: "Rate my conversion.. glowing compliments only, please!"

 

The bottom line is: I may not agree with the methods/parts you used, but that doesn't really matter. I'm through arguing with you about it. It's your S-12. If you like how your gun turned out, great! Go shoot and enjoy it!

Edited August 31, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[StealthyBlagga 4]

You asked for everyone's opinion, but now you don't like it because their opinion differs from yours. I also think it looks like both the grip and the trigger guard are too far back. The proper fix is to relocate the holes to the correct locations, and then if you want you can fill the old holes (or not - it does not look like you care if the gun looks crappy). You need not buy an expensive new trigger guard - I just turned the original one around and re-used it:

 

 

Edited August 31, 2009 by StealthyBlagga

[nemesis 0]

you seem to be confused with my commenting...i do appreciate the feed back regarding the trigger guard, which i already knew was a bit close (my only problem with this was it being a safety issue)...

 

my offense does not regard the fact that the trigger and grip are to far away...it was more of the tone which i was told this that i took offense to. go back and read though the comments...i was fine with the criticism until post #9, which you went back and edited, however the origional is still in my quote. that is when i got the feeling you were being a bit rude toward me, before then i was simply asking questions, not disputing that it was wrong.

 

i will be doing more work on it today, bringing the grip another .25" forward (i really do like where the grip is currently placed) and then reworking the trigger guard to make more room.

 

again...i appropriated the input, not the condescending tone.

Edited August 31, 2009 by nemesis

[cjw 0]

a lot of posting over somethimg nobody cares about.why do you give a shit what any body cares about your gun?

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

you seem to be confused with my commenting...i do appreciate the feed back regarding the trigger guard, which i already knew was a bit close (my only problem with this was it being a safety issue)...

 

my offense does not regard the fact that the trigger and grip are to far away...it was more of the tone which i was told this that i took offense to. go back and read though the comments...i was fine with the criticism until post #9, which you went back and edited, however the origional is still in my quote. that is when i got the feeling you were being a bit rude toward me, before then i was simply asking questions, not disputing that it was wrong.

 

i will be doing more work on it today, bringing the grip another .25" forward (i really do like where the grip is currently placed) and then reworking the trigger guard to make more room.

 

again...i appropriated the input, not the condescending tone.

 

Look, man.. if you're going to be an active member on this forum, especially if you're going to put your work out there and ask for comments, you'll need to grow a thicker skin. It's as simple as that.

[nemesis 0]

Look, man.. if you're going to be an active member on this forum, especially if you're going to put your work out there and ask for comments, you'll need to grow a thicker skin. It's as simple as that.

 

 

fair enough.

 

putting the above crap behind us and moving on

 

 

i did a bit of reworking on where the grip sits, still to far away?

 

 

here is it with the guard (not yet modified)

 

 

old:

 

 

after i tinker with the trigger guard i should get another quarter inch from the back of the guard to the face of the trigger

Edited August 31, 2009 by nemesis

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

^ Well, I think it's still a little further back than mine, (not much, looks like 1/8"), but that's a definite improvement.

 

Try turning the stock triggerguard around from the way you had it mounted and see how much more room that gives ya between the trigger and front of the tg. It should look like SteathlyBlagga's gun... and you shouldn't have to drill any additional holes to get it that way.

[nditoto 0]

measured the distance between the curve of the trigger and the guard...1 1/8", my finger is .5"

 

is it really that much of a safety issue? and should i go though the extra work of drilling another hole in the frame to bring it out further?

 

Well, that distance on my S-12 is about 1 6/8" using an ak-builder triggerguard, so yours is definitely far from standard. I don't think I'd be comfortable with it.

 

Just want to lay this out there, but the last time I checked, we like to simplify our fractions especially concerning measurements

 

Oh look, I forgot to simplify a fraction. You're really going to try to give me shit over that? Imo, you can start criticizing others around here when you've figured out how to install your pistol grip/triggergroup properly.

 

...Anyways, having been the "friend" nemesis speaks of, I will agree entirely that the trigger looks to forward and that it may be to close to the trigger guard...

 

Just want to lay this out there, but the last time I checked, we like to spell "too" correctly.

 

...However, it was simply because there is some fine tuning needed on the trigger. In it's natural and proper resting position it is cocked back another 1/8" leaving plenty of room in there. Yes, the OEM trigger slot was used to mount the pistol grip. This was done in order to avoid as much sanding/grinding/cutting as possible given that we were working from nothing but the proper parts, no "Do-It-Yourself" kit was involved so not everything was as simple as it was for others...

 

No DIY kit is required to mount the pistol grip in the proper position, (forward of where it's mounted in your pics). You can re-use the factory triggerguard as well. You do have to cut a pistol grip hole into the proper place in the receiver to mount the pg the right way, however, (if you're not using a Tromix DIY kit).

 

If you don't have the knowledge and/or guts to do the job right, however, you can half-ass it, as you have here, then deal with the fucked up ergonomics that this improper positioning of parts results in. If that's really "good enough" for you, fine. It's not acceptable to most other forum members.

 

...In the end, the installation was clean, everything is precise and comfortable and just where the shooter likes it. If you ask me, the position of everything is really just a personal preference to the shooter and there really is no right or wrong way to do it. Afterall, we are modifying our guns into something that was not intended from the factory

 

Oh, there most certainly is a right and wrong way to do it. The proper position of the pistol grip is long established. If you wanna fuck around and mount it somewhere else, fine, but don't come here and try to tell us that it's "just as good" as doing things the right way, because that's clearly not the case.

 

Alright well I won't argue semantics with anybody here. I see where you are coming from with the whole "right" and "wrong" ideal. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that it was done wrong just because it's not identical to 98% of the other S-12 Conversions on the forum. Just my .02

[lframke 1]

My original observation about your trigger was based on a safety view point. I'm a NRA Law Enforcement instructor in Handgun and Shotgun. Safety is usually my first concern.

 

When you have your finger sandwiched between the trigger and the trigger guard and you are firing a high recoil firearm as the 12 gauge shotgun most certainly is you could start a string of "bump fires" that you may not be able to end because your trigger finger is trapped . You may not have a problem in ideal situations but if you were to stumble or loose your balance prior to firing, or while firing, this situation could develop making it VERY unsafe to be near you.

 

The Shotgun would also be unusable with gloves on. The Saiga and most all Military rifles have over sized trigger guards so that the weapon can be used in a combat situation with a gloved hand. Extra room in the trigger housing is also a benefit if the shooters hand is injured.

[zenmetsu 17]

Yeah, the grip and guard appear to be too far aft. Really, the PG would be fine there... i think that the guard is too short (front to back distance). Perhaps it can be stretched just a bit through reshaping, at the expense of the height... the height does appear to be a bit more than normal.

 

If this were done, the added length of the guard plus moving the whole assembly forward should put more than .25 inches between the two holes that you will have drilled up front.

 

For reference, here is my conversion that I finished up tonight using Cobra's trigger guard. This did not go so smoothly due to the FCG that I am using (it does not play well with DIY type guards...) I still need to replace the front furniture and plug the holes... I need to get a matching PG, but will probably get all blonde-colored furniture. I borrowed the PG and buttstock from my AK. Buttstock is US, so is the FCG, so this gun is 922r compliant even with the russian mags.

[7.62x39 0]

The PG T-nut should not run into the old trigger slot at all. Take a look at this pic. You can see the square hole for the T-nut is completely forward of the welded up trigger slot. I just took a piece of scrap sheet metal, trimmed it to fit and welded up the old slot completely. The T-nut hole is at least a 1/4" forward of that. Trying to reuse the original holes that are in the wrong location, is what caused all your problems.

 

 

For a TG, I just modified a standard AK TG.

 

 

[7.62x39 0]

Use this pic to compare how much clearance exists between the trigger and the TG, when it's installed in the correct position.

 

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

The PG T-nut should not run into the old trigger slot at all. Take a look at this pic. You can see the square hole for the T-nut is completely forward of the welded up trigger slot. I just took a piece of scrap sheet metal, trimmed it to fit and welded up the old slot completely. The T-nut hole is at least a 1/4" forward of that. Trying to reuse the original holes that are in the wrong location, is what caused all your problems...

 

He knows that now, 7.62. I haven't seen the gun, but from nemesis' description of how he mounted his pg, (lengthened and widened the OEM trigger slot), I don't think it'd be possible to go back and cut the pg hole.. too much steel has already been removed.

 

Anyway, I think that while nemesis' method here is unorthodox, it can be made to work, if the OEM trigger slot is sufficiently modified. It won't be quite as solid an installation as one using the standard square(ish) pg hole, but it'll probably work well enough.

[7.62x39 0]

Here's the correct layout.

 

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

^ Yeah, that's the diagram I used. I measured 20x since I could only cut once. My pg hole turned out pretty well I think.

 

Posting the diagram of how he could have done it probably won't help at this point, though. I think his modified OEM trigger slot probably extends well into what would be pg hole territory. nemesis cannot put steel back into his receiver for a "do-over"... but he probably can make the trigger slot do the job if he mods it correctly.

 

Hey nemesis, would you mind taking a picture of what you've done to the trigger slot and posting it? I'm curious to see exactly how much you've modified it.

Edited September 1, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[nemesis 0]

^ Yeah, that's the diagram I used. I measured 20x since I could only cut once. My pg hole turned out pretty well I think.

 

Posting the diagram of how he could have done it probably won't help at this point, though. I think his modified OEM trigger slot probably extends well into what would be pg hole territory. nemesis cannot put steel back into his receiver for a "do-over"... but he probably can make the trigger slot do the job if he mods it correctly.

 

Hey nemesis, would you mind taking a picture of what you've done to the trigger slot and posting it? I'm curious to see exactly how much you've modified it.

 

sure...i loosely placed the lug and grip in place so you can get an idea of how it sits

 

 

i also today made a new guard for the gun....right now im busy fine filing and sanding it but it should be done soon...it will give me ALOT of room inside the trigger guard.

 

 

here is a look at the new trigger guard...i still have a decent amount of fine work to do but its coming along nicely...i styled it a bit after the ak74 style guard since that is what im basing the design of my gun on...hopefully today i can get the fine work done then paint it.

Edited September 1, 2009 by nemesis

[nemesis 0]

 

well...filed and sanded...now i just need to paint it sometime...

 

thoughts?

[vitamink 90]

dig the new guard.

[7.62x39 0]

well...filed and sanded...now i just need to paint it sometime...

 

thoughts?

 

It looks like you are well on your way to correcting the problem. I applaud you at least having the balls to attempt a legitimate conversion and not use one of those bolt on T6 wannabe conversions. That are not even a conversion at all since you are still stuck dealing with all that mickey mouse trigger linkage. Just one thing, please tell me that, that ugly ass nut and bolt holding the front of the TG on is just temporary.

[nemesis 0]

well...filed and sanded...now i just need to paint it sometime...

 

thoughts?

 

It looks like you are well on your way to correcting the problem. I applaud you at least having the balls to attempt a legitimate conversion and not use one of those bolt on T6 wannabe conversions. That are not even a conversion at all since you are still stuck dealing with all that mickey mouse trigger linkage. Just one thing, please tell me that, that ugly ass nut and bolt holding the front of the TG on is just temporary.

 

yes...it most defiantly is...

 

i hate it...however for right now it will have to do

[lokmeup 30]

well...filed and sanded...now i just need to paint it sometime...

 

thoughts?

 

Horrible.... just get one of the AK type trigger guards made for the S12.

 

If you put that thing on there... you will NEVER stop thinking about how it DOES NOT look authentic and you'll end up changing it later anyways. One thing hobbies have taught me: Do it right the first time. Even if it costs a little more to begin with. It is always cheaper than doing something twice, three times or more.

 

Just one man's opinion.. take it or fcuk it..

Edited September 1, 2009 by lokmeup

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

well...filed and sanded...now i just need to paint it sometime...

 

thoughts?

 

Much improved.

 

As 7.62 mentioned though.. that huge bolt that's securing the front of the tg has got to go. What do you have planned to replace it and (semi)permanently mount this new tg you've made?

 

Oh, and thanks for showing us a pic of exactly what you're working with inside the receiver. I'm not trying to be a dick ... but if you compare your receiver to either the diagram or 7.62's pic of his receiver showing his pg hole, I think you'll see that your pg is still mounted too far back. I think you could fix that by further extending the trigger slot forward, until it's front edge is 2.1" from the rear of the receiver and 0.7" from the rear of the trigger hole; as per the diagram. My advice is to use that diagram as a reference to fine-tune your pg placement.

Edited September 1, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[nemesis 0]

well...filed and sanded...now i just need to paint it sometime...

 

thoughts?

 

Much improved.

 

As 7.62 mentioned though.. that huge bolt that's securing the front of the tg has got to go. What do you have planned to replace it and (semi)permanently mount this new tg you've made?

 

Oh, and thanks for showing us a pic of exactly what you're working with inside the receiver. I'm not trying to be a dick ... but if you compare your receiver to either the diagram or 7.62's pic of his receiver showing his pg hole, I think you'll see that your pg is still mounted too far back. I think you could fix that by further extending the trigger slot forward, until it's front edge is 2.1" from the rear of the receiver; as per the diagram. My advice is to use that diagram as a reference to fine-tune your pg placement.

 

 

im actually happy where the grip is now...its not far enough away from the trigger to be an issue of any kind...with the 1" extra on the stock it feels just perfect for my arm length...so i dare not move it any further forward. i need to get shorter nuts for the bolts on the trigger guard...thats my issue right now...the bolt is black...but i got locktight nuts which are far to tall to work on the inside of the gun...the hammer cannot come down all the way because the nut is in the way...so i have the bolt turned around...so when i get a smaller nut i will be flipping it around so the thin black head on the bolt will be showing.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

^ Cool. If you're happy with the grip placement, that's what matters. It's your shotgun.

 

For the tg.. as an alternative to a nylock nut, (which as you've discovered, is really too large to use), use a standard nut with a locking washer and a generous application of red loctite, (or blue if you're unsure whether you'll ever want to easily remove it).

[nemesis 0]

^ Cool. If you're happy with the grip placement, that's what matters. It's your shotgun.

 

For the tg.. as an alternative to a nylock nut, (which as you've discovered, is really too large to use), use a standard nut with a locking washer and a generous application of red loctite, (or blue if you're unsure whether you'll ever want to easily remove it).

 

 

thats exactly what im planning on

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

^ Cool. If you're happy with the grip placement, that's what matters. It's your shotgun.

 

For the tg.. as an alternative to a nylock nut, (which as you've discovered, is really too large to use), use a standard nut with a locking washer and a generous application of red loctite, (or blue if you're unsure whether you'll ever want to easily remove it).

 

 

thats exactly what im planning on

 

It should work well. I secured the 2 front attachment points of my ak-builder triggerguard in this way, (I don't rivet), and that bitch ain't goin anywhere!

 

Please update your thread with photos when you make more progress.. I'm interested to see how she turns out.

Edited September 1, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[Moe Zambeak 53]

Just thought I would post some pics from my last conversion. They are from the Conversion thread stickied at the top of the forum. My Photobucket went over it's limit, so I had to re-host them here on the site.

 

I re-used the factory TG. I forgot to take a pic after cutting off the tab with the 3rd hole on the back:

 

 

 

I also re-used the existing TG holes. When I moved the TG up one set of holes, they lined up well. I used aluminum rivets to hold it in place:

 

 

 

I cut the top otf the rivets off on the inside with my Dremel. You can also see where I cut my new PG hole:

 

 

 

A few close ups of the PG hole:

 

 

It's ugly, but rock solid:

 

Edited September 1, 2009 by Moe Zambeak

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

You can see where the dremel got away from ya a couple times on that pg hole cut, Moe.

 

Don't feel bad though, mine's almost as ugly, and of course it doesn't matter.. so long as it's in the right spot and fairly square, any pg hole works. The pistol grip itself covers a multitude of sins.

 

I think your restoration turned out really well and that factory triggerguard was re-used to good effect. I fucked mine up a bit when dremelling off the rivet heads to remove it. Of course, I wasn't too careful about it since I had already planned to use the ak-builder tg.. but still, the work you did is nice and clean.. all except that pg hole..

Edited September 2, 2009 by post-apocalyptic

[Moe Zambeak 53]

LOL!

 

The worst part about that PG hole is that I used a PG nut off of one of my Norincos for measurements. I was too impatient to wait a day for my Tapco one to come in. Turns out, the Norinco PG nut is a little larger than the Tapco one I couldn't swear enough to fix that one, although I sure tried.

 

All in all it still fits well. That is the important part.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

LOL!

 

The worst part about that PG hole is that I used a PG nut off of one of my Norincos for measurements. I was too impatient to wait a day for my Tapco one to come in. Turns out, the Norinco PG nut is a little larger than the Tapco one I couldn't swear enough to fix that one, although I sure tried.

 

All in all it still fits well. That is the important part.

 

Yeah, I think the pg hole dimensions have as loose tolerances as most of the other parts on the weapon, which is one of the strengths of its design. Less than perfect pg holes work just fine, so long as the sides are fairly straight and don't force the pg nut into an off-center angle.