What's the most used LTL ammo

[VanKiller 322]

I was just wondering what the LE community is using the most of these days in their LTL loadings ? Brand and payload please....

Thanks Tom

[Bvamp 604]

In my various attempts to get a demo going down here with LE in the area, I have been told by more than one department, that they only have a couple of shotguns, which only the sgt's carry with LTL ammo in them, which they also told me more than once is either CS capsule or bean bag. (I guess they are not using rubber buckshot much down here anymore) I know there is a new tazer 12 gauge round thats out now, as well.

 

 

no clue what they use around the US, though....

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Tom,

 

The LTL shotgun round that we use are the Taser round at $100 a pop and 1 ounce bean bag loads. Everything else in shotgun is lethal. We also use bean bags and rubber batons in the 37mm and 40mm versions, which make great snot bubbles (all of the above listed are SWAT only). Patrol officers carry nothing but lethal in their shotguns. Other agencies around here use 1 ounce bean bags in their shotguns, but I do not remember the brand. I have a few stashed away, so give me a few days and I will pull some out and get a brand for you. I know that my personal S12 will cycle Winchester Feather Lights without a problem and still will not function with these bean bag loads. All of the LTL loads that I have shot in any shotgun have been pretty lethargic.

[BronCobraJet 80]

What is the defining point, where the distinction from non-lethal loads to lethal loads get used? I just find it difficult to fathom where the line would be drawn, as sometimes things can escalate pretty rapidly. Especially if you don't have time to change out rounds.

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Bron,

 

Here is an example of LTL usage. A person standing out in the street with a knife and threatening to kill themselves or anyone else that comes near them. If they are contained and there is no immediate danger to citizens, them one of the Crisis Intervention Trained officers will try and speak with them (roughly 50% of our road officers are trained) for as long as possible. If ALL ELSE fails and officers cannot get close enough to deploy a standard Taser, then an LTL round may be deployed. I know that it is a thin line between LTL/lethal and things do escalate quickly. The officer with the LTL will always be backed up by one or more officers with lethal capabilities in case the WORST possible scenario happens. I hope this helps answer your question.

[tover26 18]

Am I the only one wondering why we aren't talking about the 12 gauge Taser round?! Holy crap... so you shoot them with a 12 gauge LTL taser shell and then they get electrocuted? That's insane. Out of curiousity, is the Taser a slug and what FPS/range does it have?

 

In my mind, I'm seeing a bad guy looking at cop over the barrel of a 12 gauge... or in Georgia PD's case, a Saiga, and BOOM! - guy thinks he's been shot but instead he just got slugged so freaking hard he can barely breathe... but no wait, it's electrocution that's making it hard to breath.

 

Was it that LTL stuff wasn't incapacitating enough?

[unclejake 428]

Bron,

 

Here is an example of LTL usage. A person standing out in the street with a knife and threatening to kill themselves or anyone else that comes near them. If they are contained and there is no immediate danger to citizens, them one of the Crisis Intervention Trained officers will try and speak with them (roughly 50% of our road officers are trained) for as long as possible. If ALL ELSE fails and officers cannot get close enough to deploy a standard Taser, then an LTL round may be deployed. I know that it is a thin line between LTL/lethal and things do escalate quickly. The officer with the LTL will always be backed up by one or more officers with lethal capabilities in case the WORST possible scenario happens. I hope this helps answer your question.

When I saw your sentence under your K9's pic, it really touched me! I read it to my wife and she said for me to wish you and your wife a happy and safe pregnancy and a safe delivery. That is truly a real man stating that. All men should feel that way! Many blessings upon you and your household!

[GeorgiaPD 408]

 

When I saw your sentence under your K9's pic, it really touched me! I read it to my wife and she said for me to wish you and your wife a happy and safe pregnancy and a safe delivery. That is truly a real man stating that. All men should feel that way! Many blessings upon you and your household!

 

UncleJake,

 

Thank you. I'm honored by your comments and will be sure to pass them along to the wife. Blessing, good fortune and health to yours as well.

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Am I the only one wondering why we aren't talking about the 12 gauge Taser round?! Holy crap... so you shoot them with a 12 gauge LTL taser shell and then they get electrocuted? That's insane. Out of curiousity, is the Taser a slug and what FPS/range does it have?

 

In my mind, I'm seeing a bad guy looking at cop over the barrel of a 12 gauge... or in Georgia PD's case, a Saiga, and BOOM! - guy thinks he's been shot but instead he just got slugged so freaking hard he can barely breathe... but no wait, it's electrocution that's making it hard to breath.

 

Was it that LTL stuff wasn't incapacitating enough?

 

Eric,

 

There are a few problems with the Taser round. It has to be shot from their shotgun due to shell rim and bolt face mods that they performed when making them. The shell will not fire from a standard shotgun. It will not cycle in any auto gun, much like the standard and typical LTL rounds (not enough power). Each shell costs between $100 and $125 per round.

 

Now, once you get past the drawbacks of expense and dedicated gun, the thing works great. The extreme range is between 75 to 100 feet and looks similar to a slug. It does not hit nearly as hard as a bean bag round and you can still breath fine during the process. You just end up breathing hard at the end because you have used all of your air screaming cuss words..LOL Once it hits the target, it leaves the front base stuck into the skin or clothing and then several wires fall down and out of the rear end. Each wire has numerous barbs that will also attach to skin and clothing to help transfer the electronic signal. Once the round is deployed into a target, it automatically starts the electric signal and runs between 25 and 30 seconds. It does not have an on/off switch. It is truly devastating in what it will do as far as putting someone down without causing serious damage. If you go to the Taser websight, I believe that they have a demo video. I took a five second ride (twice) with the standard Taser and probes, but I damn sure would not be volun-told to take any longer than that. It is the most painful experience (as far as physical goes) in my life. The cool part is that as soon as the Taser is shut down, the pain is instantly gone with no other lasting effects other than the taste of ozone in the mouth (at least for me). They set the round for the long run time to give officers enough time to close the distance and detain the target. But if you touch the wires while doing this, you get to "TAKE THE RIDE" with them. Way cool, but way expensive in the shotgun round form.

Edited October 16, 2009 by GeorgiaPD

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Am I the only one wondering why we aren't talking about the 12 gauge Taser round?! Holy crap... so you shoot them with a 12 gauge LTL taser shell and then they get electrocuted? That's insane. Out of curiousity, is the Taser a slug and what FPS/range does it have?

 

 

It's a fin-stabilized unit, basically a big plastic slug, meant for use within 100 feet. The idea is blunt force plus neuro-muscular incapacitation. You get hit pretty hard by something that shocks the hell out of you for 20 seconds. These things are very dangerous and I hope they see very limited use in only the most dire of situations.

[Ryann 8]

Thanks for the extra info. I hope this doesn't become the next "Don't tase me bro!" but I'm glad to see you guys getting better LTL means of subduing the unruly and unwashed masses. It's got to suck that, for such a long time, your options were tackle/handcuff or shoot to maim/kill. I've never believed in tear gas because that would affect you guys too once you had to start getting physical with someone... and clubs have that whole brutality thing going. These rounds sound vicious. I hope I'm never on the recieving end of one... or even a normal taser. I went to the Taser site and woah, yeah, don't want to get hit with that.

[Eric Pate 478]

If I had to take a guess I'd say that the most often used round that tends to be less-than-lethal is probably .25 cal.

[Azrial 1,091]

I was just wondering what the LE community is using the most of these days in their LTL loadings ? Brand and payload please....

Thanks Tom

 

Hey Tom, years ago we played with the rubber Cart-A-Buck loads, both rubber buck shot and slugs. Both were liability prone mostly due to the potential for blinding or other maiming injury and were abandoned. We tried the Dragons Breath for distraction against some limited targets, but were disappointed in the reliability of the round.

 

I have never tried the OC Loads, but honestly, I have not heard good things about them. I would be curious if any officer here had a different exsperence with this load.