BuzzKillin 21 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Ok, I'm going to choose my words very carefully here. I'm not going to vendor bash in any way, and I will be MORE than happy to admit if I've done something wrong in the installation of the brake, but I had a potentially very dangerous situation arise with the clip on DPH brake today. I'll just report what happened. I put the clip over the fsb and threaded the brake on without difficulty (it was pretty tight, but it fit just fine). I tightened the two bottom screws good and tight. I used loctite on the main thread and the two screw threads. I checked alignment as best I could and everything seemed very snug. At the range, the first 40-50 rounds or so went just fine, but when I fired the next time I felt a hot spray against the left side of my face. I stopped to check the brake... The threaded clip had snapped entirely and the entire brake had shimmied up towards the barrel end, held in place only by the two tightened screws. It left two deep drag marks on the barrel. One more shot and I think the projectile could potentially have hit the inner ring of the brake, and god only knows what would have happened; Either that, or the brake would have just fallen off. I'm not really happy about the gouge marks in my barrel, but fortunately nobody got hurt. Again, I am not going to come out swinging at the vendors on this issue, but I would very much like some analysis. The brake installation is a no-brainer in appearance anyway. It does not come with any instructions whatsoever which is testament to how easy it should be. Amazingly, I was shooting video of the brake (planning to post here on Saig-12), and I actually caught it happening. Watch how the brake begins to move outwards towards the end of the barrel. I'm not sure how DPH will handle this issue, but I've heard very good things about them, so I'll let you guys know what they say. I'm sure they will offer some kind of either exchange or refund or something. The deep gouges in the barrel.. not sure. For all I know I may have done something wrong during installation, but I'm just not quite sure what that could have been. Video: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenmetsu 17 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Great video, and I would agree that you were lucky to catch this. It looks as if the recoil alone was pulling against the part that engages the FSB, and perhaps the metal just is not thick enough at that point. I have had similar recoil-induced failures, one of which was with my 8mm Yugo mauser; the recoil literally pulled the threaded end of the cleaning rod off... whoops. Inertia is a damned powerful thing sometimes. I hope that DPH gets ya squared away on this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Yeah MB undergo a lot more stress than a flash suppressor. Looks like it should be welded in place but that would just undo the whole point of the design. Absolutely that clip needs beefing up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rrr70 5 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I ordered mine from CSS today and now kind of worried if it was a good idea. That's a second failure (I think)_ that's I saw on this forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuzzKillin 21 Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I ordered mine from CSS today and now kind of worried if it was a good idea. That's a second failure (I think)_ that's I saw on this forum. Sorry to hear that. I did not know that there were any other reports. I'm still thinking of what I possibly could have done wrong during the install, and the ONLY thing that I think I could potentially have done "wrong" was to over tighten the brake when I was putting it on. It did not move all the way to the top of the thread until I applied some pressure, but then again, I did take it off one more time before loctiting everything, and it looked just fine. No sign of aberration or metal fatigue that I could see. But it could be that tightening it hard weakened the metal, but still, I have to say, I don't think that that SHOULD be possible when you reach the end of the thread. At the very least, there should be very clear instructions about tightening (i.e. how far up the break NEEDS to ride before you fix it with the screws). I'm not sure. I really want to hear what DPH has to say.. maybe they've got a good explanation of what could have happened, and perhaps there are viable workarounds. No matter what, people using this brake should be extra aware until they are 100% sure that it is completely locked down after 100s of rounds. I am still curling my toes thinking about what might have happened if I had just said, "ah, screw it.. I'm sure it's fine". Projectile hitting brake on the way out.. yikes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenmetsu 17 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I do not suspect that you did anything wrong. Looking at it, it appears that the metal is a bit thin where the threading is cut. The design appears to be sound, but I would definitely opt for thicker material. I would be interested to know the thickness of the metal and the depth of the threading. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superhawk138 202 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 If you look here in this post. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=39722&st=30&p=362212entry362212 I did some of the beta testing and had a similar failure as yours. Scott sent me a new clip that was a different metal than the original clip. So far i have put over 400 rounds through it with no failures. I think the failure results when you give that last 1/4 turn that's pretty tight. I filed a little off the side that touches the FSB so that last 1/4 turn doesn't stress the metal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuzzKillin 21 Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 If you look here in this post. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=39722&st=30&p=362212entry362212 I did some of the beta testing and had a similar failure as yours. Scott sent me a new clip that was a different metal than the original clip. So far i have put over 400 rounds through it with no failures. I think the failure results when you give that last 1/4 turn that's pretty tight. I filed a little off the side that touches the FSB so that last 1/4 turn doesn't stress the metal. Thanks Superhawk. I wish I had seen this post earlier. The pattern where the brake broke is exactly the same as in your picture, and as I mentioned, I had tightened it pretty well especially towards the end of the thread. Maybe I can get DPH to send me a new clip and I'd be happy to retest and repost, especially if the metal is a little thicker. I'm sure they have considered this, but it seems almost as if there should be a separate threaded piece that supports under the barrel as well, with precut holes where the 4 and 8 o'clock screws could penetrate and contact the barrel sleeve. This would give a very nice balanced pressure all around the barrel, would help with centering the MB, and would eliminate all of the returns I'm sure they will get do to people unintentially overtightening. I dunno, I'm sure they have much smarter people than me doing their engineering. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I suggested the interlocking threaded piece to Scott, also. Mine is OK, but has less than 100 rounds. What I did was to get longer set screws and dimple the barrel shroud for the screws to set into. This should help retain it and lessen the potential of forward movement. It may be a temp problem. I was aware of the failure during the beta tests, and it does look exactly like yours. Please keep us posted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dph arms 88 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I just saw this..... BuzzKill, sorry for the prblem, we will take care of it. Let us know if you need a new clip or if you need a refund. We had BETA testing done on these for several months because we wanted to ensure that we were putting out the best product that we could. We found several things along the way that we made improvements on. We started out with the flash hiders because the pressures on them are significantly lower. On the brakes, the first ones did not have a way to time them onto the bbl. We assumed that people would use loctite (our mistake) guys were overtightening them to get them to line up and that was stressing the clip and causing them to brake. Our next move was to incorporate the set screws for timimg the brakes. This caused people to not tighten them up far enough. We went back to the drawing board and decided that the best fix for timing would be a crush washer. We made a crush washer/spacer and sent them out but some people were concerned that the washer may hit the bullet. Our final design was to incorporate the crush washer into the brake so that it would be all one piece. This is the version that we are currently shipping. My concern is that we may have come full circle and caused people to overtighten the brakes again and therefore stressing the clips and causing them to brake again. As for the 2 piece threaded clip design, we went down that road but we found that there is just not enough quality control at the Saiga factory. The bbl shroud diameter is all over the place. To install the brake and clip, we suggest that you install the clip and then screw on the brake until it begins to tighten up. Once the tightening has begun, turn it onto the clip until the set screws are lined up on the bottom. Take a drill bit and "dimple" the bbl shroud for the end of the set screws to sit in. If you use loctite, that should be all you need. It is hard to go off of the number of threads that are still showing because the length of the bbl shroud varies so much. Scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuzzKillin 21 Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I suggested the interlocking threaded piece to Scott, also. Mine is OK, but has less than 100 rounds. What I did was to get longer set screws and dimple the barrel shroud for the screws to set into. This should help retain it and lessen the potential of forward movement. It may be a temp problem. I was aware of the failure during the beta tests, and it does look exactly like yours. Please keep us posted. I'm not sure that dimpling the shroud is going to help much at all unless the dimples are very deep. You can see how the force of the recoil just tore through the shroud steel like a tiger's claw. When I took the brake off after having tightened it once, there were very good dimples in the shroud, which I aimed for when I did the final seating. If I can get anew clip from them, maybe I can cut the old piece and create a lower support piece. I suppose I should just call DPH, but I want them to see this thread. The gentleman's name is Scott? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dph arms 88 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 the post above yours... Scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuzzKillin 21 Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 the post above yours... Scott Hi Scott, and thank you for your speedy reply. Yes, I would very much like to try again with a new clip, and although I don't want to exactly be a crash test dummy (I'm sure we could find those ), I would be more than happy to give it another shot using your instructions. My only word of advise would be to include a one page sheet with the brakes, with your installation instructions and maybe some best practices as far as checking alignment. There are a lot of relatively careless non-mechanically minded people out there, and someone could potentially get injured. Should I call your office, or PM you with my info? Thanks again.. it's great to be able to work directly with a vendor on improving already very good products. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Scott, I dimpled the shroud but the issue set screws are too short if you dimple it. I got the next size up length wise. I suggested that in my original evaluation post. It will add additional resistance to forward movement with them countersunk into the barrel shroud. I would ship with both lengths. I have no issues, but have only fired about 100 rounds. Another idea is to have a pair of set screws through the top at the 10 and 2 oclock position also, that are through the brake and the clip and dimpled into the shroud 180 degrees from the bottom two. Bernie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dph arms 88 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 the post above yours... Scott Hi Scott, and thank you for your speedy reply. Yes, I would very much like to try again with a new clip, and although I don't want to exactly be a crash test dummy (I'm sure we could find those ), I would be more than happy to give it another shot using your instructions. My only word of advise would be to include a one page sheet with the brakes, with your installation instructions and maybe some best practices as far as checking alignment. There are a lot of relatively careless non-mechanically minded people out there, and someone could potentially get injured. Should I call your office, or PM you with my info? Thanks again.. it's great to be able to work directly with a vendor on improving already very good products. Call the office if you will. Terry or myself will take care of it. I told the guys in the back to make sure that they ship out the 4140 clips and to purge all of the original ones. I fired the guys in the warehouse last week so I have been packing all the orders. I was back there today and found a box of the original clip still on the shelf. I am not saying that you got the wrong one but it is possible. This time we will know for sure that the one you get is 4140. The tensil strength of the 4140 is 150 times stronger that the original. scott 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RoughRider666 47 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 the post above yours... Scott Hi Scott, and thank you for your speedy reply. Yes, I would very much like to try again with a new clip, and although I don't want to exactly be a crash test dummy (I'm sure we could find those ), I would be more than happy to give it another shot using your instructions. My only word of advise would be to include a one page sheet with the brakes, with your installation instructions and maybe some best practices as far as checking alignment. There are a lot of relatively careless non-mechanically minded people out there, and someone could potentially get injured. Should I call your office, or PM you with my info? Thanks again.. it's great to be able to work directly with a vendor on improving already very good products. Call the office if you will. Terry or myself will take care of it. I told the guys in the back to make sure that they ship out the 4140 clips and to purge all of the original ones. I fired the guys in the warehouse last week so I have been packing all the orders. I was back there today and found a box of the original clip still on the shelf. I am not saying that you got the wrong one but it is possible. This time we will know for sure that the one you get is 4140. The tensil strength of the 4140 is 150 times stronger that the original. scott Scott, I ordered 2 of these from CSS lastweek and i put one of my x39 and 545 but have not tried either of them, and quite honestly, im a lttle scared to after reading this. How do i know if i got old clips or the new 4140's? is there any way i can get 2 new clips just to be on the safe side? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuzzKillin 21 Posted September 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 the post above yours... Scott Hi Scott, and thank you for your speedy reply. Yes, I would very much like to try again with a new clip, and although I don't want to exactly be a crash test dummy (I'm sure we could find those ), I would be more than happy to give it another shot using your instructions. My only word of advise would be to include a one page sheet with the brakes, with your installation instructions and maybe some best practices as far as checking alignment. There are a lot of relatively careless non-mechanically minded people out there, and someone could potentially get injured. Should I call your office, or PM you with my info? Thanks again.. it's great to be able to work directly with a vendor on improving already very good products. Call the office if you will. Terry or myself will take care of it. I told the guys in the back to make sure that they ship out the 4140 clips and to purge all of the original ones. I fired the guys in the warehouse last week so I have been packing all the orders. I was back there today and found a box of the original clip still on the shelf. I am not saying that you got the wrong one but it is possible. This time we will know for sure that the one you get is 4140. The tensil strength of the 4140 is 150 times stronger that the original. scott Alright, just called your office and spoke to Terry. He took down my info and said he'd ship it out today. Great service. Thanks. I'll PM you the address info as well just to make sure its all correct. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Scott how do I know if I got the old clip or new 4140 clips Bernie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dph arms 88 Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 There is no way to tell, everything that has been shipped for the last 60 days should be 4140. Scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
unclejake 428 Posted September 23, 2009 Report Share Posted September 23, 2009 Scott, do you remember when you first started selling the Flash Hiders and had issues with the Hiders being canted? You sent out new clips and crush washers and it fixed the situation. What I am trying to ask is are the replacement clips that you sent out for that problem the 4140 clips? I was gonna just buy a brake and use it on my hider clip, but would rather be safe! Thanks from a loyal and satisfied customer! Unclejake Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dph arms 88 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Scott, do you remember when you first started selling the Flash Hiders and had issues with the Hiders being canted? You sent out new clips and crush washers and it fixed the situation. What I am trying to ask is are the replacement clips that you sent out for that problem the 4140 clips? I was gonna just buy a brake and use it on my hider clip, but would rather be safe! Thanks from a loyal and satisfied customer! Unclejake Ok, we have had 3 clips to fail so far on the muzzle brakes.. There is no issue with the flash hiders. We are going to redesign the brake mounting clip so we are asking everyone to NOT use the muzzle brakes with the clips. We are not sure if it is a clip problem or if it is an installation problem (I'm not blaming guys who have put them on). What I mean by that is there may be some inherent stress applied to the clip when it is tightened down. We had rather be on the safe side and do some due diligence on these. We will take care of anyone who has bought one so far. I'll keep everyone updated as we move forward with this. Scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuzzKillin 21 Posted September 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Scott, do you remember when you first started selling the Flash Hiders and had issues with the Hiders being canted? You sent out new clips and crush washers and it fixed the situation. What I am trying to ask is are the replacement clips that you sent out for that problem the 4140 clips? I was gonna just buy a brake and use it on my hider clip, but would rather be safe! Thanks from a loyal and satisfied customer! Unclejake Ok, we have had 3 clips to fail so far on the muzzle brakes.. There is no issue with the flash hiders. We are going to redesign the brake mounting clip so we are asking everyone to NOT use the muzzle brakes with the clips. We are not sure if it is a clip problem or if it is an installation problem (I'm not blaming guys who have put them on). What I mean by that is there may be some inherent stress applied to the clip when it is tightened down. We had rather be on the safe side and do some due diligence on these. We will take care of anyone who has bought one so far. I'll keep everyone updated as we move forward with this. Scott I'm sure this is a real pain in the ass for you guys, but you are probably doing the right thing. +1 on a great and responsible vendor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
unclejake 428 Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Scott, do you remember when you first started selling the Flash Hiders and had issues with the Hiders being canted? You sent out new clips and crush washers and it fixed the situation. What I am trying to ask is are the replacement clips that you sent out for that problem the 4140 clips? I was gonna just buy a brake and use it on my hider clip, but would rather be safe! Thanks from a loyal and satisfied customer! Unclejake Ok, we have had 3 clips to fail so far on the muzzle brakes.. There is no issue with the flash hiders. We are going to redesign the brake mounting clip so we are asking everyone to NOT use the muzzle brakes with the clips. We are not sure if it is a clip problem or if it is an installation problem (I'm not blaming guys who have put them on). What I mean by that is there may be some inherent stress applied to the clip when it is tightened down. We had rather be on the safe side and do some due diligence on these. We will take care of anyone who has bought one so far. I'll keep everyone updated as we move forward with this. Scott I'm sure this is a real pain in the ass for you guys, but you are probably doing the right thing. +1 on a great and responsible vendor. +1 Problems will ALWAYS arise, the the test of a man is how he handles them. Scott is solid! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuzzKillin 21 Posted September 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 Scott, do you remember when you first started selling the Flash Hiders and had issues with the Hiders being canted? You sent out new clips and crush washers and it fixed the situation. What I am trying to ask is are the replacement clips that you sent out for that problem the 4140 clips? I was gonna just buy a brake and use it on my hider clip, but would rather be safe! Thanks from a loyal and satisfied customer! Unclejake Ok, we have had 3 clips to fail so far on the muzzle brakes.. There is no issue with the flash hiders. We are going to redesign the brake mounting clip so we are asking everyone to NOT use the muzzle brakes with the clips. We are not sure if it is a clip problem or if it is an installation problem (I'm not blaming guys who have put them on). What I mean by that is there may be some inherent stress applied to the clip when it is tightened down. We had rather be on the safe side and do some due diligence on these. We will take care of anyone who has bought one so far. I'll keep everyone updated as we move forward with this. Scott Would you guys rather do exchanges than refunds, if that is at all an option? PM Sent. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuzzKillin 21 Posted October 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Scott, do you remember when you first started selling the Flash Hiders and had issues with the Hiders being canted? You sent out new clips and crush washers and it fixed the situation. What I am trying to ask is are the replacement clips that you sent out for that problem the 4140 clips? I was gonna just buy a brake and use it on my hider clip, but would rather be safe! Thanks from a loyal and satisfied customer! Unclejake Ok, we have had 3 clips to fail so far on the muzzle brakes.. There is no issue with the flash hiders. We are going to redesign the brake mounting clip so we are asking everyone to NOT use the muzzle brakes with the clips. We are not sure if it is a clip problem or if it is an installation problem (I'm not blaming guys who have put them on). What I mean by that is there may be some inherent stress applied to the clip when it is tightened down. We had rather be on the safe side and do some due diligence on these. We will take care of anyone who has bought one so far. I'll keep everyone updated as we move forward with this. Scott Would you guys rather do exchanges than refunds, if that is at all an option? PM Sent. Scott, any further thoughts on this. I sent you a PM a while ago and I'm still on hold on what to do with the old clip/brake. Do you want them back? Exchange ok? Let me know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dph arms 88 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 sorry for the delay, it has been busy over the last couple weeks. As for returns, just hang on to everything for right now. We have new design being made now and I hope to have a few of them in early next week. If you want a refund, thats OK to. Just let us know what you want to do. Scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RoughRider666 47 Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) Ok, I'm going to choose my words very carefully here. I'm not going to vendor bash in any way, and I will be MORE than happy to admit if I've done something wrong in the installation of the brake, but I had a potentially very dangerous situation arise with the clip on DPH brake today. I'll just report what happened. I put the clip over the fsb and threaded the brake on without difficulty (it was pretty tight, but it fit just fine). I tightened the two bottom screws good and tight. I used loctite on the main thread and the two screw threads. I checked alignment as best I could and everything seemed very snug. At the range, the first 40-50 rounds or so went just fine, but when I fired the next time I felt a hot spray against the left side of my face. I stopped to check the brake... The threaded clip had snapped entirely and the entire brake had shimmied up towards the barrel end, held in place only by the two tightened screws. It left two deep drag marks on the barrel. One more shot and I think the projectile could potentially have hit the inner ring of the brake, and god only knows what would have happened; Either that, or the brake would have just fallen off. I'm not really happy about the gouge marks in my barrel, but fortunately nobody got hurt. Again, I am not going to come out swinging at the vendors on this issue, but I would very much like some analysis. The brake installation is a no-brainer in appearance anyway. It does not come with any instructions whatsoever which is testament to how easy it should be. Amazingly, I was shooting video of the brake (planning to post here on Saig-12), and I actually caught it happening. Watch how the brake begins to move outwards towards the end of the barrel. I'm not sure how DPH will handle this issue, but I've heard very good things about them, so I'll let you guys know what they say. I'm sure they will offer some kind of either exchange or refund or something. The deep gouges in the barrel.. not sure. For all I know I may have done something wrong during installation, but I'm just not quite sure what that could have been. Video: I really didnt want to dig up this thread again, but I had an issue with my DPH Muzzle Brake as well, except it happened after the very first shot. When i installed the brake, i tightened the set screws snug but not too snug like i was told to do, and when i fired the first shot, im glad i was wearing my sunglasses. I too felt the sensation of not only hot gasses hitting my left hand and face, but i actually caught some miner frag to my hand and face as well that i had to dig out with tweezers, cause some very miner bleeding. Luckily, there was no serious injuries, but it was enough to scare the hell out of me, and after that first shot, i immediately took the brake off and inspected it. I still dont really know what or how it happened, because the brake and the clip really doesnt look damaged at all, but it does look like there is some slight burring in the center, but im thinking that those might be from when it was machined, because if that was the bullet that hit it, it would have been fairly obvious i would think... after i removed the brake, the gun functioned perfectly. I just wanted to post this, because these few isolated incidences seem to be happening more and more, and i really dont want anyone else to have this happen to them again, so please be safe. I spoke with DPH, and they said they are working on a 2 piece collar clip to create a 360 degree thread around the barrel to make it a much more secure attachment...i hope this is released VERY soon, because i will not be using my compensators again, until that happens. good luck & be safe out there! -RR Edited October 11, 2009 by RoughRider666 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astig20 2 Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Who would put a product on the market without even testing it first? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GerryV 14 Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Who would put a product on the market without even testing it first? Superhawk and few others were involved in the beta testing. Superhawk's earlier post: If you look here in this post. http://forum.saiga-1...12entry362212 I did some of the beta testing and had a similar failure as yours. Scott sent me a new clip that was a different metal than the original clip. So far i have put over 400 rounds through it with no failures. I think the failure results when you give that last 1/4 turn that's pretty tight. I filed a little off the side that touches the FSB so that last 1/4 turn doesn't stress the metal. By the way, nice first post......dick. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astig20 2 Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Who would put a product on the market without even testing it first? Superhawk and few others were involved in the beta testing. Superhawk's earlier post: If you look here in this post. http://forum.saiga-1...12entry362212 I did some of the beta testing and had a similar failure as yours. Scott sent me a new clip that was a different metal than the original clip. So far i have put over 400 rounds through it with no failures. I think the failure results when you give that last 1/4 turn that's pretty tight. I filed a little off the side that touches the FSB so that last 1/4 turn doesn't stress the metal. By the way, nice first post......dick. I forgot to mention that I also bought one of these set-ups and the same thing happened to me within 20 rounds. So I am a little upset. -Dick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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